Tips for flying formation with AI?

[Dragon1-1]

I'm on Mission 2, and boy, that one's hard. I'm having trouble flying formation, particularly parade, in a safe way. Is there a trick to flying close formation with AI while it's turning, particularly the unannounced turns? I'm constantly worried Paco will suddenly turn into me, resulting in a crash. It seems that the AI is changing its bank relatively quickly and not giving me time to correct. It's bad enough with loose parade, but in close, it's ridiculous.

I suspect that part is much harder than IRL. From what I saw on airshows, formation rolls are generally done slowly enough that the wingman has the time to follow the wingtip. I know there's probably nothing that can be done here, because you can't clamp the roll rate for DCS AI, so I'm asking anyone who got through it, how do you deal with it?

[Reflected]

Yeah how fast the AI rolls is hard coded in DCS. I can't change it. TBH Paco suggested turns that are even harder, more bank angle. What I noticed is that in 2D, parade formation is really stretching it, always about to collide, but when I first tried in VR it was easier than cruise form in 2D

[Dragon1-1]

More bank angle would not be a problem if the roll rate was sensible. I have little trouble staying plugged with a tanker in a turn, and in the other Viper sim I tanked (in 2D) in much steeper turns. Of course, the tanker rolls are rather sedate, and in that other sim, it always warns you, then establishes a single roll rate and keeps it through the maneuver until it's at the desired bank angle. OTOH, matching a fast roll, even a relatively small one, requires large control inputs, and that's difficult to keep under control. I can't even imagine doing this in 2D.

I hope ED exposes some more parameters when GFM becomes a thing. Being able to specify max roll rate the AI would use would be great, I can see a few scenarios where it'd be of use.

Also, I don't suppose there's a chance of giving Paco a hi-vis scheme for this hop?  With a Reverb G2 I have trouble seeing that triangle on his side. Doesn't stop me from holding a formation (I use the RIO canopy bow as a reference instead), but it's harder to align precisely.

[sze5003]

In VR it's a little easier but once I get a "good job" in close parade and then Paco starts turning or climbing unannounced and i have to keep up with him, makes it much more difficult because he changes pitch too much. I still did not pass this one yet but I did notice staying somewhat close to him does not trigger the "you're too far" message where you have some wiggle room to correct and try to stay close until the grade pops up.

[martinistripes]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:15 AM, Reflected said:

Yeah how fast the AI rolls is hard coded in DCS. I can't change it. TBH Paco suggested turns that are even harder, more bank angle. What I noticed is that in 2D, parade formation is really stretching it, always about to collide, but when I first tried in VR it was easier than cruise form in 2D

I also just tried this mission on a flat screen and it was hellish and frustrating. I'm going to try in VR and suspect this will help. When I switched from flat screen to VR in sim racing I found I was much better at judging distances and driving close without making contact.

[Dragon1-1]

Finally did it! Below average, but TBH, I'm happy I passed at all. Seeing as every task that didn't involve holding hands with DCS AI in close formation came out "Above Average", quite a few on first try (of course, I'll wait with bragging till we see the final grade sheet ), I'd say it's the AI not my flying skills. My AAR is rusty, but I was so tired and stressed after all that formation flying, that I decided to practice it in some other mission and maybe come back and refly this one. Or maybe just fly a little, get better at plugging, and then try to get a good grade at night. 

I came out of this firmly convinced that the problem is roll rate. The Tomcat, if it wants to, rolls fast. Unannounced turns of any kind simply give you no time to realize the lead is doing something and react to it. Doesn't really matter how much angle of bank he ends up at, it matter how fast he gets there. I'm sure if you ask Paco, he'll admit he wouldn't just slam the stick to port or starboard without warning, like DCS AI does, and expect the hapless trainee to keep up. This is made worse that when lead rolls, the wing has to move up or down, which needs to be done in a controlled manner, which is hard when you have to do it fast. ED needs to be pushed to implement a roll rate limiter for such (and many other) scenarios.

Now I just have to do more or less the same thing, only at night... At least there's no tac turns, so it'll go faster. Hopefully.

Edited July 13, 2024 by Dragon1-1

[martinistripes]

Is anyone completing the formation flying and/or AAR sections with a desktop stick and flat screen? I keep trying VR (every few months) but never happy enough with the clarity and framerate to stick with it. Also, I don't have the luxury of setting up a home cockpit with stick extension (which I presume also helps a lot with making slight input adjustments).

I'm just curious, if others are doing it with similar set ups, then I have no excuse and just need to double down on my efforts.

[cesarferrolho]

But what are the grade levels? Is it a distance thing, alignment mostly? both?

On 8/20/2024 at 7:30 AM, martinistripes said:

Is anyone completing the formation flying and/or AAR sections with a desktop stick and flat screen? I keep trying VR (every few months) but never happy enough with the clarity and framerate to stick with it. Also, I don't have the luxury of setting up a home cockpit with stick extension (which I presume also helps a lot with making slight input adjustments).

I'm just curious, if others are doing it with similar set ups, then I have no excuse and just need to double down on my efforts.

Yeah, i completed missions 2 and 3 (poor grades though). I use sidestick, like in the F-16 (no force sensor though), but with adjusted curves. And a 31.5" inch screen and head tracking.

AAR is much easier for me if i use 55º wing sweep (bomb mode), it gives more stable pitch...