Interesting article about E-E conflict in late '90s

[RvETito]

During this conflict many things have been implemented on these planes (mostly maintenance related) that are yet to be inntroduced in the Russian Air Force. Here are some, translating from the article:

1. Copmressor blades RAI at home plate. In Russia this is done only in overhaul factories.

2. Visual inspection of operation of the wheels cooling fans has taken 15 min work per aircraft. In Russia it lasts 18 months already and the end is yet to be seen.

3. For two months in Ethiopia has been developed and implemented wiring scheme for mix use of rockets and bombs on the Mi-24. On russian Hinds not possible- either bombs or rockets.

4. Using new batteries control methods an on-condition service has been implemented for the 15STzS-45 nad 20NKBN25 batteries which is still not done in Russia although those methods date from 1993.

5. For one week is implemented methodology for control of the magnetic deviation of inertial systems IKV and Tz-050 while this still is not fact in Russia given the methods date ... 1977.

6. Within few months is implemented local on-the-line overhaul of most of the avionics components of the Su-27, something on what is working a whole department of 13 GosNII ERAT since 1993 and still there is no approved solution.

 

So this conflict might be the only one where russian modern fighters have been used properly, maintenance including.

[nscode]

Who did this maintenance?

[Pilotasso]

Su-27's and their missiles came from russia. Incredibly it may sound, flown by a russian merc squad.

 

long live Strike commander heh? :D

[nscode]

I know that, but I'm asking about maintenance. More importantly, who did maintenance control?

[RedTiger]

So this conflict might be the only one where russian modern fighters have been used properly, maintenance including.

 

I've re-read the article both with babelfish and google translate and really digested it and I agree. One of my long-standing questions was answered by the article about whether either side had any ground-controlled radar and apparently they did. I know having GCI isn't that huge of a deal, but again, Ethiopia, misconceptions, and all that. ;)

 

The end of that article takes you by surprise. All this information on how the engagements played out and then a conclusion that is very critical of the Russian air force's practices.

[GGTharos]

Actually GCI is a big deal for the Russian AC, IIRC. Especially when datalink equipped, the GCI can steer a mig to a specific target for example.

[RedTiger]

Actually GCI is a big deal for the Russian AC, IIRC. Especially when datalink equipped, the GCI can steer a mig to a specific target for example.

 

No, what I mean is that a country having a GCI system isn't a big deal, like in contrast to operating an AWACS or developing your own. Even a relatively poor country could have GCI. I could imagine it being one of the most basic things needed for national defense. I had wondered if these fighters had any type of help from the ground or if they were just using their own radars and SPO.

Edited March 30, 2009 by RedTiger

[RvETito]

Who did this maintenance?

 

Assuming that the pilots and ground crew have been trained in Krasnodar (according to the article) where there is an overhaul factory as well I suppose representatives of this plant are the ones to assemble and test the planes. The article also says that local personel has also taken active part in the assemble.

[Vekkinho]

It's not unusual to see better equipped export (K for commercial) variants of certain Russian aircraft compared to S (serial) airframes used by Russian VVS and PVO. For example take a look at Algerian Gorbatovs that were rejected by Algerian AF and now serve in Russian wing from Lipetsk. It was the case with CCCP (we remember export Fulcrum As being slightly downgraded) but now if you've got the money you can have anything you wish in your pit assembled in modern Russia! French or Israeli electronics, NATO armament you name it...

 

Russian pilots dream of flying those glass pit 4+ gen MiG-29SMTs whereas Algerian pilots find them unsatisfactory. You may also think of Alger as a country with lots of economical problems just like you imagined Ethiopia but remember people who starve fly no jets and can't do anything about it! Having a 4+ gen fighter in your government's inventory probably means more poverty in the streets so we better don't underestimate poor man's weapon!

 

Now as a conclusion, before we stray too deep into politics, more military might more hungry mouth to feed!

Edited March 30, 2009 by Vekkinho

[Maximus_G]

What so strange about it? The N001E can provide longer SARH missile guidance in STT compared to the N019E, hence LA will come sooner for the Su-27 even when using the same missiles.

Alright. I guess you understand that this would happen only when the missile range is bigger than the radar lock range. Because if the radar locks its target before missile is in Дрмакс, there is no difference in the moment of missile launch.

 

Let's turn to the source.

 

В полетах выяснилась, по реальным разрешенным дальностям, расшифровка буквы "Э" на ракетах Р-27Р(Т)Э. Оказывается, это означало "Экспортная", а не "Энергетическая", как вначале думали. Реально это почти уравнивало шансы Су-27 и МиГ-29 в дальнем ракетном бою. Преимущество Су-27 по допустимому времени пуска ракет типа Р-27 с Су-27 и МиГ-29 при обоюдной атаке на встречных курсах сводилось всего к 1-2 секундой разнице, вместо предполагаемой 5-7 секундной.

 

During flights there appeared the real meaning of "E" letter of R-27R(T)E, based on LA distances. It turned to be "Export", not "Energetic", as they've been thinking. In reality it almost equalized chances of Su-27 and MiG-29 in BVR fight. The advantage of Su-27 in allowable time of launch of missiles like R-27 from Su-27 and MiG-29 during mutual head-on attack was around 1-2 seconds, instead of presumed 5-7 seconds.

 

"Допустимое время пуска" cannot be understood precisely even in Russian, because it's semantically incorrect. You can presume that he's talking about period of illumination time, or he's talking about the moment when "LA" appears, i.e. the range.

And we can see that he is talking about missiles and their range! Saying that "E" missile didn't provide a significantly longer Дрмакс range. That's what they had discovered during flights. That's why they found no advantage.

 

Now if we open the manuals for the Su and Mig, we will see that both of them have the same amount of time when radar illuminates the target after launch. It's 60 seconds. Regardless missile type, whether it is R-27R or ER.

 

If we dig more, we will see that "export" part in the missile name is not the "E", it's "1".

R-27R1, R-27ER1.

While "E" means larger motor.

 

The man looks like he's a professional maintenance technician, but not in what concerns weapons systems, and he's even farther from their tactical usage.

Lemme argue again by reading another part of text.

 

На следующий день противник решил подловить дежуривший в воздухе Су-27, и в конце его дежурства послал самолет типа МиГ-29 в сторону столицы Эфиопии. Наземный пункт управления заметил цель на большой высоте и сразу же начал наводить Су-27 с бортовым номером "58". Все происходило почти как на учениях до последней минуты, когда наземным пунктом наведения был обнаружен еще один МиГ-29, идущий на малой высоте и внезапно начавший прицеливание по Су-27. К чести пилота Су-27, несмотря на предупреждение с земли, а позднее и трели "Березы", сигнализирующей о захвате его самолета прицелом противника и возможном пуске уже по нему, он успел за крайне ограниченное время прицелиться и пустить две ракеты Р-27Т, которые поразили цель. Эритрейский пилот Ионас погиб. Второй самолет противника, увидев падающие обломки напарника, срочно отвернул и вернулся на свой аэродром. Из-за малого остатка топлива Су-27 также должен был возвратиться на свою базу. После посадки у него в баках осталось около 200 кг керосина, что составляет менее половины разрешенного аварийного остатка.

 

Тщательный анализ боя показал, что пилот Су-27 не был сбит только потому, что в полной мере реализовал преимущество Су-27, имеющего несколько большую разрешенную дальность пуска (вот они 2 секунды!!!) и в данном случае большую скорость полета.

 

On the next day the foe decided to catch up the Su-27 flying CAP, and when this CAP was almost over, they sent a MiG-29 in the direction of Ethiopian capital. Ground station found the target at a big altitude and started guiding Su-27, tail number 58. It was happening almost like in training until last minute, when ground station found another MiG-29 flying low. It suddenly began targeting Su-27. To Sukhoi's pilot's honor, despite warning from the ground and later the Beryoza warble, signaling of his plane's lock by the enemy an presumable launch on him, he managed to aim and fire 2 R-27T in a very short period of time, and they hit the target. Eritrean pilot Yonas died. Second enemy plane saw his wingman's pieces falling, urgently bugged out and returned to his airbase. Because of low fuel, Su-27 had to return too. After landing he had about 200 kg of fuel, less than half of allowed remaining amount.

 

Thorough evaluation of this fight showed that Su-27 pilot wasn't shot down only because he fully applied the Su-27 advantage, having somewhat bigger allowed launch distance (these 2 seconds!!!) and in this case the higher flying speed.

 

Do i have to write that R-27T is a fire-and-forget missile, it does not use radiocorrection. The radar can be used here only to point the missile in the target direction, and LA appears when missile seeker locks onto the target. Now think, what kind of "Su-27 advantage" and "2 seconds" he is talking about.

You see? Making such conclusions is not a strong part of him, given all the credits to his knowledge of ground servicing, his evidence of those events, and our recognition to his writing of this article.

 

For the dessert, think how could it happen - 1 plane uses R-27(E)T, while its opponents for some reason don't use R-27R in advance. Let me remind you that, for MiG, pessimistic target lock range of a 3 sq.m target, head-on aspect, is 40 km, by the manual. While detection range is 50-70.

 

I don't state the article is the whole truth, it just gives another point of view.

That's why i decided to stress it out. When the author talks about both sides, he is speculating, because he obviously doesn't know the details from the other side. Judge the sources thoroughly.

 

And it doesn't say anything new actualy,

This information is TOTALLY new and quite detailed.

The other sources of several years old were talking a very different thing, like almost 100% R-27 misses, and all kills made by R-73.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Maximus_G

[Pilotasso]

Its a little strange that the mig went up straight into the flanker and didnt fire his R-27R. According to this description the seperation between the 2 couldnt be more than a few miles.

[GGTharos]

Not so strange if there's ECM involved ...

[CE_Mikemonster]

Its a little strange that the mig went up straight into the flanker and didnt fire his R-27R. According to this description the seperation between the 2 couldnt be more than a few miles.

 

Don't know what ECM these planes used, but what about HOJ or ECM black spots?

 

I've always thought basic ECM is for more favourable positioning prior to MRM launch (in terms of a pure A2A engagement).

 

I can't help thinking that E-E engagements wouldn't have the structure to use ECM in a complex manner, more simply just in an on/off manner at long range to jam an aggressors radar. Inside two miles with any ECM you'll get burnthrough, surely? Especially in the vertical plane?

[GGTharos]

HoJ is not a way to defeat ECM - merely a way to increase your Pk from what the ECM decreased it to :)

 

As far as burn-through goes; who knows. You might get it inside 800', actually, if we're talking sheer over-powering. At that point your best ECCM in the WVR arena is your R-73 ;)

 

 

While MiG-29A's carry no ECM, the Flanker may. And the MiG-29A radar might never even know it's being jammed ... it'll just show you an empty scope and that's it.