need track replay Why are modern missiles like the AIM-9X less accurate than old missiles like the K-13?

[Flogger23m]

It has been this way for a few years. An AIM-9X is easily spoofed by an AI plane flying in a straight line that drops one or two flares. Yet evasive maneuvers and lots of flares can seldom defeat the AI's K-13 and similar missiles from the 1960-70s. This is something that has been quite annoying for a while. Using an AIM-9X with a helmet mounted sighting system has a low accuracy even against AI planes that don't use flares. The AIM-9M on the F-15C is almost useless against anything that isn't flying perfectly straight and doesn't drop any flares.

Is there some type of artificial difficult/AI cheating setting that needs to be disabled, or is the missile design just this poorly implemented, or does the AI use some type of magical cheats by design?

I think we've been waiting a decade for them to fix the BMP-2s that are more accurate than dedicated anti aircraft guns that can shoot maneuvering F-15s and Flankers out of the sky. A quick Youtube search will show you how inaccurate and high the dispersion on the BMP-2's 30mm are against other vehicles. But that is another topic entirely.

But a bit disappointed that we can't even use semi realistic dog fighting missiles. Especially when a single plane costs more than a multi million dollar AAA game. Quite embarrassing.

Edited March 19 by Flogger23m

[BIGNEWY]

3 minutes ago, Flogger23m said:

It has been this way for a few years. An AIM-9X is easily spoofed by an AI plane flying in a straight line that drops one or two flares. Yet evasive maneuvers and lots of flares can seldom defeat the AI's K-13 and similar missiles from the 1960-70s. This is something that has been quite annoying for a while. Using an AIM-9X with a helmet mounted sighting system has a low accuracy even against AI planes that don't use flares. The AIM-9M on the F-15C is almost useless against anything that isn't flying perfectly straight and doesn't drop any flares.

Is there some type of artificial difficult/AI cheating setting that needs to be disabled, or is the missile design just this poorly implemented, or does the AI use some type of magical cheats by design?

I think we've been waiting a decade for them to fix the BMP-2s that are more accurate than dedicated anti aircraft guns that can shoot maneuvering F-15s and Flankers out of the sky. A quick Youtube search will show you how inaccurate and high the dispersion on the BMP-2's 30mm are against other vehicles. But that is another topic entirely.

But a bit disappointed that we can't even use semi realistic dog fighting missiles. Especially when a single plane costs more than a multi million dollar AAA game. Quite embarrassing.

 

Sorry but your assumption is wrong, but if you want to report a bug or what you think maybe a bug attach a short track replay showing an example of the issue and we will happily take a look at it. 

[Flogger23m]

Just now, BIGNEWY said:

Sorry but your assumption is wrong, but if you want to report a bug or what you think maybe a bug attach a short track replay showing an example of the issue and we will happily take a look at it. 

 

You can load up DCS and fly a mission quickly to test, just like we have been doing for almost a decade since the issues started propping up. Especially with the BMP-2/IFV accuracy.

[BIGNEWY]

14 minutes ago, Flogger23m said:

 

You can load up DCS and fly a mission quickly to test, just like we have been doing for almost a decade since the issues started propping up. Especially with the BMP-2/IFV accuracy.

I understand you may be frustrated, but I am referring to the initial comment about AIM-9 and the subject of the thread title, if you think something is wrong create a bug report for it with a track and any evidence you have. 

Unit accuracy is controlled by the AI level in the mission, again if you want to report an issue or highlight it create a report with a track replay example so we can take a look.

As this seems to be a wish list thread I will move it there, please keep it constructive going forward. 

[draconus]

4 hours ago, Flogger23m said:

But a bit disappointed that we can't even use semi realistic dog fighting missiles.

I suspect wrong launch parameters and ACM skill issue. As soon as the missile leave the rail it goes by the same rules as the one launched from AI.

[Exorcet]

It might be a flare issue. I've had the thought pop up in my head that something is wrong with counter measure performance before, specifically for IR missiles. To really confirm it some testing would be needed.

Another issue that might be a factor is that the AI will tend to see a missile launch from a wide range of angles, react to it instantly, and be ready to dump a lot of flares always.

I've resorted to avoiding using AIM-9's unless the flight time is very short because they seem so likely to fly toward flares. It can't rule out that it's selective memory since I haven't recorded the success rate, but my experience deviates from what I would expect enough to make me suspicious.

[Exorcet]

Very casual testing but:

-AIM-9X appears to have high flare resistance when used by the AI. It was better than R-73 against straight and level player F-16. Flare used on reaction.

-AI flare effectiveness may be better than player. AI was able to spoof the 9X multiple times in a row. This never happened when the AI fired on a player aircraft. AI uses preemptive flares sometimes.

But I need to go back and make my testing more consistent since I was flying straight and level in mil power for the AI. The AI I was shooting at was maneuvering. I'll also note that the current state of AI has it deploy a large amount of flares rapidly unlike the very slow use of flares that it used to use. I wonder if this high amount of flares is the issue. Using a large number of flares is fine, but the AI might be using them more rapidly than their planes should be able to. In the F-16 for instance I can't match the rate of flare use that I typically see by the AI.

[Tippis]

On 3/19/2024 at 9:41 PM, Exorcet said:

I wonder if this high amount of flares is the issue. Using a large number of flares is fine, but the AI might be using them more rapidly than their planes should be able to. In the F-16 for instance I can't match the rate of flare use that I typically see by the AI.

I don't remember seeing it changed at any point, but the conventional wisdom and interpretation of the stats is that it's basically a die roll for each countermeasure activation, with different missiles having different sensitivity factors being applied to that die roll. Hence the issues a while back with “pulsing” ECM, for instance.

For the most part, that whole “different sensitivity” is by such small margins that it requires a lot of controlled shots to notice any difference, whereas what really makes a difference — as you hint it — is just volume. It doesn't matter much if a missile is twice as good at ignoring countermeasures if it faces 20 die rolls compared to a missile that is half as good but only faces one or two countermeasure launches. Even with the former being more resistant, it's facing an almost 100% chance of failure simply because of how many opportunities it has to fail, whereas the latter may only yield a 50% failure rate after all is said and done.

An AI that dumps everything it has will thus be impervious to even the most advanced missile, whereas a player who runs some lazy-pace release program or who manually taps away one or two at a time can sill quite easily be hit.