MFSSB settings for best realism/usability

[manashttu]

2 hours ago, TripRodriguez said:

Thank you @manashttu perfect!  Man that's not exactly the most obvious filename for retail customers LOL.  I guess that EX2_J2_2 must be the model number I could have gotten from the packaging or something. 

Haha.  Yeah---the naming conventions are pretty obscure.  I just found it a while back by opening one after the other.

[manashttu]

I recently procured an Orion2 MFSSB base and grip, having read through this and other threads about the potential to tweak the physical gimbal and software.  I must say it was somewhat out of curiosity to compare to my previous indulgences which were second-hand purchases of an RS R3 Lighting (Meant be be lightning?) with a Warthog grip w/ custom angle-mount and an R3 Ultra with an RS Viper grip.  

In the end, with the following physical and software tweaks, the WW MFSSB compares nicely to the R3 Lighting, which I already prefer slightly over the R3 Ultra.

First the physical adjustments:  I 3-d printed Beezer's excellent insert for each axis to place around the bearing which makes contact with the force sensors.  To do this, I loosened (but did not remove) the MFSSB pcb's, inserted Beezer's spacer, then re-tightened the pcb.  This set the spacer evenly within the force sensor and still allowed for very slight movement in the center.

Then, I installed all six spring plates on each axis, and used the set screws to center the axis while connected to the software.  This took a bit of fiddling and adjusting, but it wasn't difficult or too time consuming. 

Beezer's spacers and the spring plates gave a nice feel with very slight movement around center and a nice, virtually undetectable (by feel) transition from center spring to force application.

To the software tweaks:  

Even with Beezer's insert, there remained a deadzone if the MFSSB Config settings were left on "Force Only".  Physically, I found this deadzone desirable, as it allowed what I perceive to be pretty realistic initial movement of the stick.  To eliminate the dead zone and the oft-criticized software transition from displacement to force sensing, I came down to the following MFSSB Config and Dead Zone settings:

null

nullWith these tweaks, there is virtually no software flat spot or deadzone at either the center or in the transition from displacement to force sensing.  

 

As far as comparison of the three bases and grips now:  I really like the WinWing F-16 grip.  It has excellent build quality, and, much like my WW throttles, I love the switches (especially the trigger).  I'm torn now between the R3 Lighting base and the WW base---they perform quite similarly.  The RS software is outstanding, I have to say.  The Ultra base---despite the rave reviews online, I find it a bit sponge-y, for lack of a better term.  I prefer the firm feel of the Lighting and WW bases.  I rather like the very slight, free movement in the center of the WW base now that the physical tweaks were done.  Without Beezer's insert, the free movement on center was way too big.

Can't thank Beezer enough for sharing the stl file of his spacer design.  It is brilliant.

The sum of the matter is this:  If I were confronted with the choice of dishing out $1,100 to $1,200 for an R3 and grip shipped to the U.S. vs the $500 or so shipped for an MFSSB (with these physical adjustments) and the wonderful WW F-16 grip, I'd strongly consider the latter.  

Hope this is helpful.null

[Beezer]

Glad it's working out for you! Hope it works for anybody who uses it. I have been loving the MFSSB since.

Papamiraculi was the real genius. I'm just the guy with too much time on my hands and a CAD program...

[Papamiraculi]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Beezer:

Glad it's working out for you! Hope it works for anybody who uses it. I have been loving the MFSSB since.

Papamiraculi was the real genius. I'm just the guy with too much time on my hands and a CAD program...

Nah, I'm no genius. I just like to tinker with things  Thank YOU for the 3D file.

I don't have access to a 3D printer so I will have to try an online 3D printing service I guess. 

For the time being, I'll stick to the cheap option: cardboard and paper slips.

Edited March 21, 2024 by Papamiraculi

[Outlaw]

I tired the cardboard trick however I still see a small step (smaller than before), currently have 2 reeds on pitch axis and 1 on roll. 

Simpro setting, Fore+Displacment, value set to 29%

 

Regarding Deadzone, at the moment I have it at zero as I managed to tune it without the need for it, my understanding the deadzone required due to the physical movment of the stick, is that correct? 

[manashttu]

10 hours ago, Outlaw said:

I tired the cardboard trick however I still see a small step (smaller than before), currently have 2 reeds on pitch axis and 1 on roll. 

Simpro setting, Fore+Displacment, value set to 29%

 

Regarding Deadzone, at the moment I have it at zero as I managed to tune it without the need for it, my understanding the deadzone required due to the physical movment of the stick, is that correct? 

The key for me to virtually eliminate the step in transition from displacement to force was to set the displacement value at 7 %.

The 2 % dead zones I used were to simply help with re-centering.  Not sure it's even necessary, as it seems DCS has a hard-coded deadzone on the Viper even when set to zero in game.

[Outlaw]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:09 PM, manashttu said:

The key for me to virtually eliminate the step in transition from displacement to force was to set the displacement value at 7 %.

The 2 % dead zones I used were to simply help with re-centering.  Not sure it's even necessary, as it seems DCS has a hard-coded deadzone on the Viper even when set to zero in game.

Is yours recentering in simapp pro? Or the deadzone needed there

[Outlaw]

On 1/30/2024 at 12:58 AM, Beezer said:

Papamiraculi: you, Sir, are a genius.

I started using force sensing sticks way back when with the Saitek X65F. Must've been about 20 years ago. Received it as a gift, and hated it. However, as time went on I practiced with it a lot, got used to it, and grew to love it. Fast forward to a few months back I upgraded to the winwing MFSSB, and have been trying to dial it in for a while now. I too found the stepping to be a problem, and the force only mode was like trying to use a stick with a massive center deadzone. I purchased the extension for the stick, and have been using the fully realistic mode with some good results. Though I find delicate work (like aerial refueling) to still be too fidly within the small confines of the movement of the stick.

When I saw your post I was intrigued. Owning a 3D printer, I engineered a little scoop that does just what your cardboard does, and voila... so far, so good. I too now have the smooth linear movement I'm after.

I posted my settings below, which may need to be tweaked. I am using the force only mode now at 30% strength (with the extension, and the same reed setup as you have), and a 2% deadzone. To me, this is what the stick should feel like. It has a little movement, but is completely force sensing otherwise. Winwing should supply little things like this with the stick.

My only other wish for this stick would be quick settings to change the force on the fly. I had that option on my old X65f, and I miss it. Was great for keeping a heavier hand for hard manoeuvring, and then quickly switching to a lighter force for refueling. 

I threw in the STL file if anyone else here has a 3d printer and wants to punch a couple out for their rigs, or make it better.

One small advantage of this little gizmo is that it makes re-centering the stick real easy after you change out the reeds. If it isn't centered, it doesn't fit in!

Thanks again.

MFSSB Insert.stl 91.59 kB · 30 downloads

Would this 3D print break inside the Joystick as its 2 thin? 

[Beezer]

Hasn't yet!

It's thin... but it isn't being pulled apart, just wedged in. So the other parts just push against it. You could probably print it out of something stronger if you were concerned. I used standard PLA, but you could go for PLA+ or PETG for something tougher. ABS would be great, but it never prints clean for me.

[Outlaw]

@Beezer thank you kind sir for the STL file, I did the 3d print with PLA and ABS, I have inserted ABS and so far so good. 

I have it set as Force only with 25% X-axis ( 1 reed) and 27%-Y axis (2 reeds). It feels more like Saitek X65 (I love that stick).

I found out its better to losen the pcb instead of the 2 calibration screws, that way, the calibration stays intact, didnt need to add any dead zone.

 

null

[modsat]

I am currently waiting for my WW MFSSB that is on the mail. I decided to look into setup in advance, and I've got to say: reading this thread has been an emotional rollercoaster.

I'm happy to hear that the ingenuity of the community has solved the "step-problem". A huge thanks to Papamiraculi and Beezer for the discovery and print-file, I will find someone to print it for me. I have a few questions though.

1. How many prints are needed? Do I just need two (one for x-axis and one for y-axis?).

2. What are these "reeds" that you guys are talking about (I'm not at native english speaker)? What do they do?

On 3/20/2024 at 5:07 PM, manashttu said:

I installed all six spring plates on each axis, and used the set screws to center the axis while connected to the software. 

what are these spring plates (have not seen them mentioned elsewhere)?

 

On 4/4/2024 at 6:52 PM, Outlaw said:

I found out its better to losen the pcb instead of the 2 calibration screws, that way, the calibration stays intact, didnt need to add any dead zone.

What is the pcb? Did you not "install all six spring plates on each axis" like Manashttu?

I'm a bit scared of the install and setup. Trying to get an idea of what I'm in for.

[Beezer]

@modsat

Congrats on the upcoming hardware! Sit back, relax, and grab a beer. It isn't too difficult, and will become clear once you get your stick.

Print 2 scoops if you can, maybe 3 or 4 for backups if you have to have them printed elsewhere. I printed only 2, and haven't had to replace anything yet, but i have my own printer so making replacements would be easy for me. They are tiny, take little time to print, and should cost very little if you have to hire the service.

The reeds are the same as the spring plates. They are small metal strips that will arrive with your stick. They can be added or removed to adjust the physical stiffness of the moveable portion of your stick. Once it arrives, you can use the included hex wrenches to take apart the stick and it becomes very apparent. You can install up to 3 reeds per direction (X+ X- Y+ Y-) for a total of 6 per axis (X Y). It is to your own preference how hard you want that half axis to be, and it can be asymmetrical if you want.

As for loosening the PCB, @Outlaw might have been the first to try that trick. I haven't yet! But he's referring to the circuit board behind the reed setup.

You can find documentation on the WinWing website, though I found it lacking. It might be intimidating, but pulling that stick apart gets you familiar with it real quick.

[Outlaw]

17 hours ago, modsat said:

I am currently waiting for my WW MFSSB that is on the mail. I decided to look into setup in advance, and I've got to say: reading this thread has been an emotional rollercoaster.

I'm happy to hear that the ingenuity of the community has solved the "step-problem". A huge thanks to Papamiraculi and Beezer for the discovery and print-file, I will find someone to print it for me. I have a few questions though.

1. How many prints are needed? Do I just need two (one for x-axis and one for y-axis?).

2. What are these "reeds" that you guys are talking about (I'm not at native english speaker)? What do they do?

what are these spring plates (have not seen them mentioned elsewhere)?

 

What is the pcb? Did you not "install all six spring plates on each axis" like Manashttu?

I'm a bit scared of the install and setup. Trying to get an idea of what I'm in for.

Before the 3d printed part, I tried to replicate my Saitek X65 settings and I got really close with it (I fly online F18, F5E, F15, , F14, M2000C, Huey, Hind)

For starter you can try the following MFFSB force settings before you do any thing in terms of modding, 

X and Y axis force to 30% or below, mine was 25%

Mode set to Force + Displacment with displacment % set to 40%

In game DCS, Y-axis set to user curve "attached" (you can tune the curve to your liking by making it more or less sensitive), some jets I have the same curve for the X-axis.

 

To answer your questions

1- In terms of 3d printed part, I printed it at the shop as I didnt have a 3D printer, however they mentioned it need to be printed really slow to get it correctly. Install one 3d printed part for each axis (make sure to print spares so its ready when needed).

2- Limit reeds (Spring plates) are small metal plates acts as resistance plates or springs to stop the physical movement of the axis, I have 2 reeds for Y-axis, and 1 for X-axis (mentioned in the manual for MFSSB kit here MFSSB Manual

3- PCB is the circuit board

 

The way I did it is to loosen the 2 screws for PCB in picture marked in black box instead of the red box

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2024 by Outlaw

[modsat]

@Beezer @Outlaw

Thanks a bunch guys. I'm honestly pretty anxious about it, but your explanations have made me a lot more optimistic about making it work. I guess I will have to trust, that when the stick arrives, I will understand it from seeing it.

I'm going to do the 3d-mod because the "step" is absolutely the type of thing to annoy me. It seems like your solution is really good, and I've gotten a buddy to promise to print the thingamajig for me. If only I can manage to install it without destroying either the hardware or my sanity.

If I can ask another question. the OP mentioned the 12 degree axis rotation on the real f16 stick. Has anyone found a solution to this? I'm curious because it relates to a problem I'm having now. Right now I have a TM Warthog and having recently side-mounted it, I experience problems with my axis input. It seems that the rotation of the axis is tilted counter clockwise, so that when I pull straight back on the stick I induce unwanted roll. To only input Y-axis I have to pull the stick diagonally back and to the right (or push forward to the left). I don't know, but I have a feeling that this has to do with it being designed for center mount, where this movement is more natural. Have any of you experienced this or know anything about hwow to fix it?

Edited April 10, 2024 by modsat

[Beezer]

I have seen that the real stick is both rotated, and tilted forward. The rotation seems easy, you can simply mount your stick rotated to the ergonomics of your hand and seating position. Of course that depends on if your mount will support the angle. The stick rotation is slightly adjustable with a lock screw at the base, so you might be able to offset the rotation a bit there.

As for the forward tilt, there is a solution from this site: https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=172

I haven't pulled the trigger on that one due to shipping costing WAY too much for my liking... but it sure would be nice.

I have my stick side mounted as well, and haven't needed to adjust the rotation at all.

[modsat]

10 hours ago, Beezer said:

I have my stick side mounted as well, and haven't needed to adjust the rotation at all.

That is comforting to know. The stick arrived today, and I can't stand that I won't be able to toy with it until monday morning when I get off work. I hope dialing it in won't be too bad, otherwise I'll be back here crying 

[2IAE-CrashBG]

Thanks for this thread, everyone. It was very useful for me, finally managed to get a useable sidestick. With the 3d printed piece, angle adapter from qr4 and just a bit of rotation on the grip, it's been transformational. I advise caution when setting up the rotation if you are to be running a side stick, as it might be too straining on the angle adapter.

Currently running force only mode, at about 4.5kg, which is just comfortable enough to be able to do decent formation keeping, refueling and the more precise operations.

I have never been able to try the fssb, so I cannot compare, but after getting everything together it's exactly what I imagined it would be like, a plane that actually responds the way I want it to. Need to give BMS a go at some point to compare 

[modsat]

I've used my MFSSB for a week now, and I am completely in love with it. I've seen people talk about it being a difficult transition, but I had a feeling that a force sensing stick would be intuitively better for me and I was right. I am already way more precise and comfortable with my input. Now I am completely sold on the Viper, and don't see myself going back to flying center stick.

In terms of the actual thread:

I've have not yet gotten a 3D print. Someone printed some for me, but the print did not turn out well. But so far I'm not really needing it. I think the stick feels fine. And while I can detect the "step" in the software, so far I have not noticed it while flying. Maybe the problem differs from unit to unit, cause I can only just detects it in the softeare. I have not installed any reeds. I tried it without first, and I find the stiffnes of the spring fine for my wrist. I run FORCE + DISPLACEMENT, with 25% on X-axis and 45% on Y-axis. I gotta say. I find the stick nice and precise - precise enough for a schmuck like me to do arial refueling. I'm still looking for a 3D print because I want to see what the fuzz is about :P. Also, I would not mind the movable zone being a bit smaller. So I will see if the 3D-print Force only hits the sweet spot for me. But so far, I am loving this stick as it is. No mods other than software tweaks, and I am very happy. I am extremely happy with it - and I'm glad I spent the extra money for vibration. It's a nice silent (in unrealistic) indicator to have.

So if you're pondering getting it but is scared by this thread, fret not! I think it's worth every penny as is.

Edited April 20, 2024 by modsat

[Papamiraculi]

I couldn't get a 3D either so I just used plastic strips cut out from packaging (the transparent bendable type, e.g. from a batteries package) and squeezed them in the gap between the head and the sensor, similar to my early cardboard shim mod (see above).  The cardboard turned out to be soft soft, the plastic is just perfect. 

[Gunfreak]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:46 PM, VirusAM said:

I am continuosly tweaking my  settings, for the rolling issue, i suggest to reduce the deadzone and increase the percentage of the physical movement in respect to the pressure sensor.

Sorry, I  have lost your comment and question. 

About  the steps, I don't understand what you mean.

EDIT: I am watching the video you posted above. I'll try to understand, replicate and I will let you know

About Rel4y I think he would need access to an MFSSB to design something, anyway, head'up as qr4rigs just released new extentions for Winwing bases.

I bouught a 12cm one for my center mounted orion 2, and a raked one for the MFSSB, so we can finally have the 13° decline.

this is  a picture of it  (from his website) 

I bought it from his ebay shop.

 

Sorry for quoting an old post.

But how do you find the raked one. I'd like to try it. But with shipping and VAT it comes to $100

[Beezer]

@Gunfreak I think the one you found was probably the only one out there so far. (https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=172)

I'm in the same boat... I'd love to order one, but I'd spend more on shipping than what the product costs. Kinda nuts until a better option comes along.

Or I order it and don't tell the wifey until a lot later...

 

[Gunfreak]

32 minutes ago, Beezer said:

@Gunfreak I think the one you found was probably the only one out there so far. (https://qr4rigs.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=172)

I'm in the same boat... I'd love to order one, but I'd spend more on shipping than what the product costs. Kinda nuts until a better option comes along.

Or I order it and don't tell the wifey until a lot later...

 

Sadly I can't get out of the grocery store without spending $150 for a few days of food. And given I've spent thousands on flight sim hardware the last few years.(including a winwing F16 HOTAS just for F16) I can't spend 100 bucks on a tiny little thingy like that.

 

[My_Name_Jeff]

On 1/29/2024 at 3:58 PM, Beezer said:

Papamiraculi: you, Sir, are a genius.

I started using force sensing sticks way back when with the Saitek X65F. Must've been about 20 years ago. Received it as a gift, and hated it. However, as time went on I practiced with it a lot, got used to it, and grew to love it. Fast forward to a few months back I upgraded to the winwing MFSSB, and have been trying to dial it in for a while now. I too found the stepping to be a problem, and the force only mode was like trying to use a stick with a massive center deadzone. I purchased the extension for the stick, and have been using the fully realistic mode with some good results. Though I find delicate work (like aerial refueling) to still be too fidly within the small confines of the movement of the stick.

When I saw your post I was intrigued. Owning a 3D printer, I engineered a little scoop that does just what your cardboard does, and voila... so far, so good. I too now have the smooth linear movement I'm after.

I posted my settings below, which may need to be tweaked. I am using the force only mode now at 30% strength (with the extension, and the same reed setup as you have), and a 2% deadzone. To me, this is what the stick should feel like. It has a little movement, but is completely force sensing otherwise. Winwing should supply little things like this with the stick.

My only other wish for this stick would be quick settings to change the force on the fly. I had that option on my old X65f, and I miss it. Was great for keeping a heavier hand for hard manoeuvring, and then quickly switching to a lighter force for refueling. 

I threw in the STL file if anyone else here has a 3d printer and wants to punch a couple out for their rigs, or make it better.

One small advantage of this little gizmo is that it makes re-centering the stick real easy after you change out the reeds. If it isn't centered, it doesn't fit in!

Thanks again.

MFSSB Insert.stl 91.59 kB · 77 downloads

Do you, by any chance plan to sell these, as I do not have a 3d printer and my school, even if it does I probably won't be authorized to use it for private purposes.

[101Feel]

Hello Everyone, after much reading on the internet about the MFSSB from winwing, and since people were not all satisfied with the mfssb, it was only after this thread I decided to buy it because I thought : Hey, I will figure out something.

 

After much trial and error, I found one easy solution. I measured with a filler gauge the gap between the bearing and the pressure sensor and after that found that the fuel injection hose clamp were really near that thickness I needed. Too thick in his original form, I sanded it until it fitted tight. It wont compress since made of stainlessSteel, cost about 3$ top. Been using this for a full month and its awesome. 

 

The settings are now in force only and feel Ultra precise.

 

In the picture you see the Clamp on the Sand paper, and on the other the clamp fitted between the bearing and the pressure sensors.

 

For reference The fuel clamp I used was Tridon FI8 Fuel hose clamp and the sandpaper was 3M #02433 coarse emeral paper. Im but other type of similar clamp and sandpaper would fit too.

[Papamiraculi]

Am 26.8.2024 um 05:00 schrieb My_Name_Jeff:

Do you, by any chance plan to sell these, as I do not have a 3d printer and my school, even if it does I probably won't be authorized to use it for private purposes.

The cheap and easy solution is to cut some plastic strips and squeeze them in the gap. I've been using mine for months now and it still works flawlessly. Cost: 0$ (used some transparent plastic of a package of batteries I would have thrown away). As long as it is thin enough, flexible and does not give in it will work. You can layer them, as most plastic packaging is too thin for the gap. You just have to really squeeze it tight in there. 

 

The metal solution by @101Feel above is the ultra durable version of it