Why do i hate flying the F-5?

[twistking]

wow. that's quite a lot of feedback. thanks to all of you. i really appreciate it.

Quick question about Linear / Nonlinear Joystick mode. On first test, they felt quite similar to me. How do they differ? What to concentrate on when comparing the two?
How come the F-5 has this option, but other modules don't?
 

[MAXsenna]

@MAXsenna You said pitch. Was it an error? I'm talking about roll.

Ah! Apologies! I see the confusion now. I was talking both about pitch, regarding the displacement of the stick with FFB, if chosen in the special settings. AND roll regarding the spring limiters, regarding the controls indicator.
I should have clarified better!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Bucic]

10 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Ah! Apologies! I see the confusion now. I was talking both about pitch, regarding the displacement of the stick with FFB, if chosen in the special settings. AND roll regarding the spring limiters, regarding the controls indicator.
I should have clarified better!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

Just so we're at the same page. Limiter spring (spring limiter?) is only present in roll channel and the implementation in DCS is very logical.
Then, are you going to edit the long post about your findings? Or post a bug report on 'incorrect controls indicator'?

[MAXsenna]

11 minutes ago, Bucic said:

Just so we're at the same page. Limiter spring (spring limiter?) is only present in roll channel and the implementation in DCS is very logical.

Yes!

11 minutes ago, Bucic said:

Then, are you going to edit the long post about your findings?

Now you lost me. I will if somethings wrong, and you point me to it.

12 minutes ago, Bucic said:

Or post a bug report on 'incorrect controls indicator'?

Yes, I had to fly some more yesterday, (This hobby is too addictive), and I need to reference the manual a little more. At first glance, it seemed to contradict itself in some places.

[Bucic]

On 9/8/2023 at 8:19 AM, Volator said:

I totally agree with you, this is really annoying. Of course it's a high wing load aircraft, but I think the effects in AOA behavior are exaggerated in DCS. 

 

Something I'd like to add why I "hate" the F-5E in DCS: Take-off and landing characteristics. You can't do a proper, smooth rotation on take-off, the plane is glued to the ground and then suddenly jumps into the air. You also can't do a smooth two-wheels touchdown with aerobraking, the nose will always fall down the instant you touch down.

Both of these things can be done with the real F-5E, as several videos show on the internet.

 

In general it's a cool aircraft, but these aerodynamic flaws combined with the ever-lasting RWR bug (where ED stubbornly refuses to change it) make it unattractive.

While the pace of bug fixing for F-5E leaves a lot to be desired the openness to review bug reports is exemplary. Isolate an issue and post a bug report about it. Otherwise it's all vague. With all the opinionanated postings, especially about FM, it's no wonder noone from ED is chiming in to 'discuss our feelings.' The aerobraking seems to be a good example. F-5E doesn't have the control authority to perform a prolonged aerobraking. And even if the conditions are right the window is too short to make sense. To me it's 'airshow infestation'. To be able to do aerobraking you have to go in steeper and faster. While the first one is an option, the latter defeats the purpose. Speaking of short window, you do have to/should leave an airspeed margin to be able to lower the nose wheel gently instead of slamming it down.

 

Unstable TO:

Verify correct trim up preset and even lower it a bit. Instant action TO mission for example sets a huge ~30% stick back trim at the start of the mission for an aircraft with basically no ordnance.

Rotation speed too high. Not per manual, per in-game conditions. Try rotating earlier.

Attitude should be controlled 'by the horizon' not 'by stick.'

The following video shows time between pulling on the stick to rotation to be less than 1 second

https://youtu.be/ohGpGzCIS08?t=250

To contradict my point (?)
https://youtu.be/RugT96MHSfg?t=533

 

RL instructor pilot Tim Davies aka FJP
Master F-5 Circuits Like a Pro: Expert Tips from a Real RAF Flying Instructor - YouTube —

 

15 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Yes!

Now you lost me. I will if somethings wrong, and you point me to it.

Yes, I had to fly some more yesterday, (This hobby is too addictive), and I need to reference the manual a little more. At first glance, it seemed to contradict itself in some places.

No I haven't I will proceed to read it now <in Zuck tone>
https://imgix.bustle.com/inverse/89/2a/5c/9b/88bc/4be4/a7a5/8ac2f03608d5/a-really-good-memesubmitted-by-to-rzuckmemes-by-user-doors1pp1-margin-00px-00px-00px-00.jpeg

Edited September 9, 2023 by Bucic

[Bucic]

On 9/9/2023 at 12:07 AM, twistking said:

wow. that's quite a lot of feedback. thanks to all of you. i really appreciate it.

Quick question about Linear / Nonlinear Joystick mode. On first test, they felt quite similar to me. How do they differ? What to concentrate on when comparing the two?
How come the F-5 has this option, but other modules don't?
 

F-5E module is not IS the only module with that option.

You might want to follow this topic

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/323919-joystick-and-y-axis-asymmetry-question/

As far as I know it's still undocumented.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Bucic

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, Bucic said:

F-5E module is not the only module with that option.

You might want to follow this topic

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/323919-joystick-and-y-axis-asymmetry-question/

As far as I know it's still undocumented.

No, actually. The F-5 is the only module with that option! In the other modules you can't choose, but one should be able to.
Just quickly tested ALL the FC3 modules, and they are indeed different. The settings are not equally implemented and I have a feeling it's FFB related.

Thanks for the link to the thread, might make some comments later!

Cheers!

[Bucic]

37 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

No, actually. The F-5 is the only module with that option! In the other modules you can't choose, but one should be able to.

Ah, the Su-25 guy just posted a screenshot from his F-5E settings.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Bucic

[MAXsenna]

16 minutes ago, Bucic said:

Ah, the Su-25 guy just posted a screenshot from his F-5E settings.

 

Yeah, I was fooled at first too. But then I went into Special settings for the Su-25T, and then I had to read once more.

But still, it's a valid question and something that should be implemented in every module. Because I assume this is what it should be for every aircraft, (not helicopters obviously). I don't expect any change to happen for the FC3 aircraft, but it would be nice for FF modules. Both existing and future ones, gather that you have FFB that is. And I pretty much expect that everyone will have an FFB stick in the future. It does make a lot of difference. And to have that setting in the F-5, does actually make difference. 

So again, thanks for the link! 

[twistking]

thanks. will have a look at the thread!

@MAXsenna why do you expect everyone having FFB in the future? i am aware that the patent protection regarding FBB for joysticks has expired, but i also haven't seen any developments in this regard apart from some hand-made/boutique hardware projects. maybe the big manufacturers are still working in secret on affordable FFB products?! i think the original FFB joysticks from microsoft (?) were quite affordable back in the day... so i guess there is hope!

Edited September 17, 2023 by twistking

[=475FG= Dawger]

I always hated FFB sticks. Didn’t feel like a real aircraft at all. Hopefully they will someday be better. 

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, twistking said:

thanks. will have a look at the thread!

@MAXsenna why do you expect everyone having FFB in the future? i am aware that the patent protection regarding FBB for joysticks has expired, but i also haven't seen any developments in this regard apart from some hand-made/boutique hardware projects. maybe the big manufacturers are still working in secret on affordable FFB products?! i think the original FFB joysticks from microsoft (?) were quite affordable back in the day... so i guess there is hope!

 

If I understood WinWing correctly when I read some interview, it's on the way. Affordable? YMMV.

BUY, someday, I assume there will be some low-end ones. Wouldn't be surprised if TM will step up. Wouldn't be surprised if VBK and Virpil will follow WinWing. 
The issue with Microsoft's (I've got five of those now), is just that it was for desktop use, not powerful enough motors and not made for extensions. Have a horrendous hardware enforced deadzone, which I just discovered recently. You don't really notice initially, but I made a quick super simple DIY extension, to test how it would behave, Horrors!
Took my Dremel to an old bent ski pole from the 80s I found in the garage. Hehe! But it did show a great potential. Apart from the deadzone, the precision with a longer stick is very noticeable. I have 40 cm for my Warthog, this one is about 30 cm.
This forced me to finally get on with my mod project I have been putting off, because it's just too much fun to "fly". I will add a TM adapter to the base.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/WF2AHCN6K/force-feedback-2-to-thrustmaster-adapter-47mm?optionId=63516905&li=shops

A TM "tail piece" at the bottom of a pole, plastic/aluminum, and another of the one above on the top. And I have an old TM F22which I will scavenge the grip from, (same as the Cougar/Warthog grip), because it's plastic. And another tail piece for the grip.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/DCM5AA9W3/thrustmaster-joystick-tailpiece?optionId=61170632&li=shops

Will use the Warthog base for the buttons, just make an extension cable and plug it into the base.

Will do the resistor mod for the MS FFB2, and maybe mate two of them, to get more force.
To get rid of the deadzone, I will use an Arduino for the axis.
I will also re-use all the buttons in a mini button box from the FFB2.
We'll se how it goes...

1 hour ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I always hated FFB sticks. Didn’t feel like a real aircraft at all. Hopefully they will someday be better. 

Better than nothing. I can't "fly" helicopters without one anymore.

[Bucic]

I've just slapped together a dirty compilation of Xbox controller take off runs as I wanted to investigate that "never smooth" claim for myself.
Note:

- note how much I have to subtract from the initial trim setting set by DCS ; may be bug-report-worthy

- the bump after lift off is usually there because I have to find the G on the keyboard with my left hand that's in charge of the "stick"

- after take off I often barely touch the stick - I tend to fly by the trim hat

- ...

 

 

 

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, Bucic said:

because I have to find the G on the keyboard

VoiceAttack?

[Bucic]

27 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

VoiceAttack?

It would have been against my "must piss against the wind" credo AND it costs!

[Bucic]

@=475FG= Dawger https://forum.dcs.world/topic/333439-why-do-i-hate-flying-the-f-5/?do=findComment&comment=5288321

 Those were great! Am I right that the key to aerobraking in F-5 is not letting it pitch down right at the touchdown?

[=475FG= Dawger]

13 hours ago, Bucic said:

@=475FG= Dawger https://forum.dcs.world/topic/333439-why-do-i-hate-flying-the-f-5/?do=findComment&comment=5288321

 Those were great! Am I right that the key to aerobraking in F-5 is not letting it pitch down right at the touchdown?

Yes. It requires fairly sharp back stick at touchdown to avoid the nose falling. It feels like autospoilers deploying, which isn’t right but ground handling is notoriously bad in all simulations, even multimillion dollar ones. 

[twistking]

On 9/17/2023 at 6:31 PM, MAXsenna said:

If I understood WinWing correctly when I read some interview, it's on the way. Affordable? YMMV.

BUY, someday, I assume there will be some low-end ones. Wouldn't be surprised if TM will step up. Wouldn't be surprised if VBK and Virpil will follow WinWing. 
The issue with Microsoft's (I've got five of those now), is just that it was for desktop use, not powerful enough motors and not made for extensions. Have a horrendous hardware enforced deadzone, which I just discovered recently. You don't really notice initially, but I made a quick super simple DIY extension, to test how it would behave, Horrors!
Took my Dremel to an old bent ski pole from the 80s I found in the garage. Hehe! But it did show a great potential. Apart from the deadzone, the precision with a longer stick is very noticeable. I have 40 cm for my Warthog, this one is about 30 cm.
This forced me to finally get on with my mod project I have been putting off, because it's just too much fun to "fly". I will add a TM adapter to the base.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/WF2AHCN6K/force-feedback-2-to-thrustmaster-adapter-47mm?optionId=63516905&li=shops

A TM "tail piece" at the bottom of a pole, plastic/aluminum, and another of the one above on the top. And I have an old TM F22which I will scavenge the grip from, (same as the Cougar/Warthog grip), because it's plastic. And another tail piece for the grip.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/DCM5AA9W3/thrustmaster-joystick-tailpiece?optionId=61170632&li=shops

Will use the Warthog base for the buttons, just make an extension cable and plug it into the base.

Will do the resistor mod for the MS FFB2, and maybe mate two of them, to get more force.
To get rid of the deadzone, I will use an Arduino for the axis.
I will also re-use all the buttons in a mini button box from the FFB2.
We'll se how it goes...

[...]

Interesting read! Good luck with the modding!

You are right though. There is no reason why there should not be affordable ones at some point in the future. They are obviously more complex than non-motorized ones, but it's not rocket science either. Decent, affordable racing wheels are quite common and i don't see why a joystick should be more expensive to make. I agree with @=475FG= Dawger that the old microsoft sidewinders did not feel particularly great, but modern designs could surely improve.
 

[303_Kermit]

I just started to fly F-5E-3. It's genius! It feels like I don't have to touch a stick, but just to think where I want to fly. It's little brilliant plane. Pure genius. What A shame that MiG-21 isn't made that good. It's definitely one of planes, which makes me to spend my time inside it even if I'm not actually flying. From smooth constant speed turns to tightening corners plane makes everything with great ease. And it's more powerful than one can expect after reading performance charts!

I love your job ED/Belsimtek thank you!