B-17 Flying Fortress

[Tank50us]

With the release of "Masters of the Air", I got to thinking of what it would be like to be at the controls of the Mighty Flying Fortress.

Obviously, in DCS, this would be an immense undertaking. But if it were up to me to make it, I'd go with the following:

Version

I'd start with an Early B-17G, since those are the ones (along with the late Gs) still around. Eventually other models would be introduced, even going to the earliest model of the aircraft.

Control

The player would be in control of the Left Seat (Pilot in command), and would be able to switch to the Bombardier seat. The reason for this is because when on the final attack heading, control of the aircraft is handed over to the Bombardier.

Gunners

As you know, the B-17 has about 8 gunners, and while it would be nice to have each station controlled by a player, the reality is that just won't happen with the DCS player base. On top of that, a typical mission for the B-17s involved a minimum of 21 Forts, with a full crew that'd be over the 210 players just in Forts. To fix this, the gunners would be handled by an AI "Gun Director" that the PIC will have a commo control over. You can tell them to when to fire, and whether or not to focus their fire, and maybe even prioritize certain targets over others.

Another thing that would be present, would be an optional "Gunner Status" indicator that uses a series of heartbeat monitors to show their stress level, or if they're even alive. The more stress the gunners are under, the worse their accuracy, and the more ammo they waste.

The future

If done, the same tech that goes into the B-17 that can be pushed into other WW2 era bombers. Namely the B-24 and B-29.

 

What do you guys think?

[Silver_Dragon]

Making a bomber in "pieces" or "in fascicles" seems absurd to me. If ED makes a module, it should be done in its entirety, or not attempted. It's just giving rise to "the flight engineer DLC will come later."

ED, when you start building bomber modules, you will do so with a medium bomber, type Mosquito B Mk.IV, a Douglas A-20 or a Ju-88, and continue to raise on complexity to other bombers. Or a 3rd party appears with a bomber (has a team with a lancaster bomber). The problem is two, the size of the maps to make real missions, and the systems to simulate the bombers, such as visual bombing and all the bomb management capabilities in WW2 aircrafts (there are no visual bombing sights in DCS World).

[Tank50us]

32 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Making a bomber in "pieces" or "in fascicles" seems absurd to me. If ED makes a module, it should be done in its entirety, or not attempted. It's just giving rise to "the flight engineer DLC will come later."

ED, when you start building bomber modules, you will do so with a medium bomber, type Mosquito B Mk.IV, a Douglas A-20 or a Ju-88, and continue to raise on complexity to other bombers. Or a 3rd party appears with a bomber (has a team with a lancaster bomber). The problem is two, the size of the maps to make real missions, and the systems to simulate the bombers, such as visual bombing and all the bomb management capabilities in WW2 aircrafts (there are no visual bombing sights in DCS World).

I didn't say the only way to play would be jumping between the pilot and Bombardier. The other positions would be multi-crew open, but just like with the Tomcat or the upcoming F-4, plans have to be made for the fact that not everyone will want to be in those seats. I mean heck, it'd be nice to get 210 people together to do a fully simulated B-17 Mission... plus the escorts and interceptors... but I think DCS server software caps out at 64 people XD

[Silver_Dragon]

The number of clients on servers has been growing over time, and I don't think there will be problems with building modules with 4-12 crew members in the future, although many are gunners or battles with hundreds of players with bombers and fighters as escorts / interceptors. The AI could replace many and do something like Petrovich, as a gunner or as a crew member of a bomber, you have already partly done. It's something that sooner or later ED will have to address for WW2, since with the dynamic campaign, you will have to simulate something similar to bombing waves on WW2 / cold war.

[Dragon1-1]

First, let's finalize the Mossie's AI navigator, the Herc's four engines, the helo AI door gunners, and a Petrovich-style AI copilot. Once that is complete, we can start thinking about the B-17.

That said, I'm pretty sure the Herc will be a big help here. It has a flight engineer, a CSO (a sort-of navigator/bombardier hybrid responsible for both navigation and mission systems), two pilots and a loadmaster. If all those roles are properly represented as AIs, then it will be possible to use those systems for large WWII bombers, too.

[Evoman]

8 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Making a bomber in "pieces" or "in fascicles" seems absurd to me. If ED makes a module, it should be done in its entirety, or not attempted. It's just giving rise to "the flight engineer DLC will come later."

ED, when you start building bomber modules, you will do so with a medium bomber, type Mosquito B Mk.IV, a Douglas A-20 or a Ju-88, and continue to raise on complexity to other bombers. Or a 3rd party appears with a bomber (has a team with a lancaster bomber). The problem is two, the size of the maps to make real missions, and the systems to simulate the bombers, such as visual bombing and all the bomb management capabilities in WW2 aircrafts (there are no visual bombing sights in DCS World).

I agree that it would be more ideal to start with a medium bomber first, that will eventually evolve to large bombers.

In my opinion the B-25 would be an ideal candidate to expand into multi crew medium bombers.

 

 

[Silver_Dragon]

7 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

First, let's finalize the Mossie's AI navigator, the Herc's four engines, the helo AI door gunners, and a Petrovich-style AI copilot. Once that is complete, we can start thinking about the B-17.

That said, I'm pretty sure the Herc will be a big help here. It has a flight engineer, a CSO (a sort-of navigator/bombardier hybrid responsible for both navigation and mission systems), two pilots and a loadmaster. If all those roles are properly represented as AIs, then it will be possible to use those systems for large WWII bombers, too.

Mossie AI Navigator, and Petrovich AI copilot, and helo AI gunners (working on UH-1H / Mi-8 / Mi-24) has builded by AI specialist, and has none to do with build a new module. On fact WW2 team will move to work on a new module after F6F Hellcat without problem. The "roles" need implemented on a "bomber" module, if you like turn them as a FF Hardcore module.

By now "Lancaster" team, has no a aproval 3rd party by ED, only a dedicated team without access to the SDK intent simulate a great bomber. Hercules C-130J-30/MC-130J/KC-130J has building by Airplane Simulator Company 3rd party, and make a CSO / Loadmasters AI has planned by the 3rd Party.

Edited February 4, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[Silver_Dragon]

Add missing bombs and others equipment to the B-17F, actualy the WW2 bombers (B-17G, A-20G) has only capable to carry AN-M64 500 lb bomb without the WW2 Fuze implementation. Other point has add the correct bomb layout on the B-17G bomb bay and the external hardpoints.

List of WW2 bombs missing on B-17G, from operation manuals (some of them has 3D models on DCS World diretories).

• 100 lbs AN-M30 bomb (on DCS Shape directory)
• 100 lbs AN-M39 bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 100 lbs MK / 1-MKI / IMI / -MK- / IMII bomb (no 3D model yet)
• 100 lbs AN-M38A2 bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 300 lbs AN-M31 bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 300 lbs MK / 1-MK / IMI bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 600 lbs AN-M32 bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 600 lbs MK / 1-MK / IMI bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 1000 lbs AN-M65 bomb (on DCS Shape directory)
• 1100 lbs Mk 111 bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 1100 lbs AN-M33 bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 1600 lbs AN-MK1 bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 2000 lb AN-M34 bomb (No 3D model yet)
• 4000 lb AN-M66 bomb (on DCS Shape directory)

Others WW2 bombs on DCS directory, only added to P-47/-51/others aircrafts:

• 250 lb AN-M57 bombs
• British bombs from Mosquito FB MK. VI?

Others WW2 bombs or equipment none implemented on B-17

• 2000 lb GB-1 Glide bomb

• 4500 lb Concrete Piercing/Rocket Assisted bomb "Dysney Bomb"

• Auxiliar Bomb bay 410 gal fuel tanks

Others WW2 bombs none implemented (no on B-17, only on B-29)

• AN-M69 Incendiary bomb (on DCS Shape directory / waiting fire damage / effects)

Edited March 14, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[Rick50]

 

I don't see a technical reason why this wouldn't be doable, though I'm not in the industry.

However, I suspect that the biggest hurdle might be getting IP permission from Boeing, who may still be the rights holder. But maybe the rights are held by the Pentagon / USAF maybe? Have no idea about that.

I think it's a great idea, much better chance of becoming a module for sale, than say some other heavy bombers like the BUFF, Bone, Spirit, Backfire and whatnot. Even the Super Fort is not as sure as the Flying Fort!

I'm sure it's been proposed many times, but it's a great idea that merits serious consideration! I'm pretty sure that ED would love to tackle this one, if they have time when the time is right!

I also think the same about a potential Lancaster module... though the night flying might not have as much appeal to some players? I am curious about how many Mosquito DCS flyers do so in the dark?

[Silver_Dragon]

13 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

I don't see a technical reason why this wouldn't be doable, though I'm not in the industry.

I think it's a great idea, much better chance of becoming a module for sale, than say some other heavy bombers like the BUFF, Bone, Spirit, Backfire and whatnot. Even the Super Fort is not as sure as the Flying Fort!

I dont see a problem, to build a B-17 module (other games was use the B-17 name), manuals has free and many data has available, the problem will be the complexity of simulate a old ww2 long range Bomber with all your systems and funtionality realistic simulated.

A team, intent in the past build a Backfire.... and get a "Cease and Desist" from the east.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Silver_Dragon

[Mikla]

It is a bit humorous that I flew a Bomber in the late 80s in a game called Air Warrior by Kelton Flynn and Kesmai, where the bombers were human crewed, and we fought against or alongside 100 other players.  The adrenaline flowed like crazy, and we planned missions for hours.  Now, everyone wants the glitter, which sacrifices human interaction and player numbers.  Having a human-crewed bomber that was part of a 100-plane mission with other human-crewed bombers and fighter escorts would be awesome...IMHO.

[Slippa]

I reckon go with the Mitchell and give the Lancaster team access to the tools they need. Then build the B-17 etc.