I think I hate this thing

[grafspee]

@stuart666 If ED would give us P-51 B/C version, that would be no good news for axis side, P-47 and P-51 in razor back version were faster then D variants with bouble canopy. B or C used same engine as D in P-51.

Edited December 24, 2023 by grafspee

[stuart666]

I get the impression that in June/July 1944, the Americans still largely had B Mustangs, and the Luftwaffe had modified the A8 till have a greater power range on the throttle. The mustang likely still had ascendancy, but it didnt have what it did later with the D model (not least 4 guns compared to 6), and wasnt running 150 octane. I gather the power output of the D they have now is as it would have been in october 1944 till the end of the war, not what it would have had in june.

This is all on Gregs planes and automobiles. Im not buying the idea that the early P47 and P51B are offering an unassailable advantage, or clearly they would nt have introduced the later variants. More to the point, we get a B or C mustang, then you can operate them as RAF ones. The RAF only got D models in 1945 IIRC.

[grafspee]

23 minutes ago, stuart666 said:

I get the impression that in June/July 1944, the Americans still largely had B Mustangs, and the Luftwaffe had modified the A8 till have a greater power range on the throttle. The mustang likely still had ascendancy, but it didnt have what it did later with the D model (not least 4 guns compared to 6), and wasnt running 150 octane. I gather the power output of the D they have now is as it would have been in october 1944 till the end of the war, not what it would have had in june.

This is all on Gregs planes and automobiles. Im not buying the idea that the early P47 and P51B are offering an unassailable advantage, or clearly they would nt have introduced the later variants. More to the point, we get a B or C mustang, then you can operate them as RAF ones. The RAF only got D models in 1945 IIRC.

B/C used 1650 -3 and -7 engines , -3 is rigged for high alt so it provide lower power output and lower top speed at SL but at alt between 13k to 17k makes B/C up to 20mph faster then D same at alt above 28k where B/C faster then D. 

British model of P-51B/C Mustang III when operated on 150 fuel was cleared for 25lbs boost which is 80inch in US planes made mustang III faster then any other US army P-51.

Edited December 24, 2023 by grafspee

[stuart666]

Yeah, but that overlooks that its not about 28000 feet where the Germans are going to be able to compete. If you look at Gregs page, its lower altitude where the FW 190's are going to be competitive. As far as multiplayer, its going to be a very rare day when everyone is plugging each other over 28000 fleet, historical though that may be. Its much lower altitude, under 15000, where the differences are going to be a lot less. And the early mustangs didnt just have a third less guns, but they had real problems with the guns jamming in a turn.

Sure, but when did it get 150 fuel? Late 1944. We know the German crates most of the war were on 87 octane, right? So the allied aircraft are always going to have an advantage, even when running 100 octane.But having aircraft ONLY running 150 octane, means you are simulating aircraft in the last months of the war, going up against the Anton which simulates how it was prior to june 1944.

Look, im not a luftwhiner, we always had an advantage, and I dont mean for that to end just to increase playablity. But when the Luftwaffe players say the deck is stacked, ahistorically stacked actually, they do seem to have a point as best I can see. There is a case for having early 1944 and late 1944 variants of all the main aircraft. Then the servers can setup authentic engagements where nobody is getting ahistorical advantages.

[grafspee]

@stuart666 P-51 D is fast as hell, but idea alone that P-51 B/C is 20mph faster at alt above 13k is crazy and 13k of alt isn't crazy altitude where you won't fight in MP. And on top of that P-51 B/C were upgraded along with D model introduction. So overall B/C is no less competitive then D model.

[kablamoman]

5 hours ago, stuart666 said:

As far as multiplayer, its going to be a very rare day when everyone is plugging each other over 28000 fleet, historical though that may be.

Should spend some time on the Project Overlord server. A lot of high-flyers there for sure. It's quite common to joust with opponents in the block from 25,000 - 35,000 feet there.

Dora holds its own up to about 26k even with the MW50 disabled. Above that, even though it could already turn, the 109 starts to really shine in terms of speed (again, even if it doesn't have MW50). Mustang is a great performer in general at most altitudes and the biggest threat to axis aircraft by far, in my estimation (above 30k the 109 and jug start flexing on it).

The Anton is definitely at a disadvantage against almost everything except maybe spits and jugs down low, but it's still quite popular for air-to-ground stuff and coordinated formations of A8s in a dogfight can still be lethal. The ATA boost for the Anton would definitely be welcomed by almost all the players I know.

[stuart666]

On 12/25/2023 at 8:44 AM, grafspee said:

@stuart666 P-51 D is fast as hell, but idea alone that P-51 B/C is 20mph faster at alt above 13k is crazy and 13k of alt isn't crazy altitude where you won't fight in MP. And on top of that P-51 B/C were upgraded along with D model introduction. So overall B/C is no less competitive then D model.

I think the point im making is to model an earlier Mustang, so that the earlier A8 has something that it is slightly more competitive with, and a later one that, whilst still vastly outclassed, still has a bit more in the tank. If Greg is right (and I would encourage people to listen to his thoughts all the way through) it is not that the A8 wont be outclassed. Its just that  modelling a late 1944 Mustang to go up against an early 1944 A8 really isnt particularly fair. Ok, so fair is still going to be outclassed. Well, you cant do anything about the history, but they are modelling two different eras of history. Its not even pretending to be historically correct.

Personally Id like to see more 1943 aircraft modelled so we can start modelling ramrods. But using a 150 octane D mustang to model early 1944 scenarios doesnt just look wrong. The results are wholly wrong.

On 12/25/2023 at 1:50 PM, kablamoman said:

Should spend some time on the Project Overlord server. A lot of high-flyers there for sure. It's quite common to joust with opponents in the block from 25,000 - 35,000 feet there.

Dora holds its own up to about 26k even with the MW50 disabled. Above that, even though it could already turn, the 109 starts to really shine in terms of speed (again, even if it doesn't have MW50). Mustang is a great performer in general at most altitudes and the biggest threat to axis aircraft by far, in my estimation (above 30k the 109 and jug start flexing on it).

The Anton is definitely at a disadvantage against almost everything except maybe spits and jugs down low, but it's still quite popular for air-to-ground stuff and coordinated formations of A8s in a dogfight can still be lethal. The ATA boost for the Anton would definitely be welcomed by almost all the players I know.

Yeah, I really must try overlord. Is there many mosquito slots?

[kablamoman]

1 hour ago, stuart666 said:

Yeah, I really must try overlord. Is there many mosquito slots?

There are indeed quite a few dedicated Mosquito aficionados. I think they have a system where it can be ferried over from England to open slots in France.

[grafspee]

2 hours ago, stuart666 said:

I think the point im making is to model an earlier Mustang, so that the earlier A8 has something that it is slightly more competitive with, and a later one that, whilst still vastly outclassed, still has a bit more in the tank. If Greg is right (and I would encourage people to listen to his thoughts all the way through) it is not that the A8 wont be outclassed. Its just that  modelling a late 1944 Mustang to go up against an early 1944 A8 really isnt particularly fair. Ok, so fair is still going to be outclassed. Well, you cant do anything about the history, but they are modelling two different eras of history. Its not even pretending to be historically correct.

I totally agree that we should get A8 with increased power rating.

Thing is that P-51D was one of first along with K-4 and D-9 which all of them are from similar period. Problem was created by introducing Normandy map which represents period 1-2 year before K-4 D-9 and P-51 D-30 which if i am not mistaken is 1945 Mustang model. Another issue is that ED decided to model early A8 production model with 1.42 ATA and not going for late version with 1.56/1.65 ATA along with 1943 Spitfire mkX which actually started its life as MKV and it was converted to mk IX in mid production, indication for this is shape of tail vertical stabilizer and rudder.

Edited December 27, 2023 by grafspee

[stuart666]

1 hour ago, kablamoman said:

There are indeed quite a few dedicated Mosquito aficionados. I think they have a system where it can be ferried over from England to open slots in France.

Thanks, Ill definately try that out then.

1 hour ago, grafspee said:

I totally agree that we should get A8 with increased power rating.

Thing is that P-51D was one of first along with K-4 and D-9 which all of them are from similar period. Problem was created by introducing Normandy map which represents period 1-2 year before K-4 D-9 and P-51 D-30 which if i am not mistaken is 1945 Mustang model. Another issue is that ED decided to model early A8 production model with 1.42 ATA and not going for late version with 1.56/1.65 ATA along with 1943 Spitfire mkX which actually started its life as MKV and it was converted to mk IX in mid production, indication for this is shape of tail vertical stabilizer and rudder.

 

Yep, Ill entirely agree with you.

And im not even suggesting they take anything out or modify anything. All they have to do is clone the A8 and give it the new throttle range, and maybe a 100 octane version of the P51. Considering all the effort they are going through to make a new theatre with marianas, and a hellcat to fly in it, this should be easy money for them. In fact, if they threw in some new skins, Id happily buy a late production A8 and an early P51D (perhaps without the filler on the tail and in green to make it truly different). 

Lets put it this way, Id be more inclined to buy those than the Hellcat that, tbh, I struggle to develop interest in.

 

[grafspee]

1 hour ago, stuart666 said:

Thanks, Ill definately try that out then.

Yep, Ill entirely agree with you.

And im not even suggesting they take anything out or modify anything. All they have to do is clone the A8 and give it the new throttle range, and maybe a 100 octane version of the P51. Considering all the effort they are going through to make a new theatre with marianas, and a hellcat to fly in it, this should be easy money for them. In fact, if they threw in some new skins, Id happily buy a late production A8 and an early P51D (perhaps without the filler on the tail and in green to make it truly different). 

Lets put it this way, Id be more inclined to buy those than the Hellcat that, tbh, I struggle to develop interest in.

 

Thing is that increased ratings for A8 won't improve performance across all alt. It only allow engines to be operated at increased ATA at alt where supercharger can actually provide that boost, same with 150 octane fuel for allied planes.

[Art-J]

Mustang we've got pulls 61" dry / 67" wet, so it's already a standard rating for 100/130 fuel. Performance-wise -D can't go any "earlier" than that and -B/C would still be faster at the same manifild pressures simply because of better aerodynamics.

DCS A-8 can already use the same trick as P-47, ie. overboost from ram-air effect in a dive, even though it works only at altitude before supercharger kicks down from 2nd to 1st speed. One can overboost to 1.55-1.6 ATA this way, albeit last time I tested, it didn't yield any airspeed increase at all for whatever reason (unlike in P-47).

[stuart666]

16 hours ago, grafspee said:

Thing is that increased ratings for A8 won't improve performance across all alt. It only allow engines to be operated at increased ATA at alt where supercharger can actually provide that boost, same with 150 octane fuel for allied planes.

Well the best thing I can do is leave you with Gregs video on the A8, I think this is where he discusses what they could do to improve it. Its also his contention (Im not sure he is right, but he seems to know what he is talking about) that the P47 and P51 are running 150 octane. Which if true, rather explains quite why the A8 is so outclassed. Of course the D9  was probably running 87 octane as well, but with MW50 it probably matters less.

The charts he does on some of the other videos where he shows the theoretical power advantages at what altitude for the German aircraft are useful. I cant say he is right, I just think I find it fairly convincing. Check out the one he did on German fuel as well, its very interesting.

[Art-J]

Watch and listen again. Greg knows his stuff, but the only contention he's is making is that DCS P-47 and P-51 players online tend to remove external pylons to bring these planes just a tad closer to performance figures for 115/150 fuel. It doesn't change the fact (which he also mentiones in that very video) that both fighters are limited to max MAP settings for 100/130 fuel, which are 64" and 67" wet respectively. Same applies to both British planes which run at max 18 PSI boost only. And since Anton can be flown without its fuelage rack as well, this aspect of game is "fair".

As a result none of the current DCS warbirds, Allied or German, represents late '44 extra octane and/or extra boost modifications. Thunderbolt is a bit of an outlier here as it can use ram-air effect to overboost to 72+ but only after a sufficently long dive and only at sea level, which limits usability of doing so.

Even though I wouldn't mind getting an Anton with higher boost option for late '44, wouldn't it mean Allied side should be treated the same (70-75" for US planes, +25 PSI for British)? If so, we would be back to square one. Any speed bonus for Anton would be negated to some extent by speed bonus for Allies.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Art-J

[grafspee]

@stuart666 My point is that, let say A-8 critical alt for 1.42 ATA is 22k ft, if we get 1.56/1.65 ATA Anton it will have exactly the same ATA at that alt. So if you would fight in Anton up high (above 24k ft as example), it does not matter if it is 1.42 ATA version or 1.56/1.65 ATA version. This is only thing what i try to say.

Same apply to allied planes, 72" P-51 can hold that boost to lower alt then 67" P-51 and above blowers crit alt both will perform exactly the same, at 28k ft 130 P-51 and 150 P-51 will fly exactly the same no gains there from having 150 octane fuel.

Edited December 28, 2023 by grafspee

[Sezai]

Actually I post this in another topic but feels like belongs more here. At first I was very much frustrated as well but then it started growing on me. Nevertheless without MW50 I would say it loses its competitive edge..

Dora flies super smooth and the cockpit visibility is excellent. However it is not build for 1v1 dogfight. When you are flying with a Dora, don't bother looking for a fair fight, look for a prey. Dora is fast and can dive very steep and then recover without a problem, no allied fighter can match its diving and recovering capabilities. If you play Dora it is better to fly with other BF109s. when they keep busy Spits or P51s you go there insanely fast and finish them off. If you are playing as a lone wolf it is much easier to shoot down the Spitfires. If you see a Spitfire, make sure you are fast and try to shoot it at your first attempt. You can only turn once with a Spitfire as they will be locked with G at high speed. if you keep pushing though, you will die in seconds. So first attempt you give a shot to the Spitfire, if you miss, full power + shallow climb and the Spitfire won't catch you. After 3-4km turn back and try again. From my experience it is quite difficult for a Spitfire to shoot down a Dora unless they are in a 1 circle, 2 circle or any other dogfight. Things get much more difficult when you engage a P51D though. P51 is also very fast, cannot dive and recover like a Dora but definitely outturns a Dora. So make sure you extend your take off flaps when engaged in a circle fight.  Actually it is better not to engage a P51D though as it is quite difficult to run off. I do not fly with Dora in 4YA servers anymore as it is does not have MW50, it loses all its speed advantage. However in other servers like Wolfpack there is MW50 and you can enjoy it much better. if anyone has an idea how to engage a P51 with a Dora, would be great to pick their brain. 

[kablamoman]

24 minutes ago, Sezai said:

Nevertheless without MW50 I would say it loses its competitive edge..

It's still super competitive, especially in the 6000-8000 meter altitude block.

Its biggest threat is the Mustang. The 47 will start to be a threat only at extreme altitudes. The spit is never a issue at any altitude as it simply can't catch you. The Mustang (and 47, if the player knows how to maximize its dive) absolutely will out-dive the Dora though -- you'll do better to get away in those instances with an extension and a shallow climb. But if you're stuck within guns range, use the Dora's roll to alternately pull to the attacker's belly and out of plane after a split-s. If you can shake them, try to reset and extend with a shallow climb or lose them in cloud. Without MW50 it will be close enough to matching the Mustang's sustained turn with takeoff flaps to go quite a few circles, but it's tight and a stupid thing to do -- you'll either get third-partied or if he's decent he may eventually catch you after quite a few turns around the church steeple. For instantaneous turn, you can drop flap all the way to landing and pull insane G to get shots off without damaging the flaps.

You've got to fly it defensively (it's very good at this) and avoid getting into mindless turn fights.

[Doughguy]

Second what kablamoman is saying.

The biggest threat is the Pony. And if you happen to engage with a pro pilot.. situation looks bleak.

The dora can turn with the mustang yes and against AI its just an excercise in patience... the lack of MW50 just prolongs it while the mustang just spirals upward. 
Not the most ideal thing to do tho.

Ideally, you want to maintain a combat speed of over 400kph.

The dora can turn with a spit or mustang if its fast enough. Extend  startflaps and bobs your uncle. But its a tightrope. Too fast/too tight pull and flaps or guns break.

Im flying against my teammates quite often and just today i was fighting one in a K4. K4 basically bein a spit of roidrage.

The first few neutral merges we both climbed up in a left turn. The k4 quickly gaining advantage and only flying tactically hiding in clouds etc saved my 6 numerous times.

Now, i tried something different. Him doin the left side pull up after the merge, i immediately dropped flaps and pulled hard after him, denying him turning room.

It resulted in an yoyo circle fight in which i climbed always a bit higher than him on the upwards slope.

I was pretty much flying near stall edge but could maintain to stay on his six. Also keeping the speed up  on dives enabled me to get closer and turn tighter than him. The k4 has a very bad high speed maneuvering and control surfaces lock in a dive rather fast.

so the first time i forced him from a yoyo fight into a dive from which he did not recover and crashed into the ground. The 2nd time the same thing. Yoyo fight but then it shifted into a vertical circle (looping) fight. again, with speed and bit of flaps i managed to gain on him and shred him with 20mm.

Neither him and i are pro pilots, but the K4 is more of the turnfighter.

The Dora simply has to applied differently and flown pretty much conservately and fast. As it was said, look for vicitms and not for fair duels.

If one flies in a pack of Doras they will usually pretty much tear the enemy flight apart. The Dora is a great drag an bagger, as it can extend quickly and many folks will get target fixation and not see the wingman swoop in from the low.

I agree tho, that without the MW50, its gonna be a lot harder and the fight has to be fought with even more discipline.

Edited January 10 by Doughguy