Need help with targeting: Uncage/designate on cyclic AND collective??

[Smoky]

Hi folks

 

I've watched the dev videos and RTFM'd the weapon systems chapter a few times... I'm having trouble understanding the relationship between the designate/uncage button on the cyclic and the auto-designate/uncage button on the collective.

 

The manual seems to arbitrarily go back and forth about which button to use for designating a target after adjusting the tracking gate. Similarly, the manual seems to point to either button for different data-panel and abris target handoff scenarios.

 

Can someone please describe the difference of each designate/uncage button and when to use them?

 

Thanks!

[EinsteinEP]

Smoky,

 

There's a Shkval Uncage/Designate button on the cyclic and a Shkval lock target button on the collective: two different buttons, two different functions.

 

Hopefully this clarification will make those sections of text easier to understand. If not, re-post!

Edited March 8, 2009 by EinsteinEP

[Smoky]

I appreciate it the info...but I knew they were two different buttons, and what they are called. I'm looking for what they do/when to use them.

 

If this is a re-post then my apologies. Please point me to the existing post containing this information as I could not find one.

 

My confusion is this:

 

Both collective and cyclic offer "uncage".

 

 

Both collective and cyclic offer "designate" or "lock".

 

Is "designate" not the same thing as "lock" ?

 

 

As far as I can tell, the collective button only cages or uncages the Skvhal. Ie, it is locked down where the cyclic designate is clicked, or it "roams free".

 

The cyclic button seems to lock/unlock the Skvhal, and designate the target if the Skhval is over a target.

 

 

I feel like I'm missing something about that collective button though.

[JDski]

The most used funtion with the uncage/ cage Shkval button (O) is it will move your Skvhal to the position of your Helmet mounted sight. If you hold it down, it will follow your HMS.

Once you have your Shkval centered over the target, you then lock it with (enter).

[Smoky]

Ok good point. The collective button is used for the HMS..I forgot that (I don't use the HMS much yet).

 

Ok, so if I only use the cyclic button to designate or uncage, then I'm good to go? I just want to make sure I'm not cheating the weapons computer out of some useful data by not employing the collective button at some point in the process, perhaps in combination with the cyclic button.

 

I kept trying to determine why in the manual they go back and forth, and figure out a rule for myself. But it remains a mystery.

 

Thx

[Jack57]

If you use the Uncage/Designate Target button (o) without the HMS it will initially turn on the Shkval camera and thereafter start/stop the side scanning.

With the HMS on, it will move the Shkval to align with the HMS. It is then necessary to hit the Lock Target button once to range-find and stop the Shkval from free ranging.

You also hold down the Target Lock button to temporarily disengae a locked target if you wish to move the Shkval.

[Smoky]

Thank you! That definitely helps to clear things up a bit. :cheers

[Smoky]

Ok, after some practice and after reading your suggestions I have my mind wrapped around this now.

 

Use the collect uncage/cage button to enable side-scanning mode (uncaged, no target designated). When a target is found use the designator slew hat to place the tracking gate over the target. Moving the designator disables side scanning mode, but the Skvhal is not yet caged at this point.

 

After adjusting the tracking gate, designate the target with the cyclic button, then cage the Shkval. If there is a good lock the tracking gate will flash when the cyclic button is pressed. Caging the Shkval to the designated (locked) target means that the Skvhal will stay locked onto the target as the heli moves. If the target is moving, then "Mov Tgt" tracking must be enabled so the Skvhal will follow the designated and caged target.

 

Is there some variety to the order of operations? Is there an ideal order? Ie, when to cage, and when to designate?

 

 

I've also been practicing using the cage button with the HMS and with auto-turn to tgt enabled. THAT changed my world. Getting and keeping targets lined up is a lot easier now.

[Slick Twitchy]

In a (somewhat related) question. After I uncage the SHKVAL, is there any way to put it back into boresight mode (or in other words-keep it centered). The Center SHKVAL button doesn't seem to do anything. I use HMS to get move it around quickly, but is there any toher way to place it in the center quickly and keep it there (or just get it centered quickly). I think the the 'ctrl i' option fails to accomplish this. -of course I am missing something.

 

Also, as an aside, I have a hard time finding ground targets without labels on. Everything blends, and I have all graphics maxed out.

 

Anyway to skew the rockets reticle? And why do the rockets occasionally fail to fire if the SHKVAL reticle is out of range?

 

Any help on any of these topics would be great.

 

Having a blast with the game though.

[Frederf]

I know the center-Shkval (which is a totally fantasy function by the way, there's no such thing in the real Ka-50) works fine since I've used it plenty in the past.

 

The rockets reticule is an entirely passive indication of which way the rockets will fly so of course there is no way to slew it (except to fly the helicopter). The fire control computer is supposed to inhibit firing when out of maximum range, it does this for all weapons.

[Slick Twitchy]

Great thanks. And of course you were right regarding the center SHKVAL, I was hitting "L-ctrl i" (it is "R-ctrl i")

 

Is there any way to put the SHKVAL into boresight mode (e.g. locked into a forward looking position) w/o holding down "o" on the HMS.

[Frederf]

When first uncaged the Shkval is airframe-centric and is thus in a sort of boresight. Only after you laser range find to the ground does it switch to ground-stabilized. If you ever want to break ground stabilization without resetting the whole targetting system, simply cycle the laser standby off-on.

[AlphaOneSix]

When first uncaged the Shkval is airframe-centric and is thus in a sort of boresight. Only after you laser range find to the ground does it switch to ground-stabilized. If you ever want to break ground stabilization without resetting the whole targetting system, simply cycle the laser standby off-on.

 

That first part is true, but I couldn't get the second part to work. With the laser both on and off (using the switch next to the reset button), the Shkval ground stabilizes as soon as it is uncaged.

 

With the targetting system reset, the Shkval is boresighted, it just isn't giving you a picture, and as soon as you uncage it, the display comes on and it ground stabilizes. I don't think there is a way to keep the display on but also boresighted, so you can't use it as a magnified gunsight. ;)

[arneh]

I don't think there is a way to keep the display on but also boresighted, so you can't use it as a magnified gunsight. ;)

 

Actually, you can. But you must switch gun sight from auto to fixed (it's one of the switches on the weapons panel on the left). The gun (or rockets) will then fire straight ahead, and the shkval will show you where the rounds will hit (assuming you've lased for range, otherwise the hit point may be a little off).

[AlphaOneSix]

Actually, you can. But you must switch gun sight from auto to fixed (it's one of the switches on the weapons panel on the left).

 

I actually tried that, too, and the gun fired straight, but uncaging the Shkval still behaved as before (ground stabilized as soon as uncaged).

[arneh]

I actually tried that, too, and the gun fired straight, but uncaging the Shkval still behaved as before (ground stabilized as soon as uncaged).

 

Hmm. I have used the fixed gun sight Shkval several times. I'm at work right now so can't test, but I thought all I needed to do was enable fixed sight. Maybe I uncaged the Shkval before switching to fixed sight, though I wouldn't think that should make any difference.

[JDski]

Yes you can have the Skhval ack as a gunsight in boresight mode.

 

Go to 6:00 on this video.

 

download

Producer's Note #6 - Weapons Part 1

 

or

 

[AlphaOneSix]

Well that just means I'm doing it wrong. ;)

[Frederf]

Ok so I've learned a few things. First of all initial uncaging of the Shkval is not aircraft-referenced but INU-angular-datum referenced, so what I said before was wrong. It will keep its elevation and azimuth direction (target range = infinity) but won't follow a specific point on the ground.

 

As far as I know the only aircraft referenced Shkval view is when you switch the AT/GS switch to the Gun Sight position. When you do this the Shkval is always uncaged so resetting returns it to looking but straight ahead, pressing uncage engages the sweep look mode.

 

Gunsight is not necessarily bore sight, following the gun through it's motions, just simply centering on the 0/0 trav/elevation markers for the Shkval.

 

The MOV/FIX change is not necessary for a gunsight view, in fact MOV/FIX are identical if there is no laser active. If laser range finding is active I think MOV mode will elevate the gun for range but I'm not sure. It's confusing how the Shkval's range is continuously updated (I think this is a guess based on pitch and a flat earth assumption) and the HUD range is updated only on the collective lock button.

 

I guess it would help answer how to use these functions if I knew what goal you were after, aircraft directed observation or engaging a convoy with cannon or possibly another aircraft... this changes what is relevent to the discussion. Failing a goal I can only describe the entirety of the system and options which is a bit beyond me.

 

Overall I find these functions strange as I definitely use the traditional swiveling eyeball Shkval mode dominantly.

[Slick Twitchy]

As I have progressed (slowly) in the game, I see why you would like to understand the objective of my questions. I think it is merely a matter of feeling in control. But here is the scenario that initiated the question. As I swept through a target area, I needed to quickly implement my radar guided missile. But to get it into the game, I had to skew it from its last ground stabilized position. And I wanted to have the flexibility of targeting anything I was approaching. Therefore, I kind of wanted boresights (I know the tactics might be flawed, but I still wanted the option, in that tactics are evolving as I learn the "system")

 

And as referred to previously, there does seem to be a cannon boresight mode, and it is a start (does this boresight the SHKVAL for all purposes?). I also hope that when you guys refer to stuff, you could refer to key inputs (e.g. "LWin+Home= [Easy Startup Mode] just to ease the learning curve for me.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Slick Twitchy

[JasBird]

I have a few questions aswell. Trying to get into the weapons system myself. After watching the trainning and reading the manual, I'm still a little confused.

 

1. I use helmet sight and then hold "O" to slew the camera to the point on the ground. Then I fine tune to aim at target.

 

2. Then I should use "Enter" to lock on target, correct?

 

The bigger cirlce which I assume represents the missile head, I have problems locking onto the target. If I use autohover I have to use rudder to place it over the small circle then it will give me the C for launch permission. Sometimes I hold the "Enter" key down and it just starts to count.

 

Do I have to move the helicopter to join both circles then press "Enter"?

 

I also belived there the track to target button would move the helicopter on the target?

 

I belive I'm doing something wrong aswell, because sometimes I can slew after I have pressed Enter which is supposed to lock the target. According to manual you should hold down Enter to adjust after lock, but usually I can slew without holding Enter down.

 

What is best procedure to move from one target to next. Just press "O" to ungaceg then move "O" again and then "Enter" for lock? Or do we need to press "Backspace" to reset away from current target?

 

Lot's of questions here :music_whistling: I wathced the weapons trainning video and it all seemed so easy but I was wrong. On my first weapons mission the autohover just wanted to turn away from my target all the time. I turned on/off autoheadin, track to target etc, from waypoint to target on the INS panel etc, but I figured it was just that I had trimmed with rudder input? Atleast I avoided it on this mission.

 

Cheers

[Frederf]

Slick Twitchy, I can guarantee you that the fastest way to employ your Vikhr missiles (laser guided by the way, there ain't nothin' on the Ka-50 that has anything to do with radar... ok the radar altimeter but that's it!) would be using the HMS for rough aiming, some Shkval slew to get it on target, and a designate press for auto-tracking/range. The gunsight mode I'm pretty sure only works with the cannon. If you don't have that little pinky trigger flipped up the TV screen is just gunna be gray.

 

----

 

LeadBird, you don't have to use the HMS. The HMS only determines your initial uncage direction. With the HMS it'll uncage onto the HMS sight, with no HMS active and an active PVI NAVTGT it'll uncage onto that, and with nothing it'll uncage straight ahead. It just speeds up the process by getting you close to start.

 

The collective "lock" button is used once the gates (properly adjusted) are over the target to get a laser range, ground stabilize (if range is successful), and to start automatic tracking if it recognizes a target in the gates.

 

The big Vikhr circle represents the launch parameter limits so you put the target designation circle in the launch parameter circle, get the "C" that means the automatic weapon control system says you're in parameters, and then you release the weapon with the release weapon trigger.

 

The Turn-to-Target (Q) is an autopilot function that will try to yaw the helicopter to point toward the Shkal point of interest for weapons release. It's most useful when hovering.

 

You only have to hold "Lock" to slew off an active tracking target (TД). If you're not tracking then you can slew whenever you want freely.

 

Moving on to the next target (if they are close together and everything's fine) is usually done simply by slewing the Shkval hat to move the Shkval to the new target. If you want to move the Shkval away from a current tracking target (TД is showing) you have to hold the "Lock" button down while you slew off the tracking target. If you want to track a new target, either release the "Lock" button on the new target or tap "Lock" if you released it before you slewed to the new trackable target.

 

Resetting the targetting computer is how you should end a particular attack but you don't have to reset between multiple targets of the same attack.

 

The AP only has 20% authority on all channels so if you aren't maintaining a heading hold on autohover, then you need to trim the rudder manually close to balanced for the autopilot to have a hope of being able to hold your heading or to turn you to target using the Turn to Target function.

[Eggcake]

Sometimes I really have difficulties with the auto turn. Sometimes it works perfectly, then again it's doing real strange things. Turning my chopper away, just turning in circles (although the target ISNT directly below me ;) ) etc.

Really don't know what I'm doing wrong then. ENR is off, Alt is also off. Bank/Pitch is on.

 

Does anyone know a possible error cause?

[AlphaOneSix]

ENR is off, Alt is also off. Bank/Pitch is on.

 

Does anyone know a possible error cause?

 

Is Heading channel engaged on the autopilot? Or just Bank and Pitch? Heading channel needs to be on.

[JasBird]

Thanks guys. I've watched the producers videos and they really cleared up a few things.

 

Frederf, thanks, yes I figured out the HMS and knows how that works.

 

Did a new trainning mission today and now the same problem happended as my first attempt. I stop in a hover to start finding targets, but autohover just keeps me spinning in cirlces. I go back to stable hover, trim and release controls, back on autohover and then it spins or goes nuts??

 

I taught I really had this sorted, I know all auto channels on, flight director off, trim etc. Difference this time was that I could not get auto track target and ground moving target activated. Did the startup on top of my head, but not sure what was missing? Laser on, weapons system on etc. I belive I turned off auto heading aswell, but didn't help, still spinning.

 

Does the navigation computer make autohover spin in circles? I turn of Waypoint on Radio nav panel since I could not activate turn to target, but to no avail.

 

Also this trim is making me nuts. I have a MSFF2, I trim release trim and controls within 0.5 seconds I hope :), but then sometimes it just goes bananas anyways, especiall if I try to engage autohover right afterwards.

 

Do we need to keep the both circles togheter after missile is fired, or just to get lock?

 

Thanks for helps guys.

 

See you in the sky :pilotfly:

Edited March 13, 2009 by LeadBird
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