Bugged Mk-20 Rockeye ?

[Bacab]

Hello everyone,

I noticed that I had a very hard time dealing any kind of damage to even unarmoured targets using the Mk 20 Rockeye. So I did a test mission with ideal conditions and tried to destroy some trucks with the Mk 20, to no avail. Here are two of my attempts (see attached tracks). Graphically speaking it seems at least one truck should be destroyed in both case but no "hit" event is even logged by DCS.

Could someone have a look ? It seems a lot of cluster bombs are not working correctly currently but I failed to find a report specific to the Mk 20 so here it is. I apologise if this bug has been previously reported.

Thank you in advance.

 

Mk20_bug.trk Mk20_bug_2.trk

[Bog9y]

Yep, I have the exact same problem. Unless you hit the target nothing will happen. This is not how cluster munition works, it should cover an area and cause at least some damage. 

[Hobel]

Am 20.1.2024 um 20:17 schrieb Bacab:

Hello everyone,

I noticed that I had a very hard time dealing any kind of damage to even unarmoured targets using the Mk 20 Rockeye. So I did a test mission with ideal conditions and tried to destroy some trucks with the Mk 20, to no avail. Here are two of my attempts (see attached tracks). Graphically speaking it seems at least one truck should be destroyed in both case but no "hit" event is even logged by DCS.

Could someone have a look ? It seems a lot of cluster bombs are not working correctly currently but I failed to find a report specific to the Mk 20 so here it is. I apologise if this bug has been previously reported.

Thank you in advance.

 

Mk20_bug.trk 526.32 kB · 13 Downloads Mk20_bug_2.trk 479.04 kB · 15 Downloads

Similar issue with the Blu97, to achieve an effect the bomblet must hit directly.  The HE effect is sometimes close to 0 with light targets.    

 

Blu97 example

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by Hobel

[ruxtmp]

I believe fragmentation is not modeled so the tiny little explosives in cluster munitions only do damage if they actually hit the target. I have not used cluster munitions in years as they just dont behave as expected on soft targets. 4-6 Mk82s work well enough to get the job done with the right interval settings.

[Py]

All the non-smart cluster munitions are completely useless, JSOW-A is the same.

I try them out again after each patch but direct hits on even unarmoured targets do zero damage every time.

This REALLY needs to be fixed!

[Hobel]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Py:

All the non-smart cluster munitions are completely useless, JSOW-A is the same.

I try them out again after each patch but direct hits on even unarmoured targets do zero damage every time.

This REALLY needs to be fixed!

Negative, direct hits destroy light vehicles immediately, bmp2 etc need 1-2, that's fine.  But what often happens are no direct hits and since the aoe is not even or hardly able to damage a jeep, the problem lies there

[Py]

9 hours ago, Hobel said:

Negative, direct hits destroy light vehicles immediately, bmp2 etc need 1-2, that's fine.  But what often happens are no direct hits and since the aoe is not even or hardly able to damage a jeep, the problem lies there

Sorry what I mean by "direct hit" is the target is right in the middle of the spread pattern, there are explosions all around, but zero damage because DCS decides that none of the submunitions hit the target. You're correct that if one actually hits a light target it will kill it, but this seems to be be very rare and makes cluster munitions not practically useful at all.

[AndrewDCS2005]

There are two separate issues here.

1. Spread/dispersion pattern of cluster submunitions which depends on several factors

• number of submunitions (higher number -> higher density of impacts over the same area)
  • 247 pieces of Mk 118 Rockeye HEAT bomblets in Mk 20 Rockeye II
  • 145 pieces of BLU-97/B bomblets in AGM-154A JSOW
• submunition properties such as weight and drag (BLU-97 bomblet weights almost 3x more than Mk 118)
• altitude of burst
• wind
• terrain

It would be interesting to see the exact impact patterns in different conditions - videos from DCS often obscure this as the explosions don't allow to see where each individual bomblet impacts, and tacview tracks don't show each individual bomblet either. I wonder if someone in DCS community has a way to visualize this pattern.

 

2. Result of the hits directly or close to the target - which also depends on submunition type.

Mk 188 Rockeye is specifically armor-piercing, anti-tank weapon which pierces almost 20cm of armor but only on direct hit. Hits and explosions near the target do mostly nothing as there's no fragmentation.

BLU-97 on the other hand is combined effects bomblet, which has both anti-armor shaped-charge properties and fragmentation + incendiary effects, so it might do some damage to soft targets with hit near the target. Maybe DCS health bars on units will show that.

[rob10]

Something to keep in mind is that while DCS models each of the submunitions, it DOES NOT display ALL of them for performance reasons (on top of smoke obscuring the ones that are displayed).  So there will be more individual bomblets than you will visually see in game.  That might be part of the reason Tacview doesn't show them all either.

[WWSmith]

I can understand that the bomblets require a direct hit to inflict damage, which is presumably realistic given their small size. The trouble is that the hit probability is microscopic. Similar to the tracks above, I've repeatedly been able to produce a nice, tight circle of explosions blanketing a target without scoring any hits, even when dropping pairs. Right now I consider that the hit probability is so low that the Mk-20s are dead weight on my plane, and other cluster munitions aren't much better.

[PawlaczGMD]

The Russian cluster bombs are even worse, as their spread pattern is horrible. But these tiny bomblets should require a direct hit, so it might be correct.

An important question here: does DCS simulate every single bomblet? Or does it do some averaging that might produce no hits even with a good drop?

Currently, I consider non-smart clusters unreliable, and I would always drop at least 2 bombs.

[rob10]

8 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

An important question here: does DCS simulate every single bomblet? Or does it do some averaging that might produce no hits even with a good drop?

They have previously stated that each bomblet is modelled, but they do not display each bomblet/bomblet explosion for performance reasons.