correct as is DTOS bug (steerpoints offset in HUD)

[itn]

Hey,

Following the discussion in the thread, decided to test this out. DCS 2.9.0.47168 Open Beta.

Per the discussion, using JHMCS and DTOS, the second TMS up after ground-stabilizing the TD moves the TD to the location JHMCS is looking at the moment you press TMS up for the second time.

Also steerpoint/steering indications in HUD are moved. Seems like STPT 1 (or maybe the currently selected steerpoint (EDIT: see next post) is set at the TD and STPT 2 indication might be just offset from that the same amount the original STPT 2 was from the original STPT 1. On HSD they are shown at the original locations.

Track attached.

DTOS bugs.trk

Edited October 28, 2023 by itn
More accurate title. Clarify all steerpoints are offset.

[itn]

nullSo, what happens using DTOS is that it offsets steerpoints, but only affects the HUD indications (the diamond and steering cue), not STPT data, HSD or e.g. autopilot. When you designate with DTOS, current STPT is set to the designation point. Other steerpoints are offset as you can see in the attached screenshot.

In the screenshot is my original three steerpoints in green: 1 Senaki, 2 Kutaisi and 3 Kobuleti. I selected STPT 3, entered DTOS and designated somewhere randomly (by the river S-SW of Senaki). Then I flew through all three steerpoints using the steering cues in HUD. I put in a F10 label at every STPT I ended up following the HUD steering cues. You can see in red how they're perfectly offset by the DTOS designation I did in the start.

And I could reverse this by again selecting e.g. STPT 3, selecting DTOS and designating at Kobuleti. Then flying to STPT 1 using HUD cues, I ended up at Senaki as I should.

It seems only HUD is affected. HSD, STPT page and autopilot have and use the original steerpoint data. Did not test weapons.

DTOS offset demonstration.trk

[Raptor9]

This behavior is how the cursor slews work. When applying a cursor slew to the navigation cursor, it doesn't move the navigation position of the aircraft or the steerpoints (unless you are doing a Fix); it just moves the SPI and applies a delta to the symbology to match this cursor slew. This delta is applied to all steerpoints at once. After a slew is applied, you must use Cursor Zero to remove the accumulated cursor deltas.

So if you slew the TGP 500 meters west of steerpoint 1, as you sequence through each steerpoint the SPI will be 500 meters west from each steerpoint. If you press Cursor Zero (CZ), this slew is removed.

[itn]

Oh allright then. I knew how slews and CZ work in general, but this is new to me that the slew in A-G/DTOS stayed after returning to NAV. I tried TMS down out of habit, which did nothing but CZ in either FCR or TGP did the trick.

[boerdi]

Greetings,

In the current Open Beta 2.9.0.47168 (Multithread) the AG VIS mode is doing strange things with waypoints.
Encountered this in a MP session and was able to replicate in SP.
It seems that a VIS designation/undesignation visually "shifts" existing WP symbology?

SP track file: OB 2.9.0.47168 MT - viper funky ag vis behaviour.trk

Three waypoints:
1 - Just a WP for offset heading at air start
2 - Kobuleti Cross
3 - Kobuleti Airfield

I do a VIS ground designation and undesignation on the nearby lake and that seemingly shifts the waypoint symbology around.
The Kobuleti Cross and Airfield WPs are no longer where they should be. The coordinates of the WPs didn't change though (IIRC) but are nonetheless not in the correct position on the HUD/HMD.

PRE mode points the TGP on the correct position though (Cross and Airfield)

At the end of the track even NAV mode inherits the "new" waypoint positions

Video of track file:
01:38 - Undesignating the VIS ground target and waypoint symbology shifts
04:00 - NAV mode inherits the shifted waypoint symbology

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by boerdi

[Vortex225]

8 hours ago, boerdi said:

Greetings,

In the current Open Beta 2.9.0.47168 (Multithread) the AG VIS mode is doing strange things with waypoints.
Encountered this in a MP session and was able to replicate in SP.
It seems that a VIS designation/undesignation and visually "shifts" existing WP symbology?

SP track file: OB 2.9.0.47168 MT - viper funky ag vis behaviour.trk

Three waypoints:
1 - Just a WP for offset heading at air start
2 - Kobuleti Cross
3 - Kobuleti Airfield

I do a VIS ground designation and undesignation on the nearby lake and that seemingly shifts the waypoint symbology around.
The Kobuleti Cross and Airfield WPs are no longer where they should be. The coordinates of the WPs didn't change though (IIRC) but are nonetheless not in the correct position on the HUD/HMD.

PRE mode points the TGP on the correct position though (Cross and Airfield)

At the end of the track even NAV mode inherits the "new" waypoint positions

Video of track file:
01:38 - Undesignating the VIS ground target and waypoint symbology shifts
04:00 - NAV mode inherits the shifted waypoint symbology

 

 

I'm almost positive this is was the behavior I observed last night. Couldn't quite figure out what was happening, but this is a close match to what I observed with the HAD and HTS. Once I switched back to NAV mode, the waypoint symbol went back to the correct location. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Vortex225

[itn]

Reported same here. Correct as is according to Raptor9.

 

[Lord Vader]

Hi @boerdi

We'll take a look at this internally. 

Thanks.

[Lord Vader]

Hi again @boerdi

We have reviewed your track and video and it appears you are remaining in the VIS mode while trying to press CZ. When doing so, the command sends VIS to the pre-designate mode, caging the TD box to the FPV. The TGP will just follow the SPI. This is intended behaviour. 

If you wish to remove the deltas of the navigation cursor that were incurred after designation to return the steerpoint symbol to its original location, you must enter CCRP or PRE and then press CZ. This is also intended behaviour. CZ only zeroes the cursor that is active for a given mode. In VIS or DTOS mode, CZ zeroes the VIS cursor, but not the navigation cursor.

 

[boerdi]

@Lord Vader Thank you!

The offset resets indeed nicely but it is still strange to see the waypoints shift like that
Gotta need some time to wrap my head around it

And I tried to visualize your explanation in the video below
Same mission with waypoints over Kobuleti Cross and Kobuleti Airfield resetting as intended when in PRE mode

 

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by boerdi

[Vortex225]

16 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Hi again @boerdi

We have reviewed your track and video and it appears you are remaining in the VIS mode while trying to press CZ. When doing so, the command sends VIS to the pre-designate mode, caging the TD box to the FPV. The TGP will just follow the SPI. This is intended behaviour. 

If you wish to remove the deltas of the navigation cursor that were incurred after designation to return the steerpoint symbol to its original location, you must enter CCRP or PRE and then press CZ. This is also intended behaviour. CZ only zeroes the cursor that is active for a given mode. In VIS or DTOS mode, CZ zeroes the VIS cursor, but not the navigation cursor.

 

@Lord Vader @Raptor9

Thank you for your help, but I do believe something is not working correctly with steerpoints right now.

I was able to observe this bug tonight for both VIS mode and DTOS.

Issue #1: When creating a target designation with TMS Forward in either mode (after ground stabilizing), the steerpoint symobol will disappear. To verify this was not working as intended, I watched Wags' tutorial videos on DTOS and VIS to confirm the steerpoint symbol should remain visible in the HUD (or HMCS) after creating a target designation; his videos confirm they should for both DTOS and VIS (link to timestamps showing the correct behavior). In both videos you can still see the steerpoint symbol in the HUD even after creating the target designation with the HUD or helmet. 

Issue #2: Steerpoints are moved after clearing the target designation. If you attempt to CZ the SPI back to the steerpoint (using TMS Aft to clear that target designation and return the cue back to the HUD), the currently selected steerpoint will shift to the position the target designation was previously located. 

In summary, I believe this bug is both removing the steerpoint symbol when the target designation/SPI is created, and it is moving steerpoints in both the HUD and HMCS after the target designation is cleared. I have been able to reproduce this on multiple terrains and in both single player and multiplayer.  

I have attached two trackfiles that indicate the problem, one each for CBU-87/97 (DTOS) and another for CBU 103/105 (VIS).

DTOS_bug.trk VIS_bug.trk

Edited October 31, 2023 by Vortex225

[Lord Vader]

Hi @Vortex225

Please take note that some earlier videos created some time ago may not reflect the current state of refinement and adjustment on our Viper. While we understand this may cause frustration, at this time all we can advise is that you take note of changelogs and updates detailed on the mini-updates to keep up. The idea is that, soon, these modes and procedures will become clearer as they are addressed in future new versions of the DCS: F-16C Viper manual. 

That being said, I'll take a look at your tracks.

[Vortex225]

4 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Hi @Vortex225

Please take note that some earlier videos created some time ago may not reflect the current state of refinement and adjustment on our Viper. While we understand this may cause frustration, at this time all we can advise is that you take note of changelogs and updates detailed on the mini-updates to keep up. The idea is that, soon, these modes and procedures will become clearer as they are addressed in future new versions of the DCS: F-16C Viper manual. 

That being said, I'll take a look at your tracks.

Hi, @Lord Vader--and thank you for your time and consideration of the tracks. 

While it is certainly true that module features can change after a tutorial video by Wags is produced, the change we're talking about is a pretty significant shift in HUD/HMCS functionality. Losing the steerpoint diamond symbol on the HUD and HMCS is a degradation of situational awareness during an attack; you lose an import navigation reference. One would reasonably expect a change like that to be carefully documented; and to your second suggestion, there is no reference to steerpoint symbology removal when a TD Box is created in the patch notes for either DCS 2.9.0.46801 Open Beta or DCS 2.9.0.47168 Open Beta.

Finally, I'll add that issue #2 (i.e., moving the steerpoint to the location of the previous TD Box) surely cannot be an intended feature change. And if that's a bug, it stands to reason that the steerpoint symbol being removed, covered, or obscured (issue #1) while the TD Box is visible is likely connected or related from a coding perspective.

I do very much appreciate the engagement. I sincerely hope this bug can be investigated and resolved.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Vortex225

[Lord Vader]

Hi again @Vortex225

I understand this subject matter may cause some confusion to many. It's not easy to understand this single SPI logic on the Viper, especially when coming from other SPI logics, like the A-10C. 

I ran your tracks and noticed that you may be confusing the TD box with the navigation cursor. You are pressing CZ (or TMS aft) while still in VIS or DTOS. Like I said above, this will not actually remove the deltas, and will just move the TD box back to pre-designate state (caged to the FPV). I took over both tracks and were able to remove the deltas by choosing PRE or CCRP. None of the actual steerpoints moved like you claimed. 

In order to attempt to make this more clear, please note:
Each mode has its own cursor deltas and pressing CZ will command different actions, dependent of the mode you're in. So if the cursor is enabled in MARK mode, for example, it is only moving that markpoint pipper, if it's in VIS/DTOS mode, it's only moving the VIS cursor, etc. If it's in CCRP/PRE, on the other hand, CZ zeroes on the designated point. Same command, different results depending on the current weapon delivery submode.

Finally, the steerpoint symbology isn't actually removed when a TD box is created, it's occluded by the TD box itself.

I don't see an issue with either of your tracks. 

[Vortex225]

11 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Hi again @Vortex225

I understand this subject matter may cause some confusion to many. It's not easy to understand this single SPI logic on the Viper, especially when coming from other SPI logics, like the A-10C. 

I ran your tracks and noticed that you may be confusing the TD box with the navigation cursor. You are pressing CZ (or TMS aft) while still in VIS or DTOS. Like I said above, this will not actually remove the deltas, and will just move the TD box back to pre-designate state (caged to the FPV). I took over both tracks and were able to remove the deltas by choosing PRE or CCRP. None of the actual steerpoints moved like you claimed. 

In order to attempt to make this more clear, please note:
Each mode has its own cursor deltas and pressing CZ will command different actions, dependent of the mode you're in. So if the cursor is enabled in MARK mode, for example, it is only moving that markpoint pipper, if it's in VIS/DTOS mode, it's only moving the VIS cursor, etc. If it's in CCRP/PRE, on the other hand, CZ zeroes on the designated point. Same command, different results depending on the current weapon delivery submode.

Finally, the steerpoint symbology isn't actually removed when a TD box is created, it's occluded by the TD box itself.

I don't see an issue with either of your tracks. 

Thanks, @Lord Vader. I do appreciate you taking the time to provide a detailed and thoughtful reply. I think we may still be misunderstanding one another, so I took time to carefully read your post today and review all applicable DCS material I could find relevant to this issue. Please note that my observations may be distinct from the other issues raised in this thread. To this end, I would like to make another respectful and earnest attempt to explain the steerpoint issues I feel are not behaving properly for the Viper in DCS 2.9.0.47168 Open Beta.

Terms and Definitions: To begin, I want to avoid any confusion about terms, whether I am mistaken on definitions or otherwise. To clarify, I understand the steerpoint diamond as the diamond visible in the HUD or HMCS that shows you the location of the currently selected steerpoint. In the tracks I uploaded, this is always steerpoint 1. Additionally, I understand the TD Box to be the box and dot that that is visible on the HUD or HMCS that shows the location of the current target designation/SPI.

Scope of Discussion: To simply our analysis, let's restrict the discussion just to VIS mode for the moment. Please consider the following graphic, which is numbered according to the order in which the screenshots were taken:

#1 shows the HUD view after initially selecting VIS sub-mode with the steerpoint diamond clearly indicating the correct location for Steerpoint 1. The TD Box is caged to the HUD because I have not yet slewed it to a desired target location.

#2 shows the HUD view after slewing the TD Box to a target location chosen arbitrarily for this demonstration track. I have already pressed TMS FWD once to designate and ground-stabilize the TD Box to that location. Notice the missing steerpoint diamond where it was previously located in #1?

#3 shows the HUD after I have reset/re-caged the TD Box back to the FPV with TMS AFT. Notice how the steerpoint diamond has shifted to a new location? I haven't modified the currently selected steerpoint; and yet, the steerpoint diamond is now located where the TD Box was previously designated from #2. The correct location for Steerpoint 1 is annotated for comparison.   

#4 shows the HUD view immediately after selecting the PRE sub-mode; no other changes have been made. Notice how the target designation box now correctly reflects the location of Steerpoint 1, which makes sense for a PRE delivery. The steerpoint diamond is occluded, but I believe that is intended based on another video from Wags showing JDAM deliveries in PRE. 

The second screenshot below (single HUD view) shows a frame from Wags' video DCS: F-16C Viper | Air-to-Ground Helmet, in which the VIS sub-mode is used for a standard JDAM attack. Please note the presence of both the steerpoint diamond (showing the location of his Steerpoint 2) and the TD Box in the HUD/HMCS at the same time.

In summary, I'm describing two separate issues.

- The first issue is shown in #2 below. Why does the steerpoint diamond disappear? See the second screenshot below (single HUD view) from Wags' video for what I think the correct behavior should be. Please note that I could not find any reference in any DCS Open Beta patch notes that describes a change to steerpoint diamond symbology that would have modified the behavior away from that depicted in Wags' tutorial video.  

- The second issue is shown in #3 below. Why does the steerpoint diamond shift to a location other than the currently selected steerpoint? I interpret the HUD picture in #3 as Steerpoint 1 is at the location of the diamond, but I *know* that Steerpoint 1 is actually located in the position from #1. This seems like a bug to me.  

Thank you again for your time and consideration. 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Vortex225

[Lord Vader]

#2 - The steerpoint disappears because it's occluded by the TD Box. It is the steerpoint diamond with added deltas.

#3 - That's the steerpoint, yes, but also with added deltas.

(edited) As you describe, you are always in VIS mode and I already explained how in that mode the deltas are added and cannot be removed with TMS aft. You need to select CCRP/PRE then press CZ to remove the deltas and reset it to the original position.

Please, once more, do not consider Matt Wagner video as a reference anymore. Future product manual updates will attempt to clarify this. I believe you're being mislead by earlier depictions that have been refined over time.

[itn]

1 hour ago, Lord Vader said:

As you describe, you are always in VIS mode and I already explained how in that mode the deltas are added and cannot be removed with TMS aft. You need to select CCRP/PRE then press CZ to remove the deltas and reset it to the original position or return to the navigation mode to restore original waypoint data.

As a clarification to the or "return to the navigation mode to restore original waypoint data": Does this mean the delta should reset automatically when switching to NAV, or maybe the NAV mode somehow always use the original steerpoint data?

Currently if you have slew delta in A-G DTOS or CCRP, and simply switch to NAV, the delta stays and is still used in NAV mode. It can be reset manually just the same as in other modes, but the question is should it reset automatically simply by switching to NAV and should I always have the original steerpoints in NAV?

Thanks for your efforts

[Lord Vader]

Hi @itn

I may have truncated part of the text I wrote there. I have edited it above for the sake of clarification. Thanks for bringing it up.

Every deltas added by current weapon delivery submode can only be removed by zeroing the data. I am sorry if I mislead you.

[itn]

3 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Hi @itn

I may have truncated part of the text I wrote there. I have edited it above for the sake of clarification. Thanks for bringing it up.

Every deltas added to by current weapon delivery submode can only be removed by zeroing the data. I am sorry if I mislead you.

No worries, and thanks for the clarification.

[Vortex225]

9 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

#2 - The steerpoint disappears because it's occluded by the TD Box. It is the steerpoint diamond with added deltas.

#3 - That's the steerpoint, yes, but also with added deltas.

(edited) As you describe, you are always in VIS mode and I already explained how in that mode the deltas are added and cannot be removed with TMS aft. You need to select CCRP/PRE then press CZ to remove the deltas and reset it to the original position.

Please, once more, do not consider Matt Wagner video as a reference anymore. Future product manual updates will attempt to clarify this. I believe you're being mislead by earlier depictions that have been refined over time.

@Lord Vader

Ok, thank you for taking another look. I do understand what you're saying, and I will accept it as working as intended. Please know that it was not my intent to be difficult; it was simply hard for me to understand how these refinements could reflect reality when they ostensibly provide less situational awareness and require more HOTAS presses and/or MFD button interactions than the previous implementation.

All that matters is realism. If you're saying these changes were intentional, then so be it. Thank you again for your time.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Vortex225

[Lord Vader]

Not a problem, @Vortex225. This clarification will be useful for everyone that struggles with this logic.

[xanstin]

So in NAV mode, if I use the TGP at ALL. It moves my stpt as I slew. This is intended? Not in any bomb mode or designation mode. I am in NAV mode.

[xanstin]

Also if I set a markpoint visually, then look around with a TGP to find additional targets that markpoint gets moved around? That seems crazy to me. What a loss of SA if nothing is stable. This seems like a monumental change that perhaps the changelog didnt really stand out enough for me. I see the entry and hyperlinked article but wow...lol its a big one.

Edited November 5, 2023 by xanstin

[Vortex225]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:40 AM, xanstin said:

Also if I set a markpoint visually, then look around with a TGP to find additional targets that markpoint gets moved around? That seems crazy to me. What a loss of SA if nothing is stable. This seems like a monumental change that perhaps the changelog didnt really stand out enough for me. I see the entry and hyperlinked article but wow...lol its a big one.

 

I agree that this is a significant change that needs to be documented a bit better to help us understand. I'm still struggling to use this properly in my AG workflows for both DTOS and VIS--even after Lord Vader was kind enough to explain it to me. 

What entry are you referring to? Is this something in a recent change log?

ETA: Found it, my mistake. The single SPI logic update was documented thoroughly here; however, we may need a few tutorials to help us understand how to use it properly.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/209147-viper-mini-updates/?do=findComment&comment=5288681

Edited November 7, 2023 by Vortex225

[LastRifleRound]

Everything makes sense save for the zeroing.

CZ in VIS mode should zero out the slews made in this mode. As written here, to zero out the HUD symbology in a VIS mode, you have to go to a PRE mode then hit CZ. This makes no sense and I think that's what everyone's confused over. You don't go to a VIS mode to zero out something you did in a PRE mode, especially since PRE mode ignores slews made in VIS like it should. Hitting CZ in VIS should zero the slews you made in VIS, going to another mode should be unnecessary, and the write-up in the updated logic pinned thread backs this up. The pinned thread says that to zero a slew made in a mode, you have to go to that mode and zero it. But here you're saying we need to go to a DIFFERENT mode and zero it.

Here's the relevant writing: 

• Cursor slews are now possible in several different modes that are independently accumulated. As an example, the VIP cursor may be slewed and zeroed independently of the Navigation cursor. If Cursor Zero is pressed and "CZ" remains displayed on the MFD, it is because another cursor still has cursor slews applied. This may be seen when the DTOS/VIS cursor is zeroed back to the FPM, but the main Navigation cursor may still be slewed away from the original steerpoint location. To zero the Navigation cursor, CCRP or CCIP should be entered and then CZ pressed.

This is providing an example where the nav cursor has been slewed elsewhere, not to expect the VIS mode CZ to reset that. This makes sense. However, the VIS mode according to you (and this write-up), does not actually move the STPT, it sets the current STPT to the slewed location IN VIS mode. We know this because if we go to PRE mode, the slew is gone like we expect.

These two statements cannot both be true. Also, this thread suggests this behavior is a bug:

TL: DR; hitting CZ in VIS mode should zero out all slews made in VIS mode without having to jump to another mode to zero out what was done in VIS.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by LastRifleRound