[Not Bug/By design] F86 actions Flaps Up/Down - inconsistent behavior depending on the actual position

[virgo47]

I have the following input setup - up/down actions are on the up/down positions of the STECS K-switch:

The actions in the red act as momentary actions only - I have to press and HOLD the button to keep the lever in that position. This doesn't seem right at all when the Flaps Up/Down works as a toggle.

To clarify - JOY_BTON55 is NOT a middle position "button" it is a different physical button on the K-switch (middle button). If I press the Flaps Up/Down action in the Controls table, it goes there and stays there after the release - as there is no other action triggered by the release of the switch.

Flap Stop works as expected. So does the Flaps Up/Down toggle.

I found a similar thread from 2015 - but I'm not sure how relevant that is.

Edited November 29, 2023 by virgo47

[razo+r]

4 minutes ago, virgo47 said:

The actions in the red act as momentary actions only - I have to press and HOLD the button to keep the lever in that position. This doesn't seem right at all when the Flaps Up/Down works as a toggle.

The Up and Down button have 2 different modes.

If you tap it very quickly, it will go into position and stay there.

If you tap it too slow, or hold it, it will act as a momentarily switch, returning to neutral after releasing the button.

[MAXsenna]

Interesting. I always thought the lever was spring loaded in the real aircraft.

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[razo+r]

16 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Interesting. I always thought the lever was spring loaded in the real aircraft.

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Well, there are notches in the slit where the handle travels. I assume you can "park" the handle there. Which would also give it 2 different ways to operate flaps. Either hold it manually and let it spring back to neutral or put the handle in one of those notches and leave it there.

[virgo47]

1 hour ago, razo+r said:

The Up and Down button have 2 different modes.

If you tap it very quickly, it will go into position and stay there.

If you tap it too slow, or hold it, it will act as a momentarily switch, returning to neutral after releasing the button.

Thanks for the info, I started with Chuck's guide where I didn't see this mentioned, but indeed, this is mentioned in the manual on page 56. So that is good at least.

Now I can also see the thread: How to use flaps correctly? However, from the real F86 snippets mentioned in that discussion, it doesn't look like the real F86 has this lever spring loaded in any way. So this control quirk is an arbitrary decision of the designers that is quite inconsistent with other planes with the multi-position flap lever (e.g. MiG-15, also from Belsimtek, although, granted, its 4-position lever works not quite the same).

I can confirm that the short press works - but quite strangely, it is not totally consistent. It somehow depends on the animation:

• If the lever is in the centre position, the press must be very short.
• If the lever is in the opposite position, the press can be a bit longer - until the lever reaches the target position.
• If the lever is IN position already, the press moves it into the centre position.

I'm not saying it's unusable - but it is definitely very counter-intuitive and totally different without the basis in the real plane. How can a short press of UP go UP and then the next press to the centre again? It eventually works as a toggle. With STOP position having a distinct binding, this seems to be a more broken system than a good one.

[PawlaczGMD]

I think the toggle option is a simplification. The F-86 flap lever controls the motion of the flaps, not position. So lever up will move the flaps up, and so on. This is as opposed to the flaps moving to correspond to the position of the lever. In the real aircraft, you have to hold the lever up/down until the flaps move to the position you desire, so it makes sense that you need to hold the button down.

I have it bound to a 3-position toggle switch that corresponds to down/hold/up.

Edited November 28, 2023 by PawlaczGMD

[MAXsenna]

I think the toggle option is a simplification. The F-86 flap lever controls the motion of the flaps, not position. So lever up will move the flaps up, and so on. This is as opposed to the flaps moving to correspond to the position of the lever. In the real aircraft, you have to hold the lever up/down until the flaps move to the position you desire, so it makes sense that you need to hold the button down.
I have it bound to a 3-position toggle switch that corresponds to down/hold/up.

My take on it too, and I use it the same way.

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[virgo47]

I see whar you mean, but this than only works with a 3-way hotas switch properly. But it should work with buttons as well just as in any other module or any other non-spring switch.

I understand the flap lever action now. Mig-15 or Yak-52 are similar in this way. But is the real F86 lever spring-loaded or not? It doesn't seem so. In that case the momentary buttons/keys should just change its position just as with any other switch or lever. 3-positions gear levers (L-39, Yak-52) work like this, so if the pilot can leave/latch the lever there it should be possible even with buttons as well.

Edit: Or we should have binding alternatives for both styles. Latch and self-returning.

Edited November 28, 2023 by virgo47

[MAXsenna]

I see whar you mean, but this than only works with a 3-way hotas switch properly. But it should work with buttons as well just as in any other module or any other non-spring switch.
I understand the flap lever action now. Mig-15 or Yak-52 are similar in this way. But is the real F86 lever spring-loaded or not? It doesn't seem so. In that case the momentary buttons/keys should just change its position just as with any other switch or lever. 3-positions gear levers (L-39, Yak-52) work like this, so if the pilot can leave/latch the lever there it should be possible even with buttons as well.
Edit: Or we should have binding alternatives for both styles. Latch and self-returning.

Hmmm... When I flew the Sabre with my previous throttle, (TM TWCS), I just used a hat as up and down, and held it in the direction I wanted, and the lever returned to centre when I let go. Didn't need any three position. So if that's necessary now, they have changed something.

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[PawlaczGMD]

1 hour ago, virgo47 said:

I see whar you mean, but this than only works with a 3-way hotas switch properly. But it should work with buttons as well just as in any other module or any other non-spring switch.

I understand the flap lever action now. Mig-15 or Yak-52 are similar in this way. But is the real F86 lever spring-loaded or not? It doesn't seem so. In that case the momentary buttons/keys should just change its position just as with any other switch or lever. 3-positions gear levers (L-39, Yak-52) work like this, so if the pilot can leave/latch the lever there it should be possible even with buttons as well.

Edit: Or we should have binding alternatives for both styles. Latch and self-returning.

 

I'm not sure I see your problem. When I had a less advanced HOTAS without such toggles, I just had flaps up/down bound to buttons, which I held down until the flaps moved as I desired. Then I let go to keep them there. I think this action mimics the real aircraft well and is reasonable. It only takes a few seconds to move the flaps through the full range of motion. I don't have the other planes you've mentioned, but perhaps they are just designed differently. I would not expect consistency between different, east/west planes.

Because the lever has detents for up/down but not hold, I would guess that it is spring-loaded, but I have no actual evidence...

[virgo47]

7 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I'm not sure I see your problem. When I had a less advanced HOTAS without such toggles, I just had flaps up/down bound to buttons, which I held down until the flaps moved as I desired. Then I let go to keep them there. I think this action mimics the real aircraft well and is reasonable. It only takes a few seconds to move the flaps through the full range of motion. I don't have the other planes you've mentioned, but perhaps they are just designed differently. I would not expect consistency between different, east/west planes.

Because the lever has detents for up/down but not hold, I would guess that it is spring-loaded, but I have no actual evidence...

Yeah, I will use the press-n-hold action of course. It is not a big deal, I'll manage.

When I talk about consistency, I definitely don't mean consistency between the actual planes, but more about the controls in-game. Unless one has a spare 3-way switch (I have only one at the moment and actually use it for gears, some of them also having 3-way lever) the question of how momentary presses translate to the actual action are relevant. And yes, press-n-hold is also a valid solution. But options are always good. It's good when you have a multiposition switch and can bind all the positions, have additional up/down/cycle bindings, etc.

The strange inconsistency in F-86F is even when you compare the toggle action that holds in the position and skips the center position altogether.

I tried to find something on the topic on the internet, but no luck at the moment. Some of them still fly (not sure about the variant though), so perhaps a direct question could help but I don't know the guys.

With this I consider it solved as it is obviously by design.

9 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Hmmm... When I flew the Sabre with my previous throttle, (TM TWCS), I just used a hat as up and down, and held it in the direction I wanted, and the lever returned to centre when I let go. Didn't need any three position. So if that's necessary now, they have changed something.
 

No prob, that's how it still works. There is a binding for the centre position, but you need it only if you use that Flaps Up/Down toggle that actually stays in those positions. Up and Down separate actions still work as described above - press-n-hold, returning after release or latching after a very short press.

[MAXsenna]

No prob, that's how it still works. There is a binding for the centre position, but you need it only if you use that Flaps Up/Down toggle that actually stays in those positions. Up and Down separate actions still work as described above - press-n-hold, returning after release or latching after a very short press.

We might talk past each other, and I can't see what you mean because it just works the way I would imagine it should. (Wouldn't be the first time )
Tested yesterday. I have bound my Warthog flap lever to only up and down, just like I did with hat (buttons) on my TWCS . Only difference is if course that the Warthog lever stays in position. Haven't bound the middle position at all. To be honest I can't see what it's for. Whether you have buttons (ON, momentary), an ON-OFF-ON switch/lever or an (ON)-OFF-(ON) switch/lever. They all work in the same way, and the middle position keybind is not needed. Unless, pressing the buttons would keep the lever in the up or down position, which it's not.
Anyway, like you wrote it's probably by design, and correct.
Cheers!

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