Improved Pilot Damage Model

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

As of right now in game, pretty much any missile (large or small) that ends up touching your plane (large or small) kills your pilot. The only exception to this seems to be the FC3 aircraft that can take an excessive amount of damage before the pilot is killed. 

 

There are many in game examples that I can present here where the fatal impact of a missile is questionable but I have decided to use two just to get my point across. Apparently an AIM-9X, with a 9.4 kg warhead, that ends up hitting an F-14 or F-15E (some of the largest fighters in game) in the stern at relatively low speed proves almost always fatal for the entire crew. Tracks Below.

 

 

To further support the argument that pilots in DCS are killed too easily, I would like to point out a real world example.

 

Captain Scott O'Grady was an F-16 pilot who was shot down by an SA-6 over Bosnia and Herzegovina in June 1995. Granted, its impossible to know exactly what happened (i.e. where the missile hit his plane, whether or not it was a proxy fuse etc.) but he did survive and apparently with no major injuries. 

 

Other examples can be found here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_combat_losses_of_United_States_military_aircraft_since_the_Vietnam_War

F-14 Kill with 9x.trk F-15E Kill with 9x.trk

Edited September 9, 2023 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[SharpeXB]

A pilot wounding effect would be a good idea, especially in WWII although I think that’s already possible. 
I crash landed the Hornet once and the screen went dark like a blackout. Was that being wounded?

All the aircraft damage models seem like a WIP. There are actually very few “completed” 4th gen modules. The Hornet simply explodes every time it’s hit. Rarely is it ever just damaged. The A-10C and M-2000C can actually be damaged with the pilot surviving. 

[MAXsenna]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I crash landed the Hornet once and the screen went dark like a blackout. Was that being wounded?

Probably blackout due to G-forces. Did you bother to tough it out?

[Gunfreak]

I rarely die from missile hit in the F14, unless the missile hits me in the face. 

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

13 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I rarely die from missile hit in the F14, unless the missile hits me in the face. 

They actually just updated the pilot damage model to where now he can be killed in flight. Before, the only way to die from anything was to explode, from like a phoenix hitting you in the face, or crashing. Also before, Jester would always be incapacitated the second something came in contact with the jet. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Probably blackout due to G-forces. Did you bother to tough it out?

I hit the barrier at the end of the runway. My plane was stuck on the ground and my screen was dark like from g forces. 

[MAXsenna]

I hit the barrier at the end of the runway. My plane was stuck on the ground and my screen was dark like from g forces. 

Oh Lord! I'd say your head took off!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[cfrag]

I fail to see the distinction between the pilot getting hit and the pilot getting killed in modern aircraft. The net result is pretty much the same. While in warbirds there may have been edge cases where people wounded in combat could survive, survivability of a modern cannons that hit the cockpit and pilot is minimal. Shrapnel and shock wave from a missile detonating  a few feet away that breach your pressurized environment is also quite lethal, and modern fly-by-wire aircraft react unkindly to their wires being cut. There are some planes (the Hog comes to mind) where a hit to the plane's fuselage may not kill the plane, yes. That's where plane damage modelling comes in. I see no such distinction when the pilot is hit. We don't need a damage model for the pilot. If the pilot gets hit, IMHO it's literally Game Over for this individual. Do we really want to kid ourselves that we would be able to land a Falcon with a litre of our blood smeared across the dashboard? Heroic fantasies aside, that's an area I don't think we need to invest into modelling. 

[Gunfreak]

15 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I fail to see the distinction between the pilot getting hit and the pilot getting killed in modern aircraft. The net result is pretty much the same. While in warbirds there may have been edge cases where people wounded in combat could survive, survivability of a modern cannons that hit the cockpit and pilot is minimal. Shrapnel and shock wave from a missile detonating  a few feet away that breach your pressurized environment is also quite lethal, and modern fly-by-wire aircraft react unkindly to their wires being cut. There are some planes (the Hog comes to mind) where a hit to the plane's fuselage may not kill the plane, yes. That's where plane damage modelling comes in. I see no such distinction when the pilot is hit. We don't need a damage model for the pilot. If the pilot gets hit, IMHO it's literally Game Over for this individual. Do we really want to kid ourselves that we would be able to land a Falcon with a litre of our blood smeared across the dashboard? Heroic fantasies aside, that's an area I don't think we need to invest into modelling. 

I think all the pilots who successfully ejected and survived after their plane got hit by a missle, air to air or SAM Would disagree.(many of them quite badly wounded)

In say a campaign, ejecting over friendly territory would give you a very good chance of getting picked up. Over enemy territory you would need a simple equation calculating the chances of getting rescued (wounded/not wounded, distance from friendly lines etc.)

[cfrag]

35 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I think all the pilots who successfully ejected and survived after their plane got hit by a missle, air to air or SAM Would disagree.(many of them quite badly wounded)

Apologies for being unclear, I think we are in agreement here: all pilots who ejected are no longer flying the plane. You get hit as a pilot, your mission is over one way or another. What do we need to model a pilot's damage here is what I don't understand.

35 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

In say a campaign, ejecting over friendly territory would give you a very good chance of getting picked up.

Oh, yes, and it gives us a great opportunity to generate a CSAR mission. Note, however, that the evacuee pilot is currently not participating in the game, and damage modelling for the pilot is therefore not required. They sit tight, waiting rescue, and possibly slowly bleeding out.

35 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Over enemy territory you would need a simple equation calculating the chances of getting rescued (wounded/not wounded, distance from friendly lines etc.)

Yes, or generate a CSAR mission (as I do in my missions). So damage modelling for pilot comes down to: can they survive the hit, can they eject safely, and do they make it to the ground safely. Then we generate a unit (an M4 soldier, say) in enemy territory where the para touched down; if at the end of the mission that unit is still alive, the next iteration of this mission in a dynamic campaign can re-allocate that unit until it is picked up by CSAR or starved. 

I don't know about real life, but I doubt that any pilot who got shot down (even if only superficially wounded) would be cleared to fly the day after they got rescued. If there even was a plane for them to fly, that is. That's why I think pilot damage modelling would have next to nil implications for the game DCS: a pilot who got downed is done for that month, we can disregard them and send them on a well-deserved vacation. IIRC, not even flying goddess Col Kim Campbell herself took off the day after her Hawg was nearly obliterated, yet she was not injured herself. So what good is a pilot damage model?

Edited September 10, 2023 by cfrag

[bies]

Yes, it was often modeled well in older simulators.

Being shot, with deafened hearing, stunned was always very immersive, especially in VR. And especially if getting surprised by enemy fighter or AAA fire.

Returning home with badly damaged barely responsive aircraft, with pilot half blinded by the oil, wounds, shattered canopy, either ditching in the field in collapsing cracking airframe or attempting emergency landing, was one of my favouirite parts of the flight if successful saving my virtual pilot's life.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, bies said:

Returning home with badly damaged barely responsive aircraft, with pilot half blinded by the oil, wounds, shattered canopy, either ditching in the field in collapsing cracking airframe or attempting emergency landing, was one of my favouirite parts of the flight if successful saving my virtual pilot's life.

This! Landing damaged aircraft is the coolest thing you can do in a sim. Probably only applicable to WWII here though and the A-10. 
I’m not sure in a realistic sim how you simulate wounding though, really. Blood splattered on your canopy seems very Call of Duty. 

3 hours ago, cfrag said:

fail to see the distinction between the pilot getting hit and the pilot getting killed in modern aircraft.

Pretty simple. Wounded you survived, killed is self explanatory. In the context of a Dynamic Campaign this could be relevant. Any hit on the pilot shouldn’t be an insta kill. I don’t know how you convey to the player that they’ve been wounded though, as mentioned above. But some indication that this has occurred would be necessary. 

[cfrag]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Pretty simple. Wounded you survived, killed is self explanatory.

Agreed. I merely contend that for this we don't need a damage model. Hit to the cockpit, 40% Survivability. Eject, 90% survivability. So we have a 36% survivability for the pilot, let's say with 50/50 odds to be unharmed, making it a 18% probability for a pilot to escape unscathed, 18% injured. All stats purely conjecture on my part, of course. Point is: they are determined when the pilot is hit: the dice roll.

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

In the context of a Dynamic Campaign this could be relevant.

I don't see how - for modern engagements, maybe for WWII. A downed pilot won't be in the air the next day unless you simplify a campaign to merely pilot attrition. That's not a bad method game-wise, and I have nothing against that. It still would not need a pilot damage model. Either we assume the pilot is deemed unharmed and fit for flight, or they are a loss for the remainder of the engagement. The plane is a total loss anyway. Where does the pilot damage model come in except for the coin toss when the pilot's hit?

 

16 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But some indication that this has occurred would be necessary. 

Why? I really do not understand the difference that would make.

 

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Agreed. I merely contend that for this we don't need a damage model. Hit to the cockpit, 40% Survivability. Eject, 90% survivability. So we have a 36% survivability for the pilot, let's say with 50/50 odds to be unharmed, making it a 18% probability for a pilot to escape unscathed, 18% injured. All stats purely conjecture on my part, of course. Point is: they are determined when the pilot is hit: the dice roll.

Well I guess the question is; what’s the pilot damage model now? Is there one? Or are only kills simulated? 

14 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I don't see how

I’m assuming a Dynamic Campaign has a career aspect to it. You pilot acquires stats, awards etc. Killed means you career ends (if you want a hardcore option) if you’re wounded you get a medal and keep flying

18 minutes ago, cfrag said:

for modern engagements, maybe for WWII.

For modern era fixed wing there’s still flying the plane into friendly territory in order to eject. I can see helicopter crews being wounded.

But again I struggle to imagine what this effect would be in a realistic simulation. 

[SharpeXB]

A fully authentic sim should be able to replicate this 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Gunfreak]

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

A fully authentic sim should be able to replicate this 

 

 

We don't even have survivable water landings in DCS. 

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

On 9/10/2023 at 4:51 PM, Gunfreak said:

We don't even have survivable water landings in DCS. 

Not only that but even if you do manage to bail out/eject over the water, the pilot will immediately drown the second they touch the water.