not planned Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic refueling options.

[freehand]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

36/64 against. Not even close. 
 

 

I was stretching the truth like most of the thread regarding what is needed in DCS  

[Exorcet]

8 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

Helpers don't help if the person being helped only wants someone else to do the work!

It actually turns out that they can. If the assist did exist and people used to refuel in missions, it could help get them accustomed to the idea of doing it manually.

One real life analogue, training wheels, are intended to help the user work up to the point where the training aid is removed. Even if the user at first never considers moving up the ladder, they can change their mind later.

Some people may never move up, but that's also fine. If it doesn't impact you, who care?

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

36/64 against. Not even close. 
 

See above. 64% think it’s not worthwhile. 

No where does the poll say against.

33% support is a sizeable amount of the playerbase, so that poll seems like a good indicator that it would be a popular addition in a sim where not everyone is going to be interested in every feature.

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

No where does the poll say against.

“No” means against. 

16 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

33% support is a sizeable amount of the playerbase, so that poll seems like a good indicator that it would be a popular addition in a sim where not everyone is going to be interested in every feature.

33% is the minority. This is virtual air combat gentlemen, there are no points for second place

[Tippis]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

“No” means against. 

Nope.

“No” means “no”. The question is “how many of you want it badly.” All other interpretations are your own inventions and have zero basis in reality.

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

33% is the minority.

Irrelevant. 36% is enough to make it a viable option to develop — enough people will use it. And remember, it's 36% who want it badly. Among the 64% who don't want it badly, you're quite likely to find those who only want it a little. Those who don't know but who'd probably end up enjoying the benefits, directly or indirectly. Those who don't care one way or another. And maybe even a very tiny and insignificant fraction who are actually against improving the game. But they don't matter if the number of people in favour is large enough. And at 36%, it certainly is.

  

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This is virtual air combat gentlemen, there are no points for second place

Incorrect. This is a poll to gauge interest in a feature. Second place, especially with such a huge number of supporters, means everyone wins. Well, except for those who are dead set against is, but they're irrelevant anyway.

Or, if you like, how about we remove the Hornet from the game. I'm pretty sure that only a minority have it so therefore, since there are no points for second place, it's a waste of the developers' time. Right?

Edited April 10, 2024 by Tippis

[Exorcet]

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

“No” means against.

Nowhere in the poll does it say against.

 

11 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

33% is the minority. This is virtual air combat gentlemen, there are no points for second place

I await your post requesting the cancellation of multiplayer

 

[freehand]

8 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Nowhere in the poll does it say against.

 

I await your post requesting the cancellation of multiplayer

 

He is not asking for cancelation of anything stop grasping at straws please.

[Tippis]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Maybe your English comprehension needs work. 

Please highlight in these images where it says “against”:

 

6 minutes ago, freehand said:

He is not asking for cancelation of anything stop grasping at straws please.

The point is, he's arguing that 36% of people being strongly in favour of a feature means that it shouldn't be in the game.

In another post, he's posting a claim that a mere 10% use MP.

Combine the two and his stance on spending any dev resources on MP going forward should be clear. He's not asking for it, no. But he should.

Edited April 10, 2024 by Tippis

[Exorcet]

10 minutes ago, freehand said:

He is not asking for cancelation of anything stop grasping at straws please.

If 33% is not enough to warrant support of a feature, then what does that say about something that supposedly only has 10% support?

From Sharpe's logic, AAR assist has around 3 times the support of MP and should take higher priority than it. If an AAR assist isn't worth developer effort, presumably MP is even an even bigger waste of resources. On the other hand if MP is fine, then AAR assist has more than enough support to warrant ED's resources.

There's nothing to grasp for here.

Edited April 10, 2024 by Exorcet

[freehand]

1 minute ago, Exorcet said:

If 33% is not enough to warrant support of a feature, then what does that say about something that supposedly only have 10% support?

From Sharp's logic, AAR assist has around 3 times the support of MP and should take higher priority than it. If an AAR assist isn't worth developer effort, presumably MP is even an even bigger waste of resources.

There's nothing to grasp for here.

Ah you saying cancelation of more development regarding mp thought you was saying as in stopping it lol. 

[PhantomHans]

Hey if it's about saving dev time,  ED can just stop all work on everything and never put any new features in.  That will save 100% of their time.

 

Not like I care.  I'd be equally happy to not own DCS now as to get the feature I attempted to wishlist.

[PhantomHans]

20 minutes ago, Tippis said:

The point is, he's arguing that 36% of people being strongly in favour of a feature means that it shouldn't be in the game.

Do you even virtual air combat bro?  This isn't just a game!  You do this hardcore or not at all!

Seriously though 36% want it.  Okay if that's not enough then what percent need to want something to justify the addition?

[SharpeXB]

36 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Nowhere in the poll does it say against.

The title reads “Easy AAR Poll”

What do you think “Yes” and “No” mean in that context?

1 minute ago, PhantomHans said:

Seriously though 36% want it.  Okay if that's not enough then what percent need to want something to justify the addition?

But nearly twice as many do not want it. 

Edited April 10, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The title reads “Easy AAR Poll”

What do you think “Yes” and “No” mean in that context?

The poll OP makes the question very clear and explicit: “how many of you want it badly”. The only further clarification is “the mode in question would be optional.” No further interpretation is needed.

It's a count of “want”, not a pro-contra. There is no “against”.

  

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But nearly twice as many do not want it. 

They don't matter if enough people do want it. And 36% is more than enough to clear that bar.

Edited April 10, 2024 by Tippis

[Exorcet]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The title reads “Easy AAR Poll”

What do you think “Yes” and “No” mean in that context?

You would need to ask the poll respondents if you wanted to find out since the poll isn't very specific.

Looking at the poll itself, the most straightforward interpretation is:

Yes - I want this badly

vs

No - I don't want this badly

And as it turns out the 33/66 split is compatible with a 100% vote of wanting easy AAR, but where only 33% of people want it "badly".

 

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But nearly twice as many do not want it.

No supporting evidence for this statement anywhere.

Edited April 10, 2024 by Exorcet

[PhantomHans]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But nearly twice as many do not want it. 

 

Then don't turn it on?

[NIGHTHAWK1]

Just to put in my 2 cents worth.  I agree with PhantomHans, (just so you know that you have some support here).  I am only 72, but have spent many years teaching students various skills: youth baseball, horseback riding, carpentry,, skiing.  All of these require a person to learn the simple steps before the more advanced.  I know of many people who were taken to the top of the mountain and told to "ski", or put on a horse and told to "ride", or told to hit the ball, (and many of these people never attempted that activity again), which is the case of DCS = lost customer.  I think that all of the helps in DCS are good for beginning to learn this game.  I have 1000s of hours of sim time and still find some aspect hard to learn.

2nd note:  DCS is missing a huge revenue source by making this game only for the "hardcore" simmer.  It is obvious that they are struggling, just read the writing on the walls.  Bringing the beginners into flight sims could be a large benefit for us all in that they would generate more $ resources to make more for improvemens and new mods.     

Edited April 10, 2024 by NIGHTHAWK1

[Jackjack171]

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

It actually turns out that they can. If the assist did exist and people used to refuel in missions, it could help get them accustomed to the idea of doing it manually.

One real life analogue, training wheels, are intended to help the user work up to the point where the training aid is removed. Even if the user at first never considers moving up the ladder, they can change their mind later.

Some people may never move up, but that's also fine. If it doesn't impact you, who care?

No where does the poll say against.

33% support is a sizeable amount of the playerbase, so that poll seems like a good indicator that it would be a popular addition in a sim where not everyone is going to be interested in every feature.

I care because it's a forum where people talk and exchange ideas, no matter how ludicrous they are. We all have the ability to throw our 2 cents into the hat. Training wheels are temporary and meant to teach! As the OP stated, he's not for learning AAR, he wants it done. This is a time and ineptness issue. None of which are ED's problem BTW! If memory serves me correct, the majority of users asking for this state or have stated similar reasons. 

That in itself is enough to squash debate! 

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

You would need to ask the poll respondents if you wanted to find out since the poll isn't very specific.

Looking at the poll itself, the most straightforward interpretation is:

Yes - I want this badly

vs

No - I don't want this badly

And as it turns out the 33/66 split is compatible with a 100% vote of wanting easy AAR, but where only 33% of people want it "badly".

It’s a simple Yes or No answer. Not “No I don’t want this badly or yet or at all” etc. You’re twisting words there.

11 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

No supporting evidence for this statement anywhere.

 

[freehand]

6 minutes ago, NIGHTHAWK1 said:

Just to put in my 2 cents worth.  I agree with PhantomHans, (just so you know that you have some support here).  I am only 72, but have spent many years teaching students various skills: youth baseball, horseback riding, carpentry,, skiing.  All of these require a person to learn the simple steps before the more advanced.  I know of many people who were taken to the top of the mountain and told to "ski", or put on a horse and told to "ride", or told to hit the ball, (and many of these people never attempted that activity again), which is the case of DCS = lost customer.  I think that all of the helps in DCS are good for beginning to learn this game.  I have 1000s of hours of sim time and still find some aspect hard to learn.

2nd note:  DCS is missing a huge revenue source by making this game only for the "hardcore" simmer.  It is obvious that they are struggling, just read the writing on the walls.  Bringing the beginners into flight sims could be a large benefit for us all in that they would generate more $ resources to make more for improvemens and new mods.     

 

ED are not struggling.

[Tippis]

12 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I care because it's a forum where people talk and exchange ideas, no matter how ludicrous they are. We all have the ability to throw our 2 cents into the hat. Training wheels are temporary and meant to teach!

So are the training wheels we cite as various methods of making AAR easier and exist on a graduated scale. If the OP wants them to stay on, then that's his choice and it affects no-one. His keeping them on isn't a reason to not implement those helpers.

12 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

If memory serves me correct, the majority of users asking for this state or have stated similar reasons. 

Citation needed.

12 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

That in itself is enough to squash debate! 

Only in the sense that there is no reason to argue against hose wishes. Again, just because they want to use helpers in a specific way doesn't mean there's no reason to implement them or to discuss various ideas for implementation. The debate isn't squashed at all — it just shifts to how best to implement those helpers so as to make them as broadly useful as possible.

 

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s a simple Yes or No answer

…to the question of whether people “want it badly.” There is no “against”. That's you twisting the words in the poll. No simply means no to that question.

The “no” column does not provide evidence for your claim that people don't want it. Just that they don't want it badly. Interpreting “no” as a strict “do not want it at all” is also twisting the words in the poll. This is why you really need to be more careful when you employ your standard tactic of trying to use polls as evidence for your stance: because they invariable prove you wrong, because you invariably fail to read what the poll actually asks and what the answers say in relation to that question.

Edited April 10, 2024 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, NIGHTHAWK1 said:

Just to put in my 2 cents worth.  I agree with PhantomHans, (just so you know that you have some support here).  I am only 72, but have spent many years teaching students various skills: youth baseball, horseback riding, carpentry,, skiing.  All of these require a person to learn the simple steps before the more advanced.  I know of many people who were taken to the top of the mountain and told to "ski", or put on a horse and told to "ride", or told to hit the ball, (and many of these people never attempted that activity again), which is the case of DCS = lost customer.  I think that all of the helps in DCS are good for beginning to learn this game.  I have 1000s of hours of sim time and still find some aspect hard to learn.

2nd note:  DCS is missing a huge revenue source by making this game only for the "hardcore" simmer.  It is obvious that they are struggling, just read the writing on the walls.  Bringing the beginners into flight sims could be a large benefit for us all in that they would generate more $ resources to make more for improvemens and new mods.     

 

Although instruction is great, a PC game cannot literally take your hand and teach you a physical skill. I can imagine if someone who had learned AAR literally took your hand and demonstrated the control inputs to you that would be a big help. IRL that’s done with dual instruction aircraft controls. But such things just are not feasible here. So for the most part you are on your own to teach yourself. I find AAR akin to riding a bicycle using only your vision as feedback. Did someone teach you to ride a bicycle or did you learn to ride one. If you think about it you learned it through practice. There’s not another way. 

[Jackjack171]

19 minutes ago, Tippis said:

So are the training wheels we cite as various methods of making AAR easier and exist on a graduated scale. If the OP wants them to stay on, then that's his choice and it affects no-one. His keeping them on isn't a reason to not implement those helpers.

Citation needed.

 

 

 

 

 Some people want to ice skate uphill for sure! You are correct, this is an endless debate. I'm not citing anything though. You've seen the comments just as I have. I'd bet that they (the comments) are still there although locked. This topic screams ineptness, entitlement, and a failure to plan. And somehow, ED is supposed to fix that...wow! 

And this community is one of the most helpful out there. A plethora of knowledge, experience and help. The OP thinks otherwise.

My training wheels and helpers are my hands, feet and eyes. The sim is cheap and ours to do with as one chooses, all day. Practice makes perfect and there are many ways to learn if one WANTS to...but sadly, that's not the case here. 

Edited April 10, 2024 by Jackjack171

[Tippis]

50 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Although instruction is great, a PC game cannot literally take your hand and teach you a physical skill.

Yes it can. Depending on exactly how literal you are, it might need some less common hardware, but it's still entirely possible.

50 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I can imagine if someone who had learned AAR literally took your hand and demonstrated the control inputs to you that would be a big help. IRL that’s done with dual instruction aircraft controls.

If someone literally took your hand IRL, that wouldn't be good teaching and the instructor would probably be grounded if not fired outright. They have dual controls for a reason. As for demonstrating the control inputs, guess what? That can be done as well. In fact, that functionality is not just feasible — it's already in the game.

50 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I find AAR akin to riding a bicycle using only your vision as feedback. Did someone teach you to ride a bicycle or did you learn to ride one.

…and since visual and auditory (and to some extent physical) feedback are the only options, there should be a focus on enhancing how those visuals, those audio cues, and that physical feedback can be improved to enhance the learning experience. Just like how you probably had someone help you when you learned to ride a bike — maybe they even told you why you had to do the things that you were meant to do. Helping helps. Teaching helps. Everything helps and forcing the poor person to just learn on their own without any kind of guidance is the worst and most inefficient way imaginable to impart and improve skills.

 

50 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I'm not citing anything though. You've seen the comments just as I have.

Then I will simply state that, if memory serves me correctly, the majority of users asking for these things discuss them in the context of providing helper tools that can be used to build missions to teach AAR. Some may have chimed in how this would help them getting the actual refuelling done with less effort and that this was the entire goal, but they were minority voices in the debate.

Also, being all accusatory and looking down your nose at the people who want to see the game improve just screams of elitism, snobbery, failure to teach, and lack of imagination. See how that works? And unlike making the game better and striving towards the kind of hand-holding that is a key feature of the game, ED can't really fix that kind of negativity… Well, mostly not at least.

50 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

And this community is one of the most helpful out there.

LMAO no. This community is by far the most anti-newbie I've ever encountered. Every single time someone suggests improvements that would make new players' lives and learning progression easier, they get drowned in abuse and accusations and vitriol.

There is plenty of knowledge and experience out there, but unless you're willing to go through the traditional hazing of old, you are not worthy and need to go somewhere else — that is the one consistent message of naysaying and gatekeeping that they face if they just wander in. Some are lucky enough to come in via established communities, but they get their help there, not from the wider community as a whole. It's also in these smaller communities you find the support for these kinds of features, because they understand what's missing to make it easier to teach those newbies. They have to deal with the gaps in the feature set on a daily basis.

Edited April 10, 2024 by Tippis

[freehand]

You talk absolute nonsense you constantly twist every thing to your liking it's ridiculous.    

[Jackjack171]

1 hour ago, freehand said:

You talk absolute nonsense you constantly twist every thing to your liking it's ridiculous.    

Was thinking the same about the twisting...thought I saw it, but you just confirmed it!

Edited April 10, 2024 by Jackjack171