Missile Variants and Performance

[Schwokol]

Hello, I was curious about the variants of the sidewinders and sparrows which will be represented and available for the F-4E. Which variants will we see, and how well will they perform in the sim? I have seen documentaries on the F-4 that claimed the sparrow performance in Vietnam was poor enough to gain it a 1-in-10 success ratio. This did refer to early-war Navy F-4Bs, so they were certainly using early models of A/A missiles. How effective can we expect our DCS F-4E A/A missiles to be?

[DSplayer]

A key factor in IRL weapon performance/reliability is weapons handling and maintenance. In DCS, we should have "perfect" missiles that should have perfect reliability. So if you launch within parameters, they should track.

The variants of AIM-9s we'll see appear to be the AIM-9B, 9J, 9P, 9L, and 9M. And the AIM-7 variants we'll see are the AIM-7E-2, 7F, and 7M.

[Stackup]

Hopefully we see the AIM-9E eventually because I believe Grinnelli confirmed it for the F-100 and it fills the rather large gap between the B and J.

[Kalasnkova74]

46 minutes ago, Schwokol said:

Hello, I was curious about the variants of the sidewinders and sparrows which will be represented and available for the F-4E. Which variants will we see, and how well will they perform in the sim? I have seen documentaries on the F-4 that claimed the sparrow performance in Vietnam was poor enough to gain it a 1-in-10 success ratio. This did refer to early-war Navy F-4Bs, so they were certainly using early models of A/A missiles. How effective can we expect our DCS F-4E A/A missiles to be?

It will be better than that. Two large factors why those missiles worked poorly are training & handling. US pilots back in the 60s were taught to intercept nuclear bombers, not fire their missiles in a maneuvering dogfight. That led to a lot of missed and improper shots. 
Finally, the missiles themselves were handled like oversized bullets…leading to a lot of vacuum tube parts being damaged before the missiles were even bolted to the jets. 
 

Neither factor will be a concern for us in DCS.

[Nealius]

I believe this is only specific to the Naval Phantoms, but I recall something about launch/trap cycles damaging the innards of the Sparrows as well during the early days, leading to a lot of failures in combat.

[Bremspropeller]

It would be cool to have weapons tied to the selected country, so we could load AIM-9Ds on the IDF F-4.

 

[Karon]

36 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

It would be cool to have weapons tied to the selected country, so we could load AIM-9Ds on the IDF F-4.

 

Possibly a decision that is better left to the mission designer, but I'd love to see templates dedicated to this purpose (although the combinations would be too many).

[Bremspropeller]

If it's left to the mission designer, it's even better. The missiles, however, would need to be available in the first place.

Not sure if the IDF used the -9G/H as well.

[Czechnology]

12 hours ago, Nealius said:

I believe this is only specific to the Naval Phantoms, but I recall something about launch/trap cycles damaging the innards of the Sparrows as well during the early days, leading to a lot of failures in combat.

It was accelerated in the navy, buy the airforce suffered from similar problems due to improper storage and rough ground handlers.

[SgtPappy]

10 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

If it's left to the mission designer, it's even better. The missiles, however, would need to be available in the first place.

Not sure if the IDF used the -9G/H as well.

1973: The First Nuclear War suggests that there were limited AIM-9G's in IDF service. If true, that would be incredible. It's a great read - primarily from the Egyptian perspective but it seems very well-researched and everything is questioned and put under a microscope for what is, IMO, a very objective take on the Yom Kippur War.

To answer the question though, my understanding is that the USAF managed to really increase the reliability of the AIM-7E-2 by 1972, before which time, as mentioned, the AIM-7's were being handled very poorly. Steve Ritchie was apparently able to choose from the stock of best maintained/most recently fixed Sparrows and he had great success with them. The AIM-7E-2 allegedly hit around 13% of the time, all reasons for failure included. Heck, the perfectly reliable AIM-7M's in DCS hit about 25% of the time for me.

For the AIM-9's the main versions the USAF used in Vietnam was the E which was only a bit better than the B. The Navy moved to the D which was very good - had a record of almost 50% hits. The USAF trialed the J which was reportedly very good and maneuverable but the aircrew were given data and training that overestimated the missile's range at low altitude so most missiles were inadvertently fired out of range and scored 4 out of 4 initial launches but never hit again (total of 31 launches). The USN then used the AIM-9G and then H which incorporated more discrimination, better lead-bias tracking for likelier probability of hitting and the ability to slave to the radar. When the Israelis used the AIM-9D during the War of Attrition and the Yom Kippur/October War, they did not have the slaving ability because the F-4E did not accommodate that ability.

Actual hit records for the Israelis is iffy because while there's some verifiable data and evidence out there, there is also a lot that is not so it's harder to say. Regardless, DCS missiles will perform a lot better than they did in real life since they're all perfectly reliable. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by SgtPappy

[Biggus]

It'd be nice to have the correct Sidewinder for Iranian Tomcat skins too.