reported Difficulty upgrading Track Targets to System Targets

[Delta134]

Thanks, hopefully at some point the issue will be addressed by ED. From what I can see from the previous reports you linked, ED never affirmed the issue.

Hopefully in my post I have demonstrated the problem a bit more clearly and shown that:

1. Current implementation doesn't match how it is described in the manual.
2. Current implementation is inconsistent within the game across enemy and friendly contacts.
3. Current implementation prevents the pilot from effectively operating the FCR and contradicts how one would logically expect the system to function.

I would also like to add that during missions I have observed more inconsistencies in the way datalink tracks are displayed: PPLI track displayed on own position on HSD, team members not showing up as such on HSD (instead they're displayed as donor) despite proper setup in the mission editor/DLINK pages, friendly contacts not being displayed at all or at irregular intervals. I just have not been able to reproduce these issues on a short track yet. Perhaps at a later time. But it goes to show that some work is required.

Edited July 10, 2024 by _Delta13_

[slans]

This post was merged (I'd argue incorrectly but it affects me none).
Original title "FCR Symbology: Datalink Correlated Targets are Incorrectly Displayed as Track Targets Regardless of State".

I can reproduce this with certainty.

When datalink information is set to display on TWS FCR (toggleable by 'Transmit Switch - IFF OUT') contacts will be displayed as large filled boxes, as to indicate a track target, regardless of the actual state of the track. That is to say; search, track, system and bugged targets all appear as track targets when correlated by an AWACS via datalink.

• Screenshots 1 & 2 were taken within a couple of seconds of one another. Screenshot 1 shows a search target in the centre and a track target to the right. I then pressed 'Transmit Switch - IFF OUT' and took screenshot 2, which appears to show both of the targets from screenshot 1 as track targets.
• Screenshots 3 & 4 were taken within a couple of seconds of one another. Screenshot 3 shows the two targets after they had both become track targets, and I 'TMS Right' multiple times to promote them to system tracks, then set the further one as the bugged target. As before, I then pressed 'Transmit Switch - IFF OUT' and took screenshot 2, which appears to show both of the targets from screenshot 1 as track targets. The bugged target does have the ring around it though, as expected.

Is this symbology correct? I find it hard to believe that it is, given that it makes the process of firing upon targets correlated by datalink in TWS largely dependent on guesswork, without turning the FCR datalink information off.

I've attached the mission I set up for the purpose of creating this report too, in case that stands to be of use.

Screenshots 1 & 2:

Screenshots 3 & 4:

 

dcs.log FCR Test Mission.miz

 

Edited July 16, 2024 by slans
Post was merged; title preserved in text body.

[Moonshine]

 

[Nedum]

The symbology is right now completely off.

And if this the only new one on top of all the old bugs, we should be happy. But after a short testing, it's not the only new one.

With this patch, the Symbology is more off than ever before.

I am getting right now the old "Can only bug one system track (and now every time)" plus " the first track, with Datalink on, is always a white track, until the track is less than 10 miles away." So, in the end, one bug on top of the old one. But only for the Datalink Symbology. I can see this behavior in all Quick Action Missions. No Mods or whatever activated.

I don't know how long we have to wait for a Fix, but this bug is several months old. And I fear all those bugs will not be fixed until the sniper pod is ready. And there are so many of them, soooooo many, and with each patch we get some more. I think the only weapon without a bug is the gun, but I am not 100% sure.

 

[Moonshine]

yeah the way the symbology is makes TWS really unuseable unless you disable all link symbology on the FCR

dont know why ED fails to see this..

[AndrewDCS2005]

Same issue with the track attached and a bit more discussion here 

 

[slans]

6 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

I was aware of this thread before posting but was a little disappointed to see that there has been no meaningful acknowledgement. I'm hoping that by describing the issue in it's most clear and basic terms that something can be better communicated; It pains me to see reports such as the one linked be confused by complaints about similar but disconnected issues.

There is one reply in the thread that does however describe the issues in a similar manner to my own, and I do believe this to be the most fundamental mistake in the symbology of the FCR. Better yet, it's entirely visual and reproducible so I hope a fix would be easy provided that other issues don't become weaved together with it.

For the record @Nedum I've never knowingly experienced any of the other issues you've described, but it's entirely possible that when they occur I've not noticed courtesy of the issue described in the original post.

[Moonshine]

its a bit misleading that its title is related to TWS. in the end the subject is about the whole symbology / colors and the effect of it can be seen in modes like TWS where it leads to issues due to the facts it is impossible to tell what stage of the "promotion ladder" the contact really is (system or tracked target). you really only notice you went too far if you suddenly have it bugged.

Edited July 15, 2024 by Moonshine

[Delta134]

This symbology is correct according to the manual. To me it also seems logical the way it is implemented. Datalink targets will always have a large box for an unknown or suspect contact (regardless of the TWS track). It becomes filled in once the contact is correlated with onboard sensors. Indeed it is correct that to properly display the TWS track or system target is to filter out the datalink symbology. That's why the HOTAS command is there, so you can quickly and easily request your required/preferred symbology. 

So you need to view the FCR symbology and datalink symbology as separate from each other. It becomes clear if you read it the way it is described in the manual.

Edited July 15, 2024 by _Delta13_

[Moonshine]

the ED manual or an actual one? because neither manual at this very moment describes what we currently see in the aircraft. its not only about filling the contact, its also about coloring it correctly. one does not just suddenly lose every ROE classification upon painting things with a radar. but currently we do. if the ROE tree programmed in the jet does not correlate with the one from link, one would see the symbology mipple. which we do not see either

Edited July 15, 2024 by Moonshine

[Delta134]

Yeah there's a separate thread for the ROE classification. ED affirmed that is needs some work but for it is modeled as intended.

The issue in this thread is about distinguishing between the various states of targets in TWS as far as I understand.

What the TWS sub-mode symbology means can be read on page 241 of the ED F-16 manual. What the datalink symbology means can be read on page 264 of the ED F-16 manual (which section also goes into the radar filtering)

[slans]

3 hours ago, _Delta13_ said:

This symbology is correct according to the manual. To me it also seems logical the way it is implemented. Datalink targets will always have a large box for an unknown or suspect contact (regardless of the TWS track). It becomes filled in once the contact is correlated with onboard sensors. Indeed it is correct that to properly display the TWS track or system target is to filter out the datalink symbology. That's why the HOTAS command is there, so you can quickly and easily request your required/preferred symbology. 

So you need to view the FCR symbology and datalink symbology as separate from each other. It becomes clear if you read it the way it is described in the manual.

 

This feels to me, an unfortunately valid response to my OP. I myself don't care to try classifying the correctness of it all, but as is this is probably best to just accept as truth until ED respond with something concrete regarding the symbology.

Spoiler

As a sidenote, merging threads because they're similar, while not being the about the same issue, seems like a good way to lose track of what's actually been reported.

Edited July 16, 2024 by slans

[Nedum]

22 hours ago, _Delta13_ said:

Yeah there's a separate thread for the ROE classification. ED affirmed that is needs some work but for it is modeled as intended.

The issue in this thread is about distinguishing between the various states of targets in TWS as far as I understand.

What the TWS sub-mode symbology means can be read on page 241 of the ED F-16 manual. What the datalink symbology means can be read on page 264 of the ED F-16 manual (which section also goes into the radar filtering)

I think we both have different documentations about that behavior?

Please show me in what situation I can get a yellow hollowed square like in all me known documentation for the DCS F16 C in game? Till today, I wasn't able to see that kind of symbolic. No matter what kind of IFF status I was using.

What I can see right now are green fulfilled circles in a big white Box in the FCR Screen. In what section of the document we can read about that behavior?

Really, I want to know what happen on the Screens, and why this happens. But if I read the documentation, I can't find any kind of that behavior and even so not one word about why the symbolic is so, like shown in DCS.

Why is in the TWS expand view of 2 tracks with the Datalink on, one target a yellow fulfilled square and one a white on? And why can I only make the white one to a system target and bug it (all in TWS)? Where is the documentation for this behavior?

But as I said before, please show me, how I manage to get a hollowed yellow square, in game within TWS mode and Datalink on, like shown in the DCS F16 documentation!

No matter what I have tried (and I've tried a lot), I was never able to manage to get a yellow hollowed square (system target). Right now, I am u n a b l e to see if I have made the tracked targets during TWS scans to systems targets, like in the actual DCS F16 Datalink Symbolic documentation. 

I have shown in a track (and that's why I have to mix things up), that because of the TWS Track Bug and the not working symbology, most people can't even notice that the bug is there, because there is no symbolic for a System Track during a Datalink connection. What we can do, is to play this the IFF symbolic (which was broken, I don't now if that is fixed), and disable parts of the Datalink symbolic. But that leads to the old Problem. Where the hexx is the hollowed yellow Datalink square during a TWS scan gone?

What is the reason for we can see a system track?

It's because with that symbol we can see that TWS has a special eye on its track, and we know, we can make all of those tracks to bugged Tracks with only one click.

So please explain, why is that not necessary for a TWS scan with an active Datalink? With an active Datalink we have to guess which track is a system track?

Why? 

If you can, P l e a s e show me how I can get the yellow hollowed square during a TWS scan and  Datalink on.

I ask that since month and nobody could answer me this simple question.

 

Edited July 16, 2024 by Nedum

[Delta134]

59 minutes ago, Nedum said:

I think we both have different documentations about that behavior?

Please show me in what situation I can get a yellow hollowed square like in all me known documentation for the DCS F16 C in game? Till today, I wasn't able to see that kind of symbolic. No matter what kind of IFF status I was using.

What I can see right now are green fulfilled circles in a big white Box in the FCR Screen. In what section of the document we can read about that behavior?

Really, I want to know what happen on the Screens, and why this happens. But if I read the documentation, I can't find any kind of that behavior and even so not one word about why the symbolic is so, like shown in DCS.

Why is in the TWS expand view of 2 tracks with the Datalink on, one target a yellow fulfilled square and one a white on? And why can I only make the white one to a system target and bug it (all in TWS)? Where is the documentation for this behavior?

But as I said before, please show me, how I manage to get a hollowed yellow square, in game within TWS mode and Datalink on, like shown in the DCS F16 documentation!

No matter what I have tried (and I've tried a lot), I was never able to manage to get a yellow hollowed square (system target). Right now, I am u n a b l e to see if I have made the tracked targets during TWS scans to systems targets, like in the actual DCS F16 Datalink Symbolic documentation. 

I have shown in a track (and that's why I have to mix things up), that because of the TWS Track Bug and the not working symbology, most people can't even notice that the bug is there, because there is no symbolic for a System Track during a Datalink connection. What we can do, is to play this the IFF symbolic (which was broken, I don't now if that is fixed), and disable parts of the Datalink symbolic. But that leads to the old Problem. Where the hexx is the hollowed yellow Datalink square during a TWS scan gone?

What is the reason for we can see a system track?

It's because with that symbol we can see that TWS has a special eye on its track, and we know, we can make all of those tracks to bugged Tracks with only one click.

So please explain, why is that not necessary for a TWS scan with an active Datalink? With an active Datalink we have to guess which track is a system track?

Why? 

If you can, P l e a s e show me how I can get the yellow hollowed square during a TWS scan and  Datalink on.

I ask that since month and nobody could answer me this simple question.

 

 

To give you a quick answer to your question: In order to visually confirm through symbology if you have upgraded a target from 'Track Target' to 'System Target' you need to filter out any datalink symbology (page 267 of the manual). If you don't, any datalink symbology will override your radar symbology. 

This is regardless of any color. Color only denotes target classification (hostile, unknown, suspect, friendly). It has no impact on the state of your TWS target.

1. TWS small brick: search target
2. TWS large filled in brick: track target
3. TWS large hollow brick: system target
4. TWS large hollow brick with circle: bugged target

As I stated before, you need to mentally separate radar symbology and datalink symbology. They are different things.

So to reiterate: To properly display your TWS radar symbology, filter out any datalink symbology!

[Nedum]

18 hours ago, _Delta13_ said:

To give you a quick answer to your question: In order to visually confirm through symbology if you have upgraded a target from 'Track Target' to 'System Target' you need to filter out any datalink symbology (page 267 of the manual). If you don't, any datalink symbology will override your radar symbology. 

This is regardless of any color. Color only denotes target classification (hostile, unknown, suspect, friendly). It has no impact on the state of your TWS target.

1. TWS small brick: search target
2. TWS large filled in brick: track target
3. TWS large hollow brick: system target
4. TWS large hollow brick with circle: bugged target

As I stated before, you need to mentally separate radar symbology and datalink symbology. They are different things.

So to reiterate: To properly display your TWS radar symbology, filter out any datalink symbology!

 

P L E A S E watch that video below (it's not mine). You really try to tell that's how the Datalink should work? Ok?

Again, S h o w me how I manage to see a hollowed out yellow square (picture below, DCS F16 C documentation).

To me, it doesn't make any sense to filter all Datalink data to get a proper symbology back, so I have a better overview of my tracks, as with the Datalink data itself. That's extra workload. Any designer who would build such stupid "helper" should be sent into prison.

What you describe is a workaround and not how it should work, if I can thrust any documentation and logic.

If the Datalink really works like in DCS right now, the designers of this system have built a kind of "smart" helper that reduces the pilot workload by adding extra workload because he has to switch the Symbology every few seconds, to get a "better" overview? Really, I don't have enough fantasy for that kind of "logic". That kind of helper sounds sick to me.

I hardly doubt that the DCS Datalink Symbology and how it works, is that what a RL F16 would see.                                                                              

I can say what I am doing right now. I disable the Datalink completely to get a much better situational overview during an attack. TWS without Datalink and doing quick IFF scans alone gives me a much better and quicker overview as that what we get with the Datalink on. And on top, without the Datalink I can see what is a track, system or a bugged target. And I can make all my TWS tracks to system tracks with a single button move. With Datalink enabled, that isn't possible right now. Right now, Datalink enabled means no full TWS functionality and less situational overview during a fight.  

The DCS Datalink isn't really able to show me who is friend or foe. The DCS Datalink can show me if and what target my flight is engaging. Besides that, it's only fooling me with dump or false information.  What a great helper, especially during an intense fight...... not!

 

[Delta134]

2 hours ago, Nedum said:

 

P L E A S E watch that video below (it's not mine). You really try to tell that's how the Datalink should work? Ok?

Again, S h o w me how I manage to see a hollowed out yellow square (picture below, DCS F16 C documentation).

To me, it doesn't make any sense to filter all Datalink data to get a proper symbology back, so I have a better overview of my tracks, as with the Datalink data itself. That's extra workload. Any designer who would build such stupid "helper" should be sent into prison.

What you describe is a workaround and not how it should work, if I can thrust any documentation and logic.

If the Datalink really works like in DCS right now, the designers of this system have built a kind of "smart" helper that reduces the pilot workload by adding extra workload because he has to switch the Symbology every few seconds, to get a "better" overview? Really, I don't have enough fantasy for that kind of "logic". That kind of helper sounds sick to me.

I hardly doubt that the DCS Datalink Symbology and how it works, is that what a RL F16 would see.                                                                              

I can say what I am doing right now. I disable the Datalink completely to get a much better situational overview during an attack. TWS without Datalink and doing quick IFF scans alone gives me a much better and quicker overview as that what we get with the Datalink on. And on top, without the Datalink I can see what is a track, system or a bugged target. And I can make all my TWS tracks to system tracks with a single button move. With Datalink enabled, that isn't possible right now. Right now, Datalink enabled means no full TWS functionality and less situational overview during a fight.  

The DCS Datalink isn't really able to show me who is friend or foe. The DCS Datalink can show me if and what target my flight is engaging. Besides that, it's only fooling me with dump or false information.  What a great helper, especially during an intense fight...... not!

 

What I am saying is that current implementation is correct according to ED's manual and does not prevent you from properly utilizing TWS mode once you filter out datalink symbology. Indeed, this means you might want to toggle them on or off every couple of seconds. That's why there's a control for it on the HOTAS in order to easily use it. So that it really isn't a big deal. Why do you think this is a workaround? Where in the manual does it say you can deduce your TWS target state from datalink symbology? I can tell you it doesn't.

I think you are frustrated by the 'inconvenience' of having to toggle symbology. You think it should be easier. I don't think it has to be easier and current implementation is correct according to ED's manual. If you have any documentation confirming this isn't correct, I suggest you send this to ED privately.

Your question regarding the hollow yellow brick doesn't really make sense. Are you trying to force that to come up? If so, why? A scenario in which this symbol would show up on your FCR is when an AWACS or other fighter provides you with the track and the DCS ROE decides it is a 'suspect' and the contact is not correlated with onboard sensors. As far as I understand, DCS currently doesn't do this. It only gives you hostile or friendly tracks. However, this ROE implementation is a separate issue from the one pertaining to radar symbology. One of the ED community managers has already confirmed it needs work but is correct as is for now.

[Nedum]

On 7/17/2024 at 10:27 PM, _Delta13_ said:

What I am saying is that current implementation is correct according to ED's manual and does not prevent you from properly utilizing TWS mode once you filter out datalink symbology. Indeed, this means you might want to toggle them on or off every couple of seconds. That's why there's a control for it on the HOTAS in order to easily use it. So that it really isn't a big deal. Why do you think this is a workaround? Where in the manual does it say you can deduce your TWS target state from datalink symbology? I can tell you it doesn't.

I think you are frustrated by the 'inconvenience' of having to toggle symbology. You think it should be easier. I don't think it has to be easier and current implementation is correct according to ED's manual. If you have any documentation confirming this isn't correct, I suggest you send this to ED privately.

Your question regarding the hollow yellow brick doesn't really make sense. Are you trying to force that to come up? If so, why? A scenario in which this symbol would show up on your FCR is when an AWACS or other fighter provides you with the track and the DCS ROE decides it is a 'suspect' and the contact is not correlated with onboard sensors. As far as I understand, DCS currently doesn't do this. It only gives you hostile or friendly tracks. However, this ROE implementation is a separate issue from the one pertaining to radar symbology. One of the ED community managers has already confirmed it needs work but is correct as is for now.

Honestly, are you kidding me? What's all this posturing as if I don't know what I'm talking about?
I've asked you several times now to show me exactly what I need to do to get all the symbols displayed as shown in the DCS F16 documentation. Specifically the hollowed out yellow square, and all you can come up with is claiming it works exactly as described in the documentation in the game. Then I show you a video that shows exactly how it doesn't, and you claim the same nonsense again.
If you're so sure that everything fits, then show me how I can get the yellow hollowed-out square to be displayed.

If you can't do that, stop claiming things that are proven to be false!

Edit to make it better visible (the colors a white and yellow in this picture):

So gain. Explain how I can manage to see those symbols.

That's from the original F16 C document. And that's exactly what would make sense. In this picture you can see that suspected targets are marked as system target, and now the Pilot is able to see all the systems targets with Datalink enabled.

Right now, this is impossible to get, and on top of that you are unable to make all tracks in your TWS scan to system targets, to see it, and to make them to bugged ones.

So, NO, the Datalink Symbology isn't working as shown in the F16 C documentation. And this bug is still here for more than 8 Month.

 

Edited July 21, 2024 by Nedum

[Hobel]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb Stroke 3:

I agree, this image was taken from the M3 manual and it clearly shows that the current implementation is wrong. 

 

DTC is more or less related to this implementation, so we have to wait for more.

 

Even though I would like it to work like it did 3 years ago until the dtc is there.