Need to replace PC - WITH WHAT????

[MadDogMcQ]

Hi Guyz,

When I bought my Abit NF7-S based PC with a Radeon 9800 512Mb video card, it was the dog's dangly bits and I invested in 2 gigs of pricey Twin Matched Corsair PC3200 DDR400 memory too.

 

For years, it has run superbly well and took me through my Falcon and Lockon years. Recently though, the vidcard failed so I chucked a HD3850 into it but realise that it's about time to put the old girl out to rest.

 

What should I be buying for about £2k?? I ONLY want the machine for Lockon and BS.

 

Please be specific with your recommendations. Many thanks!

 

Tom

[qrazi]

Knowing how much need Lockon and DCS:BS have for a powerfull CPU, and considering your budget, I'd advice you to go for a system with Intel Core i7, 6GB DDR3 kit and Radeon 4870/Geforce GTX285 class videocard.

[EtherealN]

To be honest, I am not convinced in any way of the virtues of the i7. You have to disable hyperthreading for the top-line i7 to reliably beat a Core2Duo E8500 in games. The difference in price just isn't worth it, in my opinion.

 

The advantage of the i7 is that it gets you a socket 1366 system, which should be more upgradeable in the future, but unless you intend to do mid-life CPU switches that is pretty pointless. Going with DDR3 is definitely good though.

 

Also, expensive graphics cards like the GTX285 is entirely pointless. My 9800GTX+ has a lot of power to spare for BS, so a 285 is just pure overkill. If only using LOMAC and BS I would definitely recommend looking at the 9800 line - they can do the trick with cycles to spare and they are pretty cheap. If they become too weak in the future you'll have saved some money to use on a simple upgrade then.

[hitman]

Oh I dunno...my i7 scored 16k in 3dMark06, which is impressive enough as it is, and Ive never turned off hyperthreading. Matter of fact, I can use FRAPS recording a video while playing LOFC missions online without even losing FPS. My Q6600 wouldnt even allow that!

 

My system cost nearly 2000 bucks to upgrade, and boy does she smoke! The only thing I didnt like about the i7 was the HSF, which means you WILL have to get a 3rd party fan for it. It overclocks nicely, the DDR3 ram runs in TRI channel and not dual channel, you can have up to 24gbs of memory, and its like a dream come true.

 

Not to break the bank, I have this setup perfect for something your looking for:

i7 920+ eVGA X58 = $575

Thermaltake TruePower 1000w = $300

2xeVGA GTX260 Core 216 for SLI mode = $400

ASUS VW224U Black 22" LCD = $150

Corsair Dominator pc3-12800 6gb = $156

Thermaltake Armor+ case = $200

Vigor Monsoon heatsink for i7 chipset = $60

 

If you have all your old computer components like hard drives, optical drives, etc, this setup will work miracles. Faster than Jesus Christ on a moped, I will tell you what.

[Safari Ken]

I'm not sure what the conversion rate between dollars and pounds is currently, nor do I know what prices you guys pay for stuff over there, but here's my two cents.

 

There is quite an improvement in overall performance with Core i7. However, being as new as it is, it's not quite yet cost effective for a gaming-specific machine (not only are the i7 components more expensive, but you have other considerations, such as requiring DDR3 memory). The prices will drop soon enough, however, and it's not an insignificant boost in speed.

 

If you don't want to wait for prices to come down a bit, I'd stick with a Core2Duo or Core2Quad. I run a C2Q 9300, and it's freakin excellent (like Hitman above me, Fraps records video so well for me that I sometimes forget I'm even recording). Much more affordable than a Core i7 system, as well. Basically, stick with Intel, get plenty of RAM, run Vista64, and I'm sure you'll be quite happy.

[EtherealN]

Oh I dunno...my i7 scored 16k in 3dMark06, which is impressive enough as it is, and Ive never turned off hyperthreading.

 

3dmark is a synthetic benchmark, it doesn't tell you all that much about specific performance in a given game. This article does:

 

http://techreport.com/articles.x/15818

 

Performance in most of those games you can see is rediculously low for the dollar. The i7 can beat the E8600 used in the test, but the margins are small until you go to either synthetic tests or stuff like 3D modeling and suchlike.

 

So sure, you can beat an E8600 if you buy yourself an i7 965 Extreme and disable hyperthreading. Worth the money? Hell no. And since the guy said he was going to use it mainly for LockOn and DCS, there is absolutely no point in the i7's compared to Core2's. The price point on the Core2's is way below the i7 by wide margins, and neither DCS nor LockOn will be using the benefits of hyperthreading or extra cores for the foreseeable future. (They're doing 64-bit first.)

 

So if it was a general system for varied applications that will also do DCS and Lockon, then the i7 might be a good investment. But if the only objective of it is to play DCS and Lockon, there is no point other than specifically getting a socket1366 system for future processor upgrades.

 

EDIT: I see you're a fellow overclocker though, and you running that 920 at 3.9GHz does go a bit of the way to explain good performance. :P So if the OP is also open to overclocking the system then sure, the system as listed by you would be a good purchase. But it would be a good purchase for shooters, 3d rendering and such tasks. For Lockon and DCS? No point, it'll at best give you a few FPS extra, which the price diff just isn't worth. The system as listed in my sig will play DCS consistently at ~30fps and up - most of the time sitting at the 60 due to my V-sync but on occassional really massive maps it'll be at 30 over the action with Skhval on. That's with graphics at maximum. And the system below was very very cheap. :P

Edited April 1, 2009 by EtherealN

[AlphaInfinity]

Oh I dunno...my i7 scored 16k in 3dMark06, which is impressive enough as it is, and Ive never turned off hyperthreading. Matter of fact, I can use FRAPS recording a video while playing LOFC missions online without even losing FPS. My Q6600 wouldnt even allow that!

 

My system cost nearly 2000 bucks to upgrade, and boy does she smoke! The only thing I didnt like about the i7 was the HSF, which means you WILL have to get a 3rd party fan for it. It overclocks nicely, the DDR3 ram runs in TRI channel and not dual channel, you can have up to 24gbs of memory, and its like a dream come true.

 

Not to break the bank, I have this setup perfect for something your looking for:

i7 920+ eVGA X58 = $575

Thermaltake TruePower 1000w = $300

2xeVGA GTX260 Core 216 for SLI mode = $400

ASUS VW224U Black 22" LCD = $150

Corsair Dominator pc3-12800 6gb = $156

Thermaltake Armor+ case = $200

Vigor Monsoon heatsink for i7 chipset = $60

 

If you have all your old computer components like hard drives, optical drives, etc, this setup will work miracles. Faster than Jesus Christ on a moped, I will tell you what.

 

Go with the i7920 if you have the money to spend and if you are on a budget, grab an e8600. In terms of the "hyperthreading" comments that I have seen here and elsewhere, I notice NO performance decrease when using hyperthreading and trust me, I have tried Black Shark with hyperthreading on and OFF. Overall, the i7 is the fastest processor for everyday use and the 920 is beating the core 2 extreme processors in synthetic benchmarks but keep in mind that for Black Shark, processor speed is really the determining factor on how well this games runs and the syntetic benchmarks won't tell you anything there. I have posted lots of screenshots from my system using a GTX 260 192 card and the game plays very well at very high resolutions.

 

The other comments about price are fair though and I was seriously looking at the E8600 processor before deciding on the I7 because of future upgrade ability with the new platform. My I7 is currently overclocked to 3.27 and for those that think that two video cards in SLI mode will help you..... SLI does NOTHING for you in this game and may actually decrease performance. Don't worry about buying two video cards.

Edited April 1, 2009 by AlphaInfinity

[EtherealN]

Aye alpha, I do realise that mileage may vary with hyperthreading and since I don't have an i7 myself I can't be authoritative on that. I've helped out a couple people with i7's on the help forum though and they have often reported than disabling HT did help boost their FPS.

 

Obviously though, disabling HT will very likely decrease performance in a host of other applications, so whether it is worth it even when it works is an open question.

[AlphaInfinity]

Aye alpha, I do realise that mileage may vary with hyperthreading and since I don't have an i7 myself I can't be authoritative on that. I've helped out a couple people with i7's on the help forum though and they have often reported than disabling HT did help boost their FPS.

 

Obviously though, disabling HT will very likely decrease performance in a host of other applications, so whether it is worth it even when it works is an open question.

 

Agreed, it seems pretty obvious to me that if we disable four "logical" processors that the operating system can use for background processing....that probably wouldn't be a good thing if you are using Vista. Perhaps the folks having problems with hyperthreading were using Windows XP. :book:

[EtherealN]

The only one I can remember off-the-cuff which OS he used was actually using Vista64.

 

But there are so many variations in systems that it's hard to predict the why and wherefore. So I'd say it's simply there as an alternative to try out for those that do end up having issues - if it works it's awesome, if it doesn't they can move back.

[MadDogMcQ]

Thanks for the replies ppl. Lot to think about there.

[hitman]

Yep...honestly, if you want to build it off the cheap just for BlackShark, stick to a normal Q6700 quadcore processor, a 780i nvidia chipset, and a GTX260 Core 216, and get yourself 4 gbs of pc2-8000 ram. Costs around...$700 tops. Problem is, if you get those new video cards (9600GT and above, likewise with ATi), you will have to have a decent size case to fit them in. They arent short cards, they reach about 11" in length. So figure in a case as well.

[Safari Ken]

I like my Antec 900 case very much. Lots and lots of airflow, but the fans are so big (the one on top is a 200mm I think), that the case is extremely quiet, yet keeps every nice and cool. In fact, my high-end PC runs cooler under load than my old computer ran idle, and I attribute that to the case more than anything..

[shadowze]

I have tried several types of configurations with different parts types

 

In the last couple of years I have had a e6600 , q6600 and an i7 920

I have tried a couple of P35 chipset mobos , one P45 and an x58

 

The i7 920 at default 2.66 was about equal to my Q6600 overclocked to 3.3G in processing power.

 

Currently my i7 is clocked at 3.6G and is a flying machine ,

I tried a gtx280 and also a 4870x2 in both my q6600 system and my i7 system.

 

The GTX280 wins hands down , while the 4870x2 is impressive in benchmarks

the frame rate is very inconsistant which lead to intermittant frame rate drops

which are annoying.

 

Suggest you get:

i7 920 + decent aftermarket cooler

6G of 1600Mhz ram

X58 motherboard of your choice

GTX285 , I would avoid crossfire / SLI ( after all you are at the mercy of the driver writers tweaking things to make your game run well )

800W PSU or higher would do it.

 

My current 3dmark 06 is 20442 with my current system ( with HT off )

[hitman]

I have tried several types of configurations with different parts types

 

In the last couple of years I have had a e6600 , q6600 and an i7 920

I have tried a couple of P35 chipset mobos , one P45 and an x58

 

The i7 920 at default 2.66 was about equal to my Q6600 overclocked to 3.3G in processing power.

 

Currently my i7 is clocked at 3.6G and is a flying machine ,

I tried a gtx280 and also a 4870x2 in both my q6600 system and my i7 system.

 

The GTX280 wins hands down , while the 4870x2 is impressive in benchmarks

the frame rate is very inconsistant which lead to intermittant frame rate drops

which are annoying.

 

Suggest you get:

i7 920 + decent aftermarket cooler

6G of 1600Mhz ram

X58 motherboard of your choice

GTX285 , I would avoid crossfire / SLI ( after all you are at the mercy of the driver writers tweaking things to make your game run well )

800W PSU or higher would do it.

 

My current 3dmark 06 is 20442 with my current system ( with HT off )

How is it that your score is that high when mine barely passes 16k? I can o/c my gpu to 720/1500/1200 and barely pass 16k at 3.9ghz/1520mhz ram.

[shadowze]

Iam running XP , I didnt want Vista to slow my PC down too much

[EtherealN]

You're running a cpu with a total of 8 logical cores on XP? O.o

SHAME! :P

 

Anyways...

 

Yep...honestly, if you want to build it off the cheap just for BlackShark, stick to a normal Q6700 quadcore processor, a 780i nvidia chipset, and a GTX260 Core 216, and get yourself 4 gbs of pc2-8000 ram. Costs around...$700 tops

 

I'd personally say E8400-E8500 is even better if the machine is strictly for Black Shark purposes. Higher clock and with how the BS engine runs nowadays it's really clock that matters, not total power across the multiple cores.

 

Though there's a lot to be said for being prepared for the future, too, ofc. I don't know how the quads are for overclocking, but if they are anywhere near the E series, when combined with a 780i you will always have the option of adding something like an extra gigahertz or so without going to liquid cooling. The only extra expense to expect for that would be something like 50 dollars worth of aftermarket cooler. (Just do some research before purchasing to be sure that it works as advertised and most importantly fits inside your case without bumping into PSU or RAM or any heatsink/heatpipe assemblies on the motherboard - I personally prefer copper heatsinks, but that is 50/50 between good looks and actual function over alternatives. If you do end up with a Core2 solution on a 780i, I would definitely recommend the Zalman 9700. Very good pack that's easy to install. And it looks awesome. :D )

 

As for cases, yeah... My 9800GTX+ is just insanely massive. The last GPU I've owned on a stationary (I've been laptop-bound for a few years due to work) was a 7800 and I thought that one was big. :D On the old case I was very rewstricted in where I could mount harddrives due to the graphics card actually intruding into the HDD cabinet. :P

 

...so I got myself the 932 HAF by cooler master, massively stpidly big case with a stupid amount of cooling work built in, and I'm very happy with it. Unfortunately, it's focus on promoting airflow was such that there was no consideration for decreasing the sound level... But it's pretty nice being able to feel the airflow when sitting next to it.

[Kuky]

I would not recomend going for i7 CPU's because in my point of view they are not good value for money... the i7 920 is actually alright but the 940 and 965...forget about it... you'd rather overclock the 920 and get same thing :music_whistling: and then again the DDR3 memonry is lot more expensive compared to DDR2.

 

Anywho, I'm gonna quote this and say:

 

I

My current 3dmark 06 is 20442 with my current system ( with HT off )

 

with E8500 overclocked to 4GHz and 2x HD4870 in CF (I don't recomend CF setup though as they can give lot of trouble and they are also not good value for money) I used to get 19700 points in 3D Mark 06... my point being, the CPU/MB/VGA combo I have is cheaper then i7 920 etc... and does very much the same thing... Right now (after I sold one HD4870 card) I'm runing E8500 @ 3.8Ghz and have 4GB of DDR2 and sinle HD4870. In LockOn and BS it does very nicely as well and I don't get bellow 20fps even in high scenery enabled and mirrors... so unless you want the best and have money and want to updgrade again soon, I'd stay with E8XXX series CPU's.

[hitman]

I would not recomend going for i7 CPU's because in my point of view they are not good value for money... the i7 920 is actually alright but the 940 and 965...forget about it... you'd rather overclock the 920 and get same thing :music_whistling: and then again the DDR3 memonry is lot more expensive compared to DDR2.

I recently saw 6bgs of Corsair Dominator pc3-12800 ram on newegg yesterday for less than $150...I dont think its going to get any better than that. Matter of fact, here it is:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145224

[hitman]

You're running a cpu with a total of 8 logical cores on XP? O.o

SHAME! :P

 

Anyways...

 

 

 

I'd personally say E8400-E8500 is even better if the machine is strictly for Black Shark purposes. Higher clock and with how the BS engine runs nowadays it's really clock that matters, not total power across the multiple cores.

Yeah your right, but I forgot to turn off FRAPS again today...forgot all about it. :music_whistling: 100gbs of hard disk space wasted! Good thing about this i7 processor is that it does multimedia wonders. But if one is really just into flight sims that take hold of only single apps, a duo core processor would work. Why not an AMD instead? IIRC, an FX60 did better benchmarks than the older C2Q before AMD started going downhill...

[EtherealN]

Well, since you mentioned it I actually tried running FRAPS too yesterday.

 

Zero performance hit.

 

Fraps is usually more HDD-dependant anyway, and since both processors does have one or more cores "free" anyhow I don't expect there to be mch difference as long as there's no memory or HDD bottlenecks.

[Kuky]

I recently saw 6bgs of Corsair Dominator pc3-12800 ram on newegg yesterday for less than $150...I dont think its going to get any better than that. Matter of fact, here it is:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145224

 

Alright hitman, true, just checked and DDR3 is now lot cheaper then few months ago :thumbup:

[EtherealN]

Aye, that's one of the things I regret with my system. I should have waited about a month or two with buying it and gotten a DDR3 mobo with DDR3 memory instead. It would have added a couple of price points on the system but would have been worth it.

 

That said though, paying ~75 dollars US (including the 25% VAT/sales tax) for sticks that run comfortably at 1092MHz isn't all that bad.

[Safari Ken]

Yeah your right, but I forgot to turn off FRAPS again today...forgot all about it. :music_whistling: 100gbs of hard disk space wasted!

 

My problem was that I'd lose track of whether it was recording, then still hit the hotkey to toggle it on and off. The end result being me recording everything EXCEPT what I was trying for. :doh:

 

I think I saw that the latest version adds a feature where the tray icon turns red while you're recording (long overdue!), but I haven't gotten around to upgrading yet. Turns out the Fraps module on the G15 keyboard LCD has a little icon that shows when you're recording... thank goodness. Saves me a lot of trouble!

[EtherealN]

Safari Ken, I bought FRAPS something like 4 years ago and it did that even back then. Or at least, the FRAPS FPS counter does.