Spotting Dots Experiment true/false -> MissionOptions to be enforced by Builders

[Thamiel]

I get it, its WiP.

Also, I'm not a regular PvP or SP player, my domain really is PvE/MP. This experiment kills the immersion and returns DCS into a video game where you hunt pixels instead of looking for targets with your eyes and sensors. It is a gamechanger, and I am afraid, not for the better:

1) I dont need the TGP anymore when attacking ground targets with the A-10. Just follow the black squares. Heck, I dont need the A-10 anymore, i can find my echo point without coordinates or TGP just by looking out of the canopy of my P-47.

2) It devalues specific capabilities brought to the game by certain modules. Who cares about the Harrier and its FLIR sensor picking out possible targets in front of you and pointing them out in your HUD when you have black squares at those precise positions already visible? Now everyone has a error-free 360° "FLIR".

3) You dont really have a choice in using it or not. In a competitive PvP environment, this is a must have or you are out of the sky. Once DCS had a reputation of a Sim where you can use stealth and surprise to your advantage. Now not so much.

Again, I get it, its WiP. But it should be lined up in the list of other "easy shortcuts" along with "easy communications" "G-effects" and so on, so mission builders could decide how to enforce it or leave it to the player.

Clear six!

Edited October 20, 2023 by Thamiel

[SharpeXB]

I think whatever solution is arrived at, it should be universal and good for all. If it’s a server/mission setting that’s just divisive for MP

If you see things which are odd it’s best to make a bug report with screenshots, system and settings. Otherwise it’s not possible to evaluate the new feature. Personally I find so far that it actually looks really great on my system. But apparently that perception varies. So specific reports are needed. 

[Thamiel]

13 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I think whatever solution is arrived at, it should be universal and good for all. If it’s a server/mission setting that’s just divisive for MP

If you see things which are odd it’s best to make a bug report with screenshots, system and settings. Otherwise it’s not possible to evaluate the new feature. Personally I find so far that it actually looks really great on my system. But apparently that perception varies. So specific reports are needed. 

I go with the first part of your sentence, I fail to see how it relates to the second one: if it is a server / mission setting, it cannot be divisive for MP, it is by definition universal (and therefore good) for all - on that very server.

I dont see things which are odd. I said it before: I get it, its WiP. Its not a bug, its a feature. Its meant to be there so it can be tweaked and pimped. All I ask is that for the duration of this process, restrict it to certain servers, so there is at least a choice to play competitivly on even ground, because as I pointed out earlier: if left to the player, there is no real choice in the PvP/MP environment. And thats not even covering the real clumsy "black pixels are bad" immersion breaking part.

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, Thamiel said:

if it is a server / mission setting, it cannot be divisive for MP

I believe @SharpeXB's point is that a any play-style affecting server setting bifurcates the server population along the line: servers that enforce that setting, and servers that do not. 

1 hour ago, Thamiel said:

it is by definition universal (and therefore good) for all - on that very server.

Personally I take a dim view on most server settings that seem to enforce a certain play style that deviates from what we see in "normal" (Joe Sixpack) mission play: enforced non-automated cold starts (that was a discussion point not so long ago), speeding on taxiways (I even wrote a script to accomplish that since it was requested - only to face the wrath of my players who do not take kindly to the "Gazpacho police" lining the airfield), etc. Whenever you (as server owner/admin) try to enforce a rule, you'll have people who complain and leave the server.

I want people to enjoy their stay on mine, so I set my server to be just like "normal" mission play, leave it to my players to hash out their disagreements, and occasionally ban a griefer (who deserve life-long imprisonment under ground and daily beatings -- but then again, I'm a liberal bleeding heart). So if DCS's new way of spotting units is a black dot, it should be that way in on-line as well. It's the new normal, and therefore expected. If the new normal poses a challenge to your accustomed play style, adapt, and enjoy. Because that's what we are here for. 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by cfrag

[Thamiel]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

I believe @SharpeXB's point is that a any play-style affecting server setting bifurcates the server population along the line: servers that enforce that setting, and servers that do not. 

Personally I take a dim view on most server settings that seem to enforce a certain play style that deviates from what we see in "normal" (Joe Sixpack) mission play: enforced non-automated cold starts (that was a discussion point not so long ago), speeding on taxiways (I even wrote a script to accomplish that since it was requested - only to face the wrath of my players who do not take kindly to the "Gazpacho police" lining the airfield), etc. Whenever you (as server owner/admin) try to enforce a rule, you'll have people who complain and leave the server.

I want people to enjoy their stay on mine, so I set my server to be just like "normal" mission play, leave it to my players to hash out their disagreements, and occasionally ban a griefer (who deserve life-long imprisonment under ground and daily beatings -- but then again, I'm a liberal bleeding heart). So if DCS's new way of spotting units is a black dot, it should be that way in on-line as well. It's the new normal, and therefore expected. If the new normal poses a challenge to your accustomed play style, adapt, and enjoy. Because that's what we are here for. 

 

 

Its not the new normal or it would be final? But it isnt. Again: its WiP (3rd time pointing that one out). Its there for a reason (see above) and it was introduced for at least another one good reason I can think of because I am a VR player. These points are not my concern.

My concern is leaving that "choice" to the player in a competitive environment, because there is no such thing in such an environment. No soccer player would willingly lineup on the field wearing a blindfold even if given the "choice" to do so, unless its a blind football match, which of course is, what this is all about.

Second, as a server admin, you cannot choose not to choose. Every server setting draws a line between those who choose to login and those who dont. You make your own decisions as to what server settings satisfy your needs as an admin. Thats ok. I would like to choose not to hunt pixels and I would like to compete on even ground against other human players. Thats ok too? Until 2.8 that was possible. Not anymore.   

[cfrag]

19 minutes ago, Thamiel said:

Until 2.8 that was possible. Not anymore. 

So it now is the new normal. Until that changes again. That's DCS. I'm not saying it's good, just the way it is. And I understand that you don't like it. To me that's not enough to warrant a server setting that I'd be sure to ignore anyway; and I would prefer ED to invest their time into other features -- but that is just my opinion.

[Thamiel]

But a (possible) server setting you are sure to ignore is still enough for your to school me about "the new normal" and "just the way it is"? If you dont care about it, why are we talking?

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, Thamiel said:

If you dont care about it, why are we talking?

Because I respect your opinion, and would offer a different viewpoint. Then again, you seem to have missed my part about 

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

I would prefer ED to invest their time into other features

which I attribute partly to the fact that you seem to feel that I am schooling you. That was not my intention, so apologies if I came across that way. My point was that of all the things that ED could work on, the enemy spotting topic is far down on my (personal) list of priorities. So if I can choose to have them spend more on this rather than, say ATC, ground AI, Mission Editor basics (undo, band select) - i.e. things that egotistical I find more important - I'd prefer that they do those other things first.

[Morat]

Whether it's a feature, WiP or the new normal - it looks like crap.

[Thamiel]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

[...] My point was that of all the things that ED could work on, the enemy spotting topic is far down on my (personal) list of priorities. So if I can choose to have them spend more on this rather than, say ATC, ground AI, Mission Editor basics (undo, band select) - i.e. things that egotistical I find more important - I'd prefer that they do those other things first.

And you can do so. And I can do otherwise, because I prefer me rejoining with my buddies while flying into beautifully painted sunsets not ruined by specks of black pixels for the next 3 months (and with ED, that is saying something). So if you want to promote ATC, ground AI and editor basics instead, by all means do it - but do it somewhere else. Im sure there are already plenty of threads covering those subjects. If not, create a new one. At least, you won't find me there derailing your issue by advertising something completely different.

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Morat said:

Whether it's a feature, WiP or the new normal - it looks like crap.

It’s important to remember this is the beta test version. So if you see something that looks like crap, make a report and provide screenshots, setting, system info etc. Otherwise there’s no way to evaluate this. 

8 minutes ago, Thamiel said:

I prefer me rejoining with my buddies while flying into beautifully painted sunsets not ruined by specks of black pixels for the next 3 months

Again this is the Beta test version. If such things bother you there’s always the Stable Version. 

[Thamiel]

16 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Again this is the Beta test version. If such things bother you there’s always the Stable Version. 

Ah yes, waiting for that one. "Rejoining with my buddies" was meant literally:

On 10/20/2023 at 12:18 PM, Thamiel said:

I'm not a regular PvP or SP player, my domain really is PvE/MP

My buddies form a community of 62 active players, we host 8 Servers 24/7. Some of those guys are professional software engineers. Some of them are active service members. There is a lot of professional expertise assembled and I would suppose we represent a good mix of different hardware and playing styles across the (german speaking) board. Bottom line: there is no going back for little single me. If I would do so, 61 other players would have to follow. This is not just about me.

On a short side note: Its not even purely about spotting dots (or stuttering, ... pick your favourite 2.9 update "gift" not mentioned in the fix list). Its really about ED juggling openly with the core values of their product, seemingly ignorant of the risk to throw that one single reason under the bus why many of us joined this train in the first place. I daresay, that reason is Graphics. Sheer beautiful, real-time calculated convincing graphical illusions of the real deal. That is, where DCS really stands out. All the teasers and all the clips on the net promise the same thing: WYSIWYG. If you are willing to invest into a decent rig, that is what your get. And if not, you come close. So close that you may forget for some precious time that you are sitting in your room and may dream about roaming the sky freely with ordnance under your wings to prove your superiority to everyone who dares to question it.

So I joined the train and gradually I invested thousand of dollars into my rig, upgrading it. And I was paid: many beautiful hours flying into the sunset with my buddies after adrenaline surging engagements. It seemed a good investment to me. Sure, there were regular ups and downs regarding that investment: the cloud system took a toll on FPS, but MT was a good counter. But since last week, for the first time all that years, that illusion I thought I paid for seems threatened and I cannot help it but there is a nagging feeling of betrayal attached. That is not good.

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, Thamiel said:

Ah yes, waiting for that one. "Rejoining with my buddies" was meant literally:

I’m continually surprised that literally everyone chooses to use Open Beta in multiplayer. Sure it’s great to have new stuff but you’re also going to deal with things that don’t work. Like this one. People should also realize that dots point both ways. Even if someone thinks the dots work well for them, other players are probably able to see you as a giant blob without even using their radar. Why someone chooses to play this way escapes me…

[MPK]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:18 AM, Thamiel said:

Again, I get it, its WiP. But it should be lined up in the list of other "easy shortcuts" along with "easy communications" "G-effects" and so on, so mission builders could decide how to enforce it or leave it to the player.

I would never join a server that had the new dots disabled, because anyone willing to lower their resolution would have an unfair advantage

[Tree_Beard]

On 10/21/2023 at 3:18 AM, Thamiel said:

Again: its WiP (3rd time pointing that one out).

Stuff released "WIP" in DCS tends to stay in generally the same WIP state for years (WW2 damage model, weather presets, etc), so I think most people realize the version of the dots we have now is probably what we are going to be using for the foreseeable future.

[Thamiel]

33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m continually surprised that literally everyone chooses to use Open Beta in multiplayer.

Perhaps you would be surprised how little difference it makes when observing what buggy open beta versions are declared "stable" just by a stroke of the pen. You are always dealing with a lot of stuff that doesn't work, no matter what. We had this discussion before.

[SharpeXB]

41 minutes ago, Thamiel said:

Perhaps you would be surprised how little difference it makes when observing what buggy open beta versions are declared "stable" just by a stroke of the pen. You are always dealing with a lot of stuff that doesn't work, no matter what. We had this discussion before.

Perhaps. This one seems rather game breaking though. 

[Morat]

To look at this another way, the inkblots hand an advantage to VR users in PvP servers.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Morat

[Thamiel]

On 10/21/2023 at 5:20 PM, Thamiel said:

And you can do so. And I can do otherwise, because I prefer me rejoining with my buddies while flying into beautifully painted sunsets not ruined by specks of black pixels for the next 3 months (and with ED, that is saying something). So if you want to promote ATC, ground AI and editor basics instead, by all means do it - but do it somewhere else. Im sure there are already plenty of threads covering those subjects. If not, create a new one. At least, you won't find me there derailing your issue by advertising something completely different.

Quoting myself, I apologize for beeing such an optimist hardly a year ago.

[draconus]

On 10/20/2023 at 12:18 PM, Thamiel said:

Again, I get it, its WiP. But it should be lined up in the list of other "easy shortcuts" along with "easy communications" "G-effects" and so on, so mission builders could decide how to enforce it or leave it to the player.

Yes, I support

[SharpeXB]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:18 AM, Thamiel said:

But it should be lined up in the list of other "easy shortcuts" along with "easy communications" "G-effects" and so on, so mission builders could decide how to enforce it or leave it to the player.

There’s already dot labels which are exactly the same thing. And those are of course a mission option. So the spotting dots should just be eliminated all altogether.