VPForce Vs. FFBeast Comparison?

[shwed]

"VP Force has much better software that has add in effects that flight sim games might not simulate." - FFBeast software is flexible and functional, there are effects and force generation for simulators that do not have native ffb. Weight of the elevator, rolling on the ground, etc., it's all there.

"...3kg of strength is enough for me, it’s convenient..." - only simulator users talk it Real pilots like more force, and they say it's plausible.

 

null

[Lt_Jaeger]

Rhino user. 

I'm happy with the rhino.

My griefs would be that I would like to have more power available. Not really to apply it, but for "reserve". If I dogfight, after a while the fans come on (which I barely notice in VR - but they ARE loud) and keeping on fighting, the rhino gradually reduces force to keep temperature in check. That is great by itself, but throws off my muscle memory. During normal flight, I'm almost to the dot being able to pull 6g on my daily ride, without peeking at the "g-meter". That "feel" is reduced to save the motors from heat death and is balanced out by the software. 

What I don't really need is more force, since my VKB F-14 stick already starts to bend and squeak with the current force. 

There is some slight bending involved in the case but that is minimal. More though the main amount of "bending" is in my mounting solution. I use the monstertech mount to keep stuff removable. 

So all in all, the breast looks more beefy, but I would not know how to use it. 

Other than that, the software, especially the TelemFFB piece is king. Later is developed by the community and I got already 2 of my features requests implemented. 

 

 

So my conclusion without knowing the beast:

 

I thought of getting one (beast) but would not sure how to mount / use it. It would just be for the build quality, materials and raw power availability. 

That said im very very happy with my rhino. With 90%of my flying it's spot on, no need for an upgrade. I feel happy in the VP force community and will not look around as long as I can't build me a dedicated simpit. If I do, I will re evaluate 

Edited May 12 by Lt_Jaeger

[shwed]

FFBeast motors do not heat up, cooling is not needed, and accordingly the forces do not decrease with heating

[some1]

5 hours ago, HILOK said:

that's interesting. could you please elaborate on this? do you mean curve settings in dcs have no effect on ffb sticks? are there any workarounds? thanks  

Curves modify the input as usual, but they do not modify the forces, or rather modify the forces as if the stick was in a different place. The stick position does not align with the forces any more. This is especially visible in helicopters with central trimmer, but it gets messy in aircraft too. 

 

2 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

VKB F-14 stick already starts to bend and squeak with the current force. 

True, not sure how much force most of the popular grips can take, but even with Rhino and FSSB set at moderate levels, I have to tighten the screws on my Virpil and Thrustmaster grips from time to time, as they become loose and you can feel the main shaft starts to move. There are people who snapped the shafts on Thrustmaster grips, fortunately there are replacement parts from less brittle material.

Or more sturdy grips like Tianhang.

4 hours ago, shwed said:

Real pilots like more force, and they say it's plausible.

It's not about what's plausible, but rather what's practical. Real pilots like what they're used to in real life. But I'm not sure there are many people here who would want to dogfight in a Hornet using realistic forces, requiring 18kg (40 lbs) for max deflection. If you're one of them, then sure, FFBeast or a custom VPforce with a set of stronger motors, or that ultra expensive Brunner base is the way to go.

Edited May 12 by some1

[Aapje]

8 hours ago, propeler said:

Ahhh..  userS. Ok then Continue to believe in what you want to believe

This is not really the kind of response that I would like to see from a company.

Ultimately, everyone who makes a product is going to have a bias towards their own product*, if only because they are more experienced with it and have more knowledge. So I'm sure that you are happy with the user friendliness of your software, but you know it inside and out. That doesn't mean that people who don't start off that knowledge or any bias, won't have more difficulty with it than you.

This is why the better companies seek out external reviewers to give feedback, as they don't have the the bias and blind spots as those that involved with making the company. It's a bit unfortunate that there don't seem to be any people who tried out both the Rhino and the FFBeast, who can truly compare it.

Anyway, I've never seen anyone who used the FFBeast mention cogging, but Rhino users mention it, so I don't know what to think. Do you believe that there is any cogging in your product?

* That includes me, as I also make products for others.

[MAXsenna]

22 hours ago, propeler said:

Have you used FFBeast software? At least opened it?

Touchy much? I'm sure it's great!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Edited May 12 by MAXsenna

[MAXsenna]

Thanks @Mikestriken for a great subject! I was, well thought I was, going the Rhino route. As it's gotten great reviews, especially the software, from what I've seen. Then I read about "The Beast", (C'mon guys, are you twelve? And yeah, Rhino was already taken by Saitek, so I'm shaking my head in disbelief for the lack of imagination for such great products ).

But then we get the petulant responses above. 

52 minutes ago, Aapje said:

This is not really the kind of response that I would like to see from a company.

Yup! This really makes me wonder if it's worth it. Will we get such responses from support? The only company that has gotten away with this kind of attitude towards its customers is Apple. Are you Apple @propeler?  

Edited May 12 by MAXsenna

[propeler]

4 hours ago, Aapje said:

Do you believe that there is any cogging in your product?

Which exact product you are asking about?  FFBeast is not single specific device. It's concept of using components freely available on the market to build FFB joystick or FFB wheel. You can check how I was reviving FFB from zero to understand where it comes from and maybe my motivation around it. 

What I found from all my experiments(using different motors from hobby grade to industrial motors) - cogging is something that is determined by motor and not from other components (including software). Cogging is present on every single BLDC motor on the market. it is the problem with which way more advanced engineers are fighting for years already. But what is important - is a proportion of cogging force to the max force. And I would say howerboard motor is extremely god in that ratio. With 0 force applied when motor is freewheeling with reducer 1:3 at full length stick (45cm from center of rotation to point of measurement) cog force is present and is around 10 gramms. With 10+ kg of peak force it is less then 0.1%. When even slight spring force is applied (50 grams and more) - it  completely mask cogs.

 

Quote

This is why the better companies seek out external reviewers to give feedback

That's why I asked you if you used it. Because I consider as feedback something that person who uses product gives from first hand. Not a an opinion about opinion.

 

4 hours ago, Aapje said:

So I'm sure that you are happy with the user friendliness of your software

No, I'm not happy. And constantly changing it. But for people who use it and see how to improve. That's why I asked if you at least downloaded software and opened it to see how it works

 

Quote

I'm sure it's great!

But I'm not. That's why I have discord with tone of discussions what exactly could work differently and why

Edited May 12 by propeler

[propeler]

On 5/11/2024 at 11:48 AM, some1 said:

Contrary to what other guy says about Mosquito, that plane in DCS doesn't require stronger base, it just needs small inputs to fly well.  One fundamental thing about FFB in general is that it doesn't work with input curves. So you cannot use curves in the software to fix twitchy FM, which some guys over at Mossie forum tried to and learned the hard way. Mosquito also has an issue with trim due to ED hardcoded effects, but this is the same with every FFB device.

What exact problem with trim is there? I tried and it works normally as for me. The FM is not twitchy on it's own. You are right that it requires small inputs, because Mossquito has HUGE elevator control surfaces. But to produce small input you need to have resistance immediately near the center. As in reality because of big air load on elevator you just can not deflect stick much. 

No curves. Linear response. First time in Mosquito. Heavy Thrustmaster grip on 200mm extension. 

 

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, propeler said:

Which exact product you are asking about?  FFBeast is not single specific device. It's concept of using components freely available on the market to build FFB joystick or FFB wheel.

Given that this is the DCS forum, I thought that it was obvious that it's about the joystick.

2 hours ago, propeler said:

You can check how I was reviving FFB from zero to understand where it comes from and maybe my motivation around it.

Very interesting, although it's a lot to read.

2 hours ago, propeler said:

 When even slight spring force is applied (50 grams and more) - it completely mask cogs.

So would you say that cogging is unnoticable on both the FFBeast and the Rhino, in normal use cases?

2 hours ago, propeler said:

That's why I asked you if you used it. Because I consider as feedback something that person who uses product gives from first hand. Not a an opinion about opinion.

I wasn't really giving feedback to you, since I'm not a user of either product, but I was more interested in hearing from you what things you see as lacking and whether you plan to improve things.

Note that forming an opinion based on the opinions of people who already have a product is how many people decide whether to buy a product. This is especially true for buying from you or Walmis, since I doubt that either of you provide an easy return policy or even allow returns.

I understand that you are probably much more of an engineer than a sales person, but from the perspective of someone who still has to decide which one to get (or whether to get one at all), it's very helpful to understand the pros and cons of the available options.

2 hours ago, propeler said:

No, I'm not happy. And constantly changing it. But for people who use it and see how to improve.

[...] That's why I have discord with tone of discussions what exactly could work differently and why

Good to hear. Frankly, this is a lot better response than the one you gave earlier.

[Aapje]

13 hours ago, shwed said:

"VP Force has much better software that has add in effects that flight sim games might not simulate." - FFBeast software is flexible and functional, there are effects and force generation for simulators that do not have native ffb. Weight of the elevator, rolling on the ground, etc., it's all there.

Does the FFBeast software simulate the same extra effects that are not natively passed on as the Rhino? For DCS and the other two sims?

For example, the Rhino manual mentions a special 'Low Hydraulic Pressure Effect' effect for some DCS planes. Is this implemented for the FFBeast? The manual also mentions that it implements extra effects for IL-2. Are those also implemented in the FFBeast software?

13 hours ago, shwed said:

"...3kg of strength is enough for me, it’s convenient..." - only simulator users talk it Real pilots like more force, and they say it's plausible.

I personally don't look for maximum fidelity, but to have fun.

Perhaps it is helpful to have more power, but this is also something that is hard to judge without having some proper reviews of the products.

[Mikestriken]

On 5/11/2024 at 4:48 PM, Aapje said:

The users with experience are saying that the software for that device is better when it comes to cogging and ease of use. 

This is incorrect. Nobody has used both devices, so one cannot say definitively that FFBeast has cogging issues.

[Mikestriken]

8 hours ago, propeler said:

But I'm not. That's why I have discord with tone of discussions what exactly could work differ

I did join the discord, listed on https://ffbeast.github.io, but I have to say it is kinda badly organized. Major features is an announcement channel for information on software updates or other product updates and also a role for you so that I know who are the developers of the product.

I must say I cannot find any proof that you are the creator of the FFBeast at all. Neither your website nor the discord gives credit to WHO created the FFBeast. A lot of the feedback I see on the discord is from other users who are messing around with the stuff, nobody has hard first party information aside from what is on the website.

[some1]

12 hours ago, propeler said:

What exact problem with trim is there? I tried and it works normally as for me.

If you hold the grip firmly in place and keep trim button down, then at some point the stick in game will move by itself, the aircraft will pitch up and you won't be able to compensate even if you push the grip forward. Then after the aircraft slows down, the stick in game will reposition itself again.

This is ED's way of simulating control forces too high for the pilot to handle. Doesn't matter if your joystick makes 1kg or 30kg, the game will reduce the movement range for you. It works  "okay" (sort of), if you stay in correct trim and don't use any curves.

[shwed]

From two discussion pages, users came to the conclusion -  that ffbeast is plausible and allows the use of linear curves

[Hiob]

Ok Guys, yesterday I did my first prolonged flight in DCS with the (Kit-)Rhino. I am using it with a 10 cm extension.

1) Helicopters - FUCKING great! Experiencing "real" force trim is an absolute game changer. I love it. Max Force isn't an issue here anyway since helicopter sticks don't experience aerodynamic forces. (And btw. the biggest change was the OH-6, where I went from "barely taming" it to landing on heli pads with ease....)

2) Jets - I spend two hours or so in the Mirage F1, which seem to have great native FFB support. I was also really impressed. With increasing speed, the controls gets stiffer and stiffer to a point where you really need to pull really hard. I don't really see, how I would need more force than that.

I'm still learning to set everything up - spring, damping, inertia, friction, constant force - all that can be adjusted individually and it is a similiar minute process like setting up proper TrackIR curves - but lots of fun.

22 hours ago, shwed said:

FFBeast motors do not heat up, cooling is not needed....

That's very unlikely. Physics have a saying in that.

Edited May 13 by Hiob

[shwed]

9 минут назад, Hiob сказал:

That's very unlikely. Physics have a saying in that.

Because, it is true, large metal motors do not heat up even to the touch

[Hiob]

3 hours ago, shwed said:

Because, it is true, large metal motors do not heat up even to the touch

Ok, saying additional cooling by a fan isn't needed due to the mass and use of metal is a different thing than saying no cooling needed. All the watts need to be dissipated after all. 

But don't get me wrong - I'm not hitting on the FFBeast. Quite the opposite, from what I have seen of it, it is a very well put together piece of equippment. Heavy duty so to say. I can't really judge it, I never used one. All I'm saying is, I love the Rhino so far, love project around it, and can't really see (for me) the need for more power. I'd love to have one for comparison - but even though I have a habit of overspending for my hobbies, I won't buy a second FFB stick just for testing.....  (Maybe if I win the lottery.....) 

[shwed]

In my opinion, while FFBeast is leading the discussion

= the software generates forces and effects from telemetry for FFB or non-ffb simulators,

+ full metal construction,

+ more power,

+ more believable for real pilots,

+ no need to actively cool,

+ no need to adjust axis curves,

+ ffb rudder pedals,

what else?

[Aapje]

It's a little one-sided when you don't name any downsides.

[Hiob]

Well, I can think of two. It is frickin‘ huge and frickin‘ heavy. You can see it as pro or con, but you need a place to mount it.

[propeler]

On 5/11/2024 at 6:57 PM, VirusAM said:

Hi, can you elaborate more on that?
I fly the F14 in my squadron, and the F14 center point with the rhino is tilted a bit forward.
How do I shift it back to the center?
Thanks

Man. You opened my eyes! I was thinking that it is just because some trim applied at start! In next release of firmware I will implement center offset for modules with non symmetric travel on pitch forward and backward

[propeler]

17 hours ago, Hiob said:

It is frickin‘ huge and frickin‘ heavy

Heavy - yes. Frickin Huge? hmmm. It is not so much bigger than Rhino. 

17 hours ago, Aapje said:

It's a little one-sided when you don't name any downsides.

I would question all this topic another way. I would say that those devices are just different, and for different types of simmers. It is like discussing downsides of light fast racecar or downsides of heavy load track. There is no much sense to compare them, because them are engineered  just for different tasks and purpose.

The same there. The right question should be - Which device is right for you!? Because those devices are just for different kinds of simmers. I do not consider FFBeast to be device for everybody. It was not intended to be. It was developed for those who want to have high force on the stick. And some other parameters were compromised to reach that goal. If you do not need high forces on stick, if you do not plan mount it firmly on some stable surface or in rigid cockpit, if you do not use longer extensions and heavy grips, if you do not need extra "hardcore" in your flightsimming experience - probably FFBeast is just not a device for you.  

 

I believe that there are a lot of people with different expectations and wishes. And one device could not fulfill all expectations. More different devices just make different people more happy. And the more happiness in the world - the better 

 

Edited May 14 by propeler

[shwed]

FFBeast is not that big

[Mikestriken]

2 hours ago, propeler said:

if you do not plan mount it firmly on some stable surface or in rigid cockpit, if you do not use longer extensions and heavy grips, if you do not need extra "hardcore" in your flightsimming experience - probably FFBeast is just not a device for you.

So is it not possible to mount it to a (Monstertech) desk or chair mount? (Must it be mounted to the ground).

Edited May 14 by Mikestriken