not planned Easy/Medium/Hard/Realistic refueling options.

[Tippis]

40 minutes ago, Furiz said:

I think people that don't like playing simulations shouldn't be playing simulations.

This idea is meant to help people who like playing simulations and the only reason to be against it is if you don't want others to like the same thing. So I take that as an approval.

Again, the OP is asking for something that lies fully in line with the core intent of this game and which lets everyone get more out of it.

1 hour ago, sirrah said:

Are you guys seriously starting this:

again?

With a bit of luck, this time it won't be trolled to death by naysayers who can't articulate a good reason why it shouldn't happen.

So yes. After all, that's what the wishlist forum is all about.  

[PhantomHans]

52 minutes ago, Furiz said:

I think people that don't like playing simulations shouldn't be playing simulations.

Simulations!

Yes that's a great way to look at it.

I am too tall to fit into the cockpit of many of these aircraft.  DCS simulates that I fit.

I am too blind to pass a vision check to be a military pilot.  DCS simulates I am 20/20.

I am too impatient to deal with ground school, flight school, exams, paperwork, trainers, first solo flight, air force academy, etc.  DCS simulates I can skip that.

If I die in a car crash on my way to work I am dead for all time.  DCS simulates I can respawn again and again.

Sometimes I forget where the basic gauges are, or the controls.  DCS simulates that I can press CTRL+Y to magically know my altitude, speed, heading, or pause to change a setting.

In real life time moves at one speed regardless of if it's convenient for me or not.  In DCS I can speed it up or pause it to 'cut to the action' or take a leak and grab fresh coffee before taking that cat shot.

All of that is okay, but if I lack the skill to complete AAR and DCS simulates that I do have the skill to accomplish it, then I don't like simulations and the whole point is ruined and you're offended personally that I want THIS shortcut?

 

 

I'm sorry but I think there is plenty of room here for another difficulty option or simplification, and that it should be implemented.  If we don't want to offer varying levels of help/crutch then can we simply have a way to go to precontact and let the AI take over the jet temporarily to fuel up in missions and servers where it won't offend anyone?

[SharpeXB]

AAR isn’t necessary to play the game. There’s plenty you can do on shorter flights without it. In fact most people probably don’t play long enough sessions to even need it. If you manage your fuel correctly you can fly across the entirety of these maps without it. Any of the campaigns which feature it always have a workaround. Then of course there’s unlimited fuel as a gameplay aid. So there’s no real need for Easy AAR unless you just somehow want to pretend you’re refueling. Which you could still do with unlimited fuel, just fly behind the tanker and pretend. It would be the same thing. 

[ex81]

Is there any DCS training mission for AAR ????

[Tippis]

28 minutes ago, ex81 said:

Is there any DCS training mission for AAR ????

Only really in the sense of “here's a tanker — try to connect.”

The game doesn't really allow for much more, and that's part of the problem. Whereas other things that you need to practice a lot have all kinds of functions and triggers and shortcuts that you can employ to create a smooth learning curve and to create missions that actually teach you whatever it is, AAR does not. Because teaching and learning AAR properly is apparently “arcade”. You must absolutely do it the worst way possible because…

31 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

AAR isn’t necessary to play the game.

Lots of things aren't “necessary” for the game. Like the Hornet, for instance. Completely unnecessary. So that one really needs to not be in the game and the devs shouldn't waste any time or effort on it… right?

Or maybe you want to include them anyway because it brings something to the experience. In addition, as maps get larger, AAR will become more and more natural to include. And you don't want to exclude players from having that experience for no good reason, which in MP in particular means that you need to cater to a number of different skill levels and playstyle choices, preferably without cutting out a different category of players in the process.

This is why anyone with even the slightest shred of understanding of the game knows that unlimited fuel is not a workaround: because it cannot be selectively applied and because when it is included, it breaks all fuel management. Removing fuel management is not a replacement for requiring fuel management, but in a more complex way. In fact, it does the exact opposite of what you want. It's quite silly to suggest otherwise.

Edited April 9, 2024 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, ex81 said:

Is there any DCS training mission for AAR ????

There are practice missions. That’s really all that’s needed. Again this is like 2% instruction and 98% practice. The actual steps in the cockpit like extending the probe and such are very simple. There are tons of tutorials for this on YouTube. Honestly this is something only very few people do so the investment in some interactive training missions probably isn’t warranted. I think the Harrier has one. Maybe the F-15E too, I don’t recall at the moment. 

[Tippis]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There are practice missions. That’s really all that’s needed.

Only if by “needed” you mean the barest minimum to force people to learn thing poorly, inefficiently, and invariably the wrong way.

If by “needed” you mean tools and methods to actually let people practice in a structured way and to teach them one step at a time, then no, there aren't and much more is needed.

Needlessly making things a chore and a grind and make players turn away from parts of the gameplay is, by definition, never needed.

Edited April 9, 2024 by Tippis

[lmp]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

You don’t really need an overlay for something you can see right in front of you. The IFLOLS is tiny on most screens but the boom, probe or tanker and its lights aren’t. 

The probe on the Harrier is not in front of you and in other aircraft it's often hidden behind the canopy frame. Add to that the fact that most people don't use VR and have to deal with no 3D vision and compromise between field of view and resolution. It can be done, I suffered through it, but I don't see why others should have to. Constant pausing and switching to F2 view to understand what am I still doing wrong, because I don't have depth perception and no one will tell me "you're too far left" is an exercise in frustration that has nothing to do with realism.

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

AAR is 2% instruction and 98% practice. A tutorial can’t do the practice for you. Any video can show you the basics, the rest is up to you. 

A video can also show me the absolutely wrong way to do it. The most popular youtubers aren't always the most knowledgeable. There is so much bad info out there on all aspects of flying it isn't even funny. It goes completely against ED's stated ambition "to hand hold users from novice pilot all the way to the most advanced and sophisticated operator of such complex weapons systems as the A-10C Warthog or the F/A-18C Hornet" (thanks @Tippis for finding this).

I find it very curious that there is so much push back against even very development-light suggestions aiming to improve the AAR learning experience, such as better tutorials. It smells of gatekeeping.

[PhantomHans]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

So there’s no real need for Easy AAR unless you just somehow want to pretend you’re refueling.

Why not then?  What if I want to pretend I'm refueling?

I'm already pretending that it's 1989, pretending that I'm a naval aviator, pretending that I'm flying an F-14, pretending I'm at war with the Soviets...

Why can't I pretend I'm refueling?

 

If I turn on unlimited fuel then I don't worry about fuel management at all.  Apparently some people here think unlimited fuel is less realism breaking than easy AAR.  I can't understand that.  With easy AAR I have to save enough to at least get it back to the tanker and into position to take fuel.  Although I think the easiest setting should make it essentially automated by AI, there should be settings between that and full realistic requiring player involvement. 

[Furiz]

2 hours ago, Tippis said:

This idea is meant to help people who like playing simulations and the only reason to be against it is if you don't want others to like the same thing.

But it wont help anyone,

They can, as it was said countless times before, use their free time to practice formation flying and then aerial refueling. As thousands others have done before and succeeded in doing so, instead of dropping bombs, they spent their time learning to fly formation. Then after they learned to fly formation and refuel they started dropping bombs.

Or if they skipped AAR they know they don't qualify for long missions, so they do short missions.

 

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

I am too tall to fit into the cockpit of many of these aircraft.  DCS simulates that I fit.

I am too blind to pass a vision check to be a military pilot.  DCS simulates I am 20/20.

Body height and eyesight is not something you can choose - how to spend your free time is something you can choose, I suggest you spend it on practicing.

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

I am too impatient to deal with ground school, flight school, exams, paperwork, trainers, first solo flight, air force academy, etc.  DCS simulates I can skip that.

As for your ground school etc, you can choose that but DCS doesn't require you to go through all that.

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

If I die in a car crash on my way to work I am dead for all time.  DCS simulates I can respawn again and again.

And lastly this is a simulator, not real life, I hope you can distinguish the two.

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

Sometimes I forget where the basic gauges are, or the controls.  DCS simulates that I can press CTRL+Y to magically know my altitude, speed, heading, or pause to change a setting.

In real life time moves at one speed regardless of if it's convenient for me or not.  In DCS I can speed it up or pause it to 'cut to the action' or take a leak and grab fresh coffee before taking that cat shot.

CTRL+Y, and speed up or pause is for testing and bug reporting purposes mostly, but its convenient if you don't have much time to spend through 30 min of straight forward flight, or you need a toilet break, we are at home after all.

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

All of that is okay, but if I lack the skill to complete AAR and DCS simulates that I do have the skill to accomplish it, then I don't like simulations and the whole point is ruined and you're offended personally that I want THIS shortcut?

Yes it is ok,

skill is something you get by spending time practicing, it comes down to your choice of how you'll spend your time if you don't practice you wont get the skill required to accomplish a certain task. And that is not the reason to turn a simulation into arcade.

And if you can not do AAR then you are not qualified to do long mission which require AAR, for that reason you should do shorter missions, or, we come there again, practice AAR.

After all AAR is not required to play DCS.

 

 

As I said, people that don't like simulating shouldn't be simulating since they don't like it.

But instead they want to change simulation into arcade. I think that is whats wrong here.

 

Edited April 9, 2024 by Furiz

[Exorcet]

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

But it wont help anyone,

The benefits have been listed before. If the barrier to AAR are lowered it allows players to approach AAR more often and to practice more often. Instead of being required to choose between a refueling practice session or flying a mission an assist allows players to do both at once, effectively making it possible to practice refueling in any session.

1 minute ago, Furiz said:

And lastly this is a simulator, not real life, I hope you can distinguish the two.

Exactly, so there is no reason why assists don't fit here, which is pretty obvious given the very many other assists that already exist.

 

3 minutes ago, Furiz said:

turn a simulation into arcade.

Meaning what exactly?

[Furiz]

2 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The benefits have been listed before. If the barrier to AAR are lowered it allows players to approach AAR more often and to practice more often. Instead of being required to choose between a refueling practice session or flying a mission an assist allows players to do both at once, effectively making it possible to practice refueling in any session.

You can practice refueling in any session right now.

All you have to do is choose a short mission with tanker, fly up to it and spend 10 min practicing, after that go bomb stuff and land, refuel/rearm and do it again.

3 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Exactly, so there is no reason why assists don't fit here, which is pretty obvious given the very many other assists that already exist.

Its not that kind of assist as others.

 

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Meaning what exactly?

Meaning we don't want WT or MSFS here, thanks.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, lmp said:

The probe on the Harrier is not in front of you and in other aircraft it's often hidden behind the canopy frame.

That’s indeed a tough one but I imagine you’re using visual references on the tanker which are very visible. For any of the other aircraft a screen graphic isn’t needed because you can clearly see where your plane needs to be. Knowing where you need to be isn’t the problem. Doing it is what takes practice. 

12 minutes ago, lmp said:

A video can also show me the absolutely wrong way to do it. The most popular youtubers aren't always the most knowledgeable.

A little savvy goes a long way in determining who knows what they’re doing. It’s not too hard to figure out. Certainly having more training missions for this isn’t such a bad idea but that’s not the obstacle. 

[PawlaczGMD]

If the proponents of this feature would spend the time practicing instead of flaming on the forum, they wouldn't need the aids.

[kendoric2]

Just practice... you will eventually be able to AAR. Make your own mission or just use the ones that are already there. AAR is not easy specially in a F-14 but with practice you'll be able to do it. However if you do not want to practice then that's on YOU. People can give you tips on how to do it but if you as a person don't even try then what's the point? 

[Grodin]

Just don't do it or spend a few hours training for it, jeez, its not hard. Devs have much more important things to do. If you want to pretend its WT just turn on unlimited fuel and go full afterburner everywhere.

[Tippis]

21 minutes ago, Furiz said:

But it wont help anyone,

Of course it will.

It will help people who want to take part in more complex missions but wouldn't otherwise, thereby entrenching them more in the game and giving them more reason to play more and practice more, especially with friends. Making practising and learning fun.

It will help people by smoothing out the learning curve and creating means to actually teach AAR. making practising and learning easier and more efficient.

It will help people by creating more complex content for everyone.

21 minutes ago, Furiz said:

As thousands others have done before and succeeded in doing so,

…and just because they did it the dumb and inefficient way, all others who follow must categorically do the same? No.

Tradition is bunk — hazing as a tradition doubly so. Doing something badly is not an argument in favour of keeping doing it badly. It's an argument for improving how it's done.

21 minutes ago, Furiz said:

As I said, people that don't like simulating shouldn't be simulating since they don't like it.

But instead they want to change simulation into arcade. I think that is whats wrong here.

No-one is trying to change simulation into arcade. Quite the opposite. They want to experience more of the simulation because they like simulations. That's why they are here. As it happens, one of the best ways of improving a simulation is to increase the number of means and methods in which an increased number of situations can be broken down in learnable and teachable bits. As a bonus, it also lets everyone enjoy it more, together.

11 minutes ago, Furiz said:

You can practice refueling in any session right now.

All you have to do is choose a short mission with tanker, fly up to it and spend 10 min practicing, after that go bomb stuff and land, refuel/rearm and do it again.

That's an extraordinarily poorly designed AAR practice mission. Hence why better tools are needed.

 

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s indeed a tough one but I imagine you’re using visual references on the tanker which are very visible. For any of the other aircraft a screen graphic isn’t needed because you can clearly see where your plane needs to be. Knowing where you need to be isn’t the problem. Doing it is what takes practice. 

…and guess what makes that practice be vastly more efficient? Helpers that show you what you should be looking for so you can get your eye in for what's right — what the world around you should look like — so you don't have to guess or, worse, learn the wrong things.

 

9 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

If the proponents of this feature would spend the time practicing instead of flaming on the forum, they wouldn't need the aids.

Conversely, if the opponents could come up with an actual argument against this addition, they wouldn't need to resort to fallacies.

Edited April 9, 2024 by Tippis

[PhantomHans]

9 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Meaning we don't want WT or MSFS here, thanks.

Ah, so it IS a form of discriminations that motivates you!

I suspected as much when I realized how eager you were to dictate to me what to do with my time, how I should play this game, what I should do when I play, what I should use certain settings for.

 

You know why I don't ever intend on doing what you tell me?  Because *MY* money paid for *MY* copy of DCS and I can do what I want with it.  And what I want are some scalable difficulty settings for AAR so that I can actually enjoy the product I paid plenty of good money for without the requirement to be able to AAR preventing me from playing a campaign that I paid for.

[SharpeXB]

14 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

Why not then?  What if I want to pretend I'm refueling?

You already can. Just select unlimited fuel and fly behind the tanker.

15 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

If I turn on unlimited fuel then I don't worry about fuel management at all.

Well if you want some extra challenge in the sim now you’ve got a reason to learn AAR. Plus you can experience managing fuel on shorter flights. Not every flight involves AAR. 

13 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

If the barrier to AAR are lowered it allows players to approach AAR more often and to practice more often

Easy. Just select unlimited fuel and try some tanker practice on your missions. Then when you feel you’ve got it, take off the training wheels. Simple. 

9 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

If the proponents of this feature would spend the time practicing instead of flaming on the forum, they wouldn't need the aids.

This indeed. I’m guessing the people who complain about being incapable of AAR actually have hundreds of hours in the game. They’ve just chosen other things to do with that time. And time is all it takes. 

[PhantomHans]

6 minutes ago, Grodin said:

Just don't do it or spend a few hours training for it, jeez, its not hard. Devs have much more important things to do. If you want to pretend its WT just turn on unlimited fuel and go full afterburner everywhere.

If I wanted to spend a few hours training for it, then I would spend a few hours training for it.  If all it took to fly with the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds was spending the time to "Get Gud Scrub" then any and every pilot could do it, right?

Maybe I don't have hours and hours to spend learning AAR in all of the different aircraft I paid big bucks to fly.  Maybe I want to jump in and fly a mission without the frustration of coming up on a surprise roadblock that I can't pass.

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

You already can. Just select unlimited fuel and fly behind the tanker.

Well if you want some extra challenge in the sim now you’ve got a reason to learn AAR. Plus you can experience managing fuel on shorter flights. Not every flight involves AAR. 

Do you not recognize the vast difference between unlimited fuel and easier AAR?

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Easy. Just select unlimited fuel and try some tanker practice on your missions. Then when you feel you’ve got it, take off the training wheels. Simple. 

Again, as has been described, that does the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.

Removing all ability to manage fuel is not a replacement for wanting more complex fuel management. It's an idiotic suggestion.

[Furiz]

I think this is going in the same direction as other threads,

they are providing all the wrong reasons for something that is really not needed, and all they have to do is spend some time practicing.

[PhantomHans]

Just now, Furiz said:

I think this is going in the same direction as other threads,

they are providing all the wrong reasons for something that is really not needed, and all they have to do is spend some time practicing.

I think we agree, this is going the wrong direction.

It is packed full of toxic gatekeepers who are providing all the wrong reasons and excuses for the lack of a key feature, and all they have to do is stop telling others how to play the game.

[Grodin]

8 minutes ago, PhantomHans said:

If I wanted to spend a few hours training for it, then I would spend a few hours training for it.  If all it took to fly with the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds was spending the time to "Get Gud Scrub" then any and every pilot could do it, right?

Maybe I don't have hours and hours to spend learning AAR in all of the different aircraft I paid big bucks to fly.  Maybe I want to jump in and fly a mission without the frustration of coming up on a surprise roadblock that I can't pass.

Do you not recognize the vast difference between unlimited fuel and easier AAR?

I'm not saying it would be bad if they could just magically make that kind of option appear without spending time to code it. But they cant and i want devs to focus on things like fixing bugs, adding missing features to the modules, implementing vulcan, improving the AI etc etc which i consider more important. Now the question is how big part of the customers want this or that. There are more pressing matters that affect 99% of players or 70% of players etc and then there are things that maybe 0,5% of players consider important. We can only guess which features are which.

[PhantomHans]

Just now, Grodin said:

I'm not saying it would be bad if they could just magically make that kind of option appear without spending time to code it. But they cant and i want devs to focus on things like fixing bugs, adding missing features to the modules, implementing vulcan, improving the AI etc etc which i consider more important. Now the question is how big part of the customers want this or that. There are more pressing matters that affect 99% of players or 70% of players etc and then there are things that maybe 0,5% of players consider important. We can only guess which features are which.

Okay that's fair enough.  So we can dive into that argument a little bit.

Programming a complex system of multiple levels of difficulty to allow the player to slowly remove the "training wheels" may take lots and lots of time.  Sure.  That would be my ideal solution so that as I gradually 'suck less at life' I can turn the assist down until it's off.

 

How about using already programmed functionality to make a work around and simply offer "Realistic" and "Arcade" fueling options?

For "Arcade" AAR:
Open the comms menu.
Select Tanker.
Request Refueling.
Fly to precontact position.
Tell tanker you're at precontact.
Tanker says "Cleared Contact".
"ARCADE AAR IN PROGRESS" displays on screen to publicly embarrass anyone making a YouTube video.  Control of the player aircraft switches to the AI.  The AI moves the player aircraft into position, takes fuel until the tanks are full, goes idle throttle, deploys the speed brakes, and hands control back to the player.

That's not ideally what I want, but that would be enough for me to not be angry when flying and finding out that AAR is required or my best option, and to stop me from wanting to come here and offend all the aces on the forums.