Community Workshop

[Evanjsmay]

Hi,

I would like to suggest the implementation of a community workshop with main menu integration.

The idea being that the community could share in-game created missions and liveries, and download/install at the push of a button ultimately leading to a wider community interaction.

This would add ease of access to such files with the implementation of tags and a filter capability. This could also indicate any incompatibilites due to uninstalled modules.

Furthermore an integration of user voting & reporting capability would reduce need for official moderation.

This could be further expanded on by allowing the publisher of missions to add tracked objectives ultimately allowing for the implementation of leaderboard functionality with metrics such as user effectiveness and time elapsed.

Edit: As mentioned in the replies, the inclusion of mods should not be overlooked. The inclusion of mods under the same system would make their install quicker and easier whilst minimising the risk of messing up your DCS install. 

This would also introduce the ability for multiplayer serves to check you have the required mods, and install them for you if you do not. Another byproduct to this is it would make joining squadrons a lot easier by reducing the effort required by the squad to get new players connected - again resulting in a more connected community.

Thanks for the consideration.

 

Edited January 18 by Evanjsmay

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Evanjsmay said:

Hi,

I would like to suggest the implementation of a community workshop with main menu integration.

The idea being that the community could share in-game created missions and liveries, and download/install at the push of a button ultimately leading to a wider community interaction.

This would add ease of access to such files with the implementation of tags and a filter capability. This could also indicate any incompatibilites due to uninstalled modules.

Furthermore an integration of user voting & reporting capability would reduce need for official moderation.

This could be further expanded on by allowing the publisher of missions to add tracked objectives ultimately allowing for the implementation of leaderboard functionality with metrics such as user effectiveness and time elapsed.

Thanks for the consideration.

 

Toss in mods and I think it would be really awesome, 

[Evanjsmay]

hace 18 minutos, upyr1 dijo:

Toss in mods and I think it would be really awesome, 

Probably a lot harder to do from a technical aspect as some mods require files to be installed in specific areas that would need to be scripted by the publisher, but not impossible.

Some files may need to be replaced which would require the application to be closed if any of said files are in-use.

Even with the above in mind, I agree with you, it would be very cool.

[SharpeXB]

The upcoming Game Launcher could have a link to the User Files section. Most of what you’re asking for is already here.
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/

Edited January 17 by SharpeXB

[upyr1]

3 hours ago, Evanjsmay said:

Probably a lot harder to do from a technical aspect as some mods require files to be installed in specific areas that would need to be scripted by the publisher, but not impossible.

Some files may need to be replaced which would require the application to be closed if any of said files are in-use.

Even with the above in mind, I agree with you, it would be very cool.

Most mods I have seen just need to be installed in the saved games folder. 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The upcoming Game Launcher could have a link to the User Files section. Most of what you’re asking for is already here.
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/

 

I hope it does a nice browser would be great 

[cfrag]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The upcoming Game Launcher could have a link to the User Files section. Most of what you’re asking for is already here.
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/

Indeed - and since the User Files are entirely under the control of ED, let us hope that the fabled new Launcher provides a lot more than just a link. One thing that I have learned from (not necessarily new) DCS users is that they feel that DCS appears byzantine to them: too many folders in too many locations with too little transparency. Having the launcher, for example, allow the user to temporarily (!!!) desanitize DCS, to install missions from the user files for their planes etc., or (yes, I know, thin ice) install/manage Liveries/Mods without the user having to know what goes where would go a long way to make DCS more accessible to many users, long-time and fresh. 

[Evanjsmay]

hace 17 horas, SharpeXB dijo:

The upcoming Game Launcher could have a link to the User Files section. Most of what you’re asking for is already here.
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/

 

Im really hoping for more of an interface with the described features. It would provide a quicker and better user experience. Like others have said, finding things in the user files can be quite convoluted and time consuming, and then its not even guaranteed to work. (Using guaranteed loosley - I know nothing is guaranteed).

[Tank50us]

3 hours ago, cfrag said:

Indeed - and since the User Files are entirely under the control of ED, let us hope that the fabled new Launcher provides a lot more than just a link. One thing that I have learned from (not necessarily new) DCS users is that they feel that DCS appears byzantine to them: too many folders in too many locations with too little transparency. Having the launcher, for example, allow the user to temporarily (!!!) desanitize DCS, to install missions from the user files for their planes etc., or (yes, I know, thin ice) install/manage Liveries/Mods without the user having to know what goes where would go a long way to make DCS more accessible to many users, long-time and fresh. 

This. We have what? Two separate programs that are designed to do this, but they require a whole bunch of work from each user to function correctly. And if you mess up one step, you basically have to start from scratch to try again... and I don't mean start from scratch in the program... In some cases it can completely wreck your DCS install, requiring a full re-download and install of the game in order to take another crack at it.

If this were handled in a launcher designed to manage all of the files for the user, then installing mods, even ones as intricate as the Super Bug and Sufa, would be a total breeze. Point the launcher to a mod, the launcher downloads, installs, and 'checks' the mod for functionality (basically does a short test of the mod to make sure it will run).

A short pie-in-the-sky possibility is that the launcher could even come with the ability to network mods that allow for multi-crew, and do so completely behind the scenes without the player having to mess with anything. This would massively open up the modding community to more Multi-seat aircraft... the possibilities are endless.

2 minutes ago, Evanjsmay said:

Im really hoping for more of an interface with the described features. It would provide a quicker and better user experience. Like others have said, finding things in the user files can be quite convoluted and time consuming, and then its not even guaranteed to work. (Using guaranteed loosley - I know nothing is guaranteed).

Yeah, that's the problem with the User Files right now. If you wanted to search, for example, a C-130 livery for the base game C-130 and not the mod... good luck... 95% of what you'll find are mod liveries, and very, very few AI Herc liveries. The same holds true for missions, and utilities. Mods are an even bigger nightmare. If this launcher had a more detailed search function, it could greatly improve the search function. More importantly, if a user had the ability to create a list that can be exported, it would make joining a squadron very simple as all the squadron would have to do, is send the new member a text file or html file, the point the launcher to that, and it automatically searches, downloads, and installs, every mod, mission and livery on the list.

[Evanjsmay]

hace 2 horas, Tank50us dijo:

If a user had the ability to create a list that can be exported, it would make joining a squadron very simple as all the squadron would have to do, is send the new member a text file or html file, the point the launcher to that, and it automatically searches, downloads, and installs, every mod, mission and livery on the list.

Hadnt thought of this, but this is a brilliant idea!

Even if its as basic as installing required mods when joining the multiplayer server it would be so much easier for the community as a whole!

This would only be possible by proper mod management integration, but this gives a whole new argument as to why we want them to do it.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Point the launcher to a mod, the launcher downloads, installs, and 'checks' the mod for functionality (basically does a short test of the mod to make sure it will run).

There’s no way for the game to “check” an unofficial mod for problems. I’m not sure how you think that would be done. And it’s not ED’s responsibility to vet these or manage them. 

3 hours ago, Evanjsmay said:

Like others have said, finding things in the user files can be quite convoluted and time consuming, and then its not even guaranteed to work.

Well there is already search or sorting functionality and such there. There are indeed a lot of files in some categories. Putting this into the main menu isn’t going to change that. 

6 hours ago, cfrag said:

Indeed - and since the User Files are entirely under the control of ED, let us hope that the fabled new Launcher provides a lot more than just a link. One thing that I have learned from (not necessarily new) DCS users is that they feel that DCS appears byzantine to them: too many folders in too many locations with too little transparency. Having the launcher, for example, allow the user to temporarily (!!!) desanitize DCS, to install missions from the user files for their planes etc., or (yes, I know, thin ice) install/manage Liveries/Mods without the user having to know what goes where would go a long way to make DCS more accessible to many users, long-time and fresh. 

I’m not sure why this is so hard for people. Sure if someone creates a file it’s good practice to include install instructions or a “readme” explaining where it goes or provide an installer. But that’s on the creator not ED to do. 

Edited January 18 by SharpeXB

[cfrag]

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But that’s on the creator not ED to do. 

It's on ED that they have - so far - not provided a simple, understandable and coherent way to customize DCS with regards to community-provided items; items that increase the value of DCS to the customers, and (hopefully) drive sales. 

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m not sure why this is so hard for people. Sure if someone creates a file it’s good practice to include install instructions or a “readme” explaining where it goes or provide an installer.

I think the point is that we can agree that the overwhelming perception from customers is that the process of installing community-provided content in DCS is unnecessarily convoluted, user-hostile, ill documented, non-standard and plain sub par - it does not reach the level of convenience that we can expect from a game that we spend hundreds if not thousands (in my case) of dollars for. If you tell a community author to 'suck it up and create an installer' then there's a 99% chance that you just lost a contributor. Having to create an installer is not trivial, and - far worse - many people rightfully do not trust (and neither should you) an installer that some rando from the internet created for your game. It would be much better if that functionality would be provided inside the security context of ED's app.

For demonstration purpose let's try this: de-sanitize DCS so that you can play a mission that uses persistence (save the state); then sanitize it back to standard. That process is arduous, non-standard, and user-hostile. Installing community provided missions? Anything but fun. Keeping them current with their source at ED User Files? A nightmare. These things can easily be automated and IMHO would provide a real, tangible uptick in accessibility. It's not that the user is lazy or too dumb. It's that we think we can expect more from those people who profit most from community content: ED.

My 0.02$ of course.

[Evanjsmay]

hace 33 minutos, SharpeXB dijo:

There’s no way for the game to “check” an unofficial mod for problems. I’m not sure how you think that would be done. And it’s not ED’s responsibility to vet these or manage them. 

Well there is already search or sorting functionality and such there. There are indeed a lot of files in some categories. Putting this into the main menu isn’t going to change that. 

I’m not sure why this is so hard for people. Sure if someone creates a file it’s good practice to include install instructions or a “readme” explaining where it goes or provide an installer. But that’s on the creator not ED to do. 

 

As a software engineer who has written a similar system before for a simulation company - I can tell you it can be done.

It would require the mod publisher to write a script. All the program would need to do is download the files, execute the script and then perform file validation. This results in the creator/publisher doing the work, not ED.

As stated in the original post - with the implementation of a reporting and voting system, ED would not have to manage this - it would be done by the community - simple as flagging something as not working, which could also assist with housekeeping and reducing storage on EDs servers currently by removing unfixed files - which would also make it easier to find stuff.

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, cfrag said:

It's on ED that they have - so far - not provided a simple, understandable and coherent way to customize DCS with regards to community-provided items; items that increase the value of DCS to the customers, and (hopefully) drive sales. 

I’m not sure what “customize DCS” means. The User Files are mostly simple files; missions, liveries etc that you just copy into a folder. The very definition of simple, understandable and coherent. If you mean something like unofficial aircraft mods that’s a separate issue and outside of ED’s responsibility. Just because they provide a repository for these doesn’t mean they’re responsible for them. That’s on the creator. 

[BIGNEWY]

21 minutes ago, cfrag said:

It's on ED that they have - so far - not provided a simple, understandable and coherent way to customize DCS with regards to community-provided items; items that increase the value of DCS to the customers, and (hopefully) drive sales. 

We will not tell you how to mod DCS, it is done at your own risk. There are many great community mods out there, but we can not use or test with them. If your DCS is crashing you will always be told to remove unofficial mods first. 

21 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I think the point is that we can agree that the overwhelming perception from customers is that the process of installing community-provided content in DCS is unnecessarily convoluted, user-hostile, ill documented, non-standard and plain sub par - it does not reach the level of convenience that we can expect from a game that we spend hundreds if not thousands (in my case) of dollars for. If you tell a community author to 'suck it up and create an installer' then there's a 99% chance that you just lost a contributor. Having to create an installer is not trivial, and - far worse - many people rightfully do not trust (and neither should you) an installer that some rando from the internet created for your game. It would be much better if that functionality would be provided inside the security context of ED's app.

For demonstration purpose let's try this: de-sanitize DCS so that you can play a mission that uses persistence (save the state); then sanitize it back to standard. That process is arduous, non-standard, and user-hostile. Installing community provided missions? Anything but fun. Keeping them current with their source at ED User Files? A nightmare. These things can easily be automated and IMHO would provide a real, tangible uptick in accessibility. It's not that the user is lazy or too dumb. It's that we think we can expect more from those people who profit most from community content: ED.

My 0.02$ of course.

I also think you are being unkind to the community modders out there. Many document the instal process in a read me file or have a forum thread supporting their own mods, it really isnt rocket science to follow. We (ED) even provided a better way to install user mods by using the saved games location ( rather than using DCS core ), so please keep the feedback constructive and remember our platform has a long history of modding.

 

@Evanjsmay

thank you for your post, while we would like to have something in DCS to better support community mods and the way they are delivered at this time it is not something we can do. 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, Evanjsmay said:

It would require the mod publisher to write a script. All the program would need to do is download the files, execute the script and then perform file validation. This results in the creator/publisher doing the work, not ED.

Judging on how many problems unofficial mods can create here, I think this game is different than others in this regard. Mod makers here don’t have access to the SDK nor the preview builds of the game like a closed tester would. 

[Evanjsmay]

@BIGNEWY 

Thanks for taking the time to read this post and reply, it is appreciated greatly.

[cfrag]

13 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

I also think you are being unkind to the community modders out there.

I don't think I am - in my mind's eye they all are heroes. The community does terrific, phenomenal work for everyone out of the kindness of their heart. I think that support for their efforts by the host can be increased, to make it easier for them to integrate with DCS. Example: allow mission designers to publish (and update) to your ED User Files from within Mission Editor. And allow Players to discover (and download) missions that are hosted on ED User Files from within DCS. ED already controls the entire stack, and this could make it even more attractive for community members to share their work. I may be a bit selfish here; keeping the 40(ish) missions that I've submitted to the community up to date, update their forum threads, then update the User Files description and then upload the files themselves can be a lot of work; so I slack, and missions can become stale (no longer run with the newest DCS version). I'm the last to claim that my missions are too good to miss, so probably that's no skin off anyone's nose but mine. I do think that there's room to grow when it comes to integrating community-supplied content with DCS itself.

17 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

There are many great community mods out there, but we can not use or test with them.

I think that is understood and universally accepted. Authors are responsible for their content. I would not expect ED to test against community-provided content nor that you would ever need to follow a third-party's content. Of course content follows DCS, not the other way around.

19 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

it really isnt rocket science to follow.

It definitely is not - many of us have a pilot's license and can follow procedure; but that wasn't my point. My point is the that I think sometimes it shouldn't be necessary. It may be something to revisit and see if these processes/procedures can be simplified from the point of a customer's view. To help make DCS (one of my favorite products) more accessible. I read the news of a new launcher as an great sign that ED is moving in that direction. There is great potential that I'd love to see realized to make DCS even more popular.

[Tank50us]

54 minutes ago, cfrag said:

It definitely is not - many of us have a pilot's license and can follow procedure; but that wasn't my point. My point is the that I think sometimes it shouldn't be necessary. It may be something to revisit and see if these processes/procedures can be simplified from the point of a customer's view. To help make DCS (one of my favorite products) more accessible. I read the news of a new launcher as an great sign that ED is moving in that direction. There is great potential that I'd love to see realized to make DCS even more popular.

I mean, I don't have a pilots license, just the virtual one for DCS Aircraft

That said, the main accessibility issue that I've seen is giving people instructions on just how to find where they're supposed to place the files they need to. And considering the first question I have to ask is: "Are you on Open Beta", the responses I've gotten from that question are actually quite interesting. I'm aware that ED is planning to merge Stable and Open Beta in the future, and I have no doubt that this will help, but the main issue is that not everyone has their "Saved Games" folder in the same spot, and that can make it even harder to help them navigate. Some just flat out give up before they even get to the next step.

And then there's the issue of compressed vs decompressed files. Some mods and liveries will work while still compressed... some won't. I think an in-launcher mod system, or a new compression method, will help with this. Something that only DCS can read, but to the end-user is just a single file. Such a system could also prevent tampering as without either a special tool (provided by ED) or a way to crack the file, there'd be no way for someone with ill intents to gain access to the file and install malware or something.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

That said, the main accessibility issue that I've seen is giving people instructions on just how to find where they're supposed to place the files they need to.

Again, not really “rocket science” just basic computer usage skills. If someone can’t figure out how use a PC they’ve got greater hurtles to overcome in life than playing video games. 

[cfrag]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

Again, not really “rocket science” just basic computer usage skills.

To me, it's a matter of necessity versus convenience. Some people like cars with gear shift, others prefer automatic transmissions. People who can drive gear shift can drive automatic without problems, but not the other way around. All things being equal, today I prefer automatic transmission (although I learned, and for decades drove, shift gear). Learning how to gear-shift isn't difficult. Driving it, though, is annoying to me today (when I was younger and brasher, I fancied myself a "manly" driver that would of course only drive shifted. I got over myself  ).

Methinks some of the accessibility in DCS is similar. They can be unnecessarily difficult, and if ED provided an "automatic transmission" for some of them, the experience would be so much more pleasant. That's all - the game won't run faster or better. It's just more accessible to those who haven't yet learned to "gear-shift".

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, cfrag said:

To me, it's a matter of necessity versus convenience. Some people like cars with gear shift, others prefer automatic transmissions. People who can drive gear shift can drive automatic without problems, but not the other way around. All things being equal, today I prefer automatic transmission (although I learned, and for decades drove, shift gear). Learning how to gear-shift isn't difficult. Driving it, though, is annoying to me today (when I was younger and brasher, I fancied myself a "manly" driver that would of course only drive shifted. I got over myself  ).

Methinks some of the accessibility in DCS is similar. They can be unnecessarily difficult, and if ED provided an "automatic transmission" for some of them, the experience would be so much more pleasant. That's all - the game won't run faster or better. It's just more accessible to those who haven't yet learned to "gear-shift".

In order to play a PC game it’s a good idea to know how to use a PC first. Knowing how to use a PC has other benefits in life considering most jobs will require you to have these skills. There’s no point in trying to make DCS accessible to the computer illiterate since the game will probably be too complicated for them anyways. 

[cfrag]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s no point in trying to make DCS accessible to the computer illiterate

Hmmm. My definition of an computer illiterate is anyone who can't write 6502 assembler nor knows the systemic difference between Centronics and RS232. Complete computer illiterates to me are those who need a GUI to get stuff done. My experience is that even though most people that I know fit that illiteracy description, they still manage to use one. Just because people set their priorities different does not mean that they aren't suited for an unrelated task. It's not required to know how a file system works (do you know the difference between NTFS and NFS?) in order to use it in a word processor. And people should not need computer skills to play a game. That's pretty much my point: Requiring off-topic knowledge to use a product is often a sign that something in the design process can be improved. Deducing that people are bad at one task because they aren't good at another, unrelated task is a non sequitur to me.

[Tank50us]

6 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Hmmm. My definition of an computer illiterate is anyone who can't write 6502 assembler nor knows the systemic difference between Centronics and RS232. Complete computer illiterates to me are those who need a GUI to get stuff done. My experience is that even though most people that I know fit that illiteracy description, they still manage to use one. Just because people set their priorities different does not mean that they aren't suited for an unrelated task. It's not required to know how a file system works (do you know the difference between NTFS and NFS?) in order to use it in a word processor. And people should not need computer skills to play a game. That's pretty much my point: Requiring off-topic knowledge to use a product is often a sign that something in the design process can be improved. Deducing that people are bad at one task because they aren't good at another, unrelated task is a non sequitur to me.

Exactly. Most people can turn their computer on without diffiulty, surf the web, write an email, etc. Fairly basic stuff. Installing a game is just a bit more complex than that, but Steam makes it pretty flippin' simple. However, if Steam required you to dive into the files to install something (say a free DLC), it would very quickly lose its simplicity, and people who aren't tech literate enough to know how to navigate those files would give up very quickly.

The same applies to DCS. The fact that unless you're dealing with a paid mission pack (the campaigns), you will have to manually install every file you need can be a massive turn-off to those who either can't understand it, or, just don't really have the time or patience to deal with it.

I mean, how many people in DCS right now just use auto-start/stop to get their plane going/shut-down purely because they just want to fly? They could learn the start-up procedure start to finish, and in some planes it is faster... but only after you've done it several dozen times. Not everyone has the patience to learn those procedures, especially when Win+Home is massively convenient

That last bit isn't meant to change the subject, it's meant to illustrate the differences in mindset.

[cfrag]

Just now, Tank50us said:

I mean, how many people in DCS right now just use auto-start/stop to get their plane going/shut-down purely because they just want to fly?

Or "hot from ground" - exactly. It's that level of thoughtful design (providing a 'hot' option for mission editor) that we can see in DCS that I'd also like to be applied to the rougher edges. DCS is phenomenal. I want it to be even more phenomenal.   

[SharpeXB]

18 minutes ago, cfrag said:

And people should not need computer skills to play a game.

We’re talking about following instructions like dropping a simple file into a simple folder. That’s all you need to do for user-created missions and liveries etc. It’s not rocket science. Navigating folders on your PC isn’t an advanced skill.