VPForce Vs. FFBeast Comparison?

[VirusAM]

8 hours ago, propeler said:

Man. You opened my eyes! I was thinking that it is just because some trim applied at start! In next release of firmware I will implement center offset for modules with non symmetric travel on pitch forward and backward

Yeah...the Tomcat with the trim at 0,0,0 is not centered, and it is not a bug...they (Heatblur) implented the force feedback center like the real F-14, that has a goosneck style stick. Infact the stick column is tilted forward, but thanks to the offset the grip is in the center position. (just look at it in sim).
Of course in our simpits it is difficult to replicate the same, so we have a center position shifted too much forward.

If you want I can test your solution, you just need to make me jump the line for the FFBeast

Jokes aside we talked on discord some days ago I don't know if you recognized me.

At the moment I have a Rhino, which is a great base...but I would like more force in order to use TM grips and longer extensions without losing strenght.

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2024 by VirusAM

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, VirusAM said:

If you want I can test your solution, you just need to make me jump the line for the FFBeast

Jokes aside we talked on discord some days ago I don't know if you recognized me.

At the moment I have a Rhino, which is a great base...but I would like more force in order to use TM grips and longer extensions without losing strenght.

If you do upgrade, it would be great if you would give us a nice comparison review from a consumer's perspective.

[Red Yeti]

Which joystick handles can withstand the higher forces? Are there any experiences or recommendations for or against a certain grip?

[some1]

55 minutes ago, Red Yeti said:

Which joystick handles can withstand the higher forces?

I'd say the ones built from a single piece mold, like Realsimulator or Tianhang. They don't have a seam in the middle.

Most popular grips are built from two halves with a shaft wedged between them, all held together with tiny screws. So if pull very hard, it all wants to come apart. On top of that, Thrustmaster shafts are rather brittle, but there are aftermarket replacements available.

Edited May 15, 2024 by some1

[shwed]

5 часов назад, Red Yeti сказал:

Which joystick handles can withstand the higher forces? Are there any experiences or recommendations for or against a certain grip?

Thrustmaster grips, VKB MCG Ultimate, VPC Constellation ALPHA Prime - all grips metal

[Lt_Jaeger]

From what I read, that's the only thing I could not do with the beast compared to the Rhino. 

 

 

[Waxer]

I've just read through this thread.

The premise of the thread "Has anyone had experience of both FFBeast and FFRhino?" is a good one to ask. And indeed I would urge those involved in both projects to maybe loan samples of both devices to a well known and well respected DCS user (someone like RedKite) to review. Or me !

(I know that @Winger has experience of both devices and is currently selling kits of the Rhino to people. I did ask him about the comparison in a DM but he didn't give a direct answer and I didn't press him again for a comparison. But maybe he is willing to offer opinions?)

Personally I am more interested in the FFBeast. The higher potential loadings of this device mean that if I only load the device at 15-25% of its rated output and use it for 4 hours without break in Summer I am far less likely to run into potentially dangerous thermal loading problems. (Translation from engineer speak: fire). The idea of running a device at 75-100% rated load in a SIM room with my CPU and GPU kicking out 1kW of heat into the room during summer and me being too engrossed in DCS VR to notice until I smell smoke is not one that I favour. Now in FFRhino's defense the device does have a thermal cut off and a hardware mounted "kill" switch as far as I know. Can anyone with the Rhino confirm this? I've asked the FFBeast developer this and currently the device does not have this, but they are considering adding it in the future. I think this would be smart considering the high currents these devices use.

I understand DCS users asking direct and pointed questions when spending over $1k on a device such as this. We should ask questions. However I'd just suggest that people recognise how long it takes established peripheral companies like Thrustmaster or VKB to get off their a$$ and innovate: they move like reluctant snails. It is great that the community has engineers willing to share their innovations with the DCS community. And sure... it is a side gig for them from which they are making money, but the pricing offers big spending early adopters reasonable value considering what you are getting (not cheap, but decent value). Compare prices to Brunner to see what I mean.

If you don't want to be an early adopter but you are interested, then I suggest you sit on the sidelines and wait for the feedback from those of us that do receive these devices. And if you are an early adopter you need to understand that you are buying into an expensive workshop built experimental project that might be subject to ongoing development.

Edited May 15, 2024 by Waxer

[Aapje]

4 hours ago, Lt_Jaeger said:

From what I read, that's the only thing I could not do with the beast compared to the Rhino. 

What are you referrring to? I'm missing the context here.

[Aapje]

@Waxer

The Rhino does have overheating protection and there is a Finnish guy who has done a bunch of stress testing:

From what I've seen from reviews/experiences that others had, the temperature of the device (which is measured with a sensor) stabilizes once it gets into the protection regime. The issue that people have is that the overprotection cuts the force feedback strength, so the experience is not consistent between the max power and limited power state. So you can suddenly get a different experience during an intense dogfight, which seems very undesirable.

The Beast should not have this issue, which seems like a solid benefit, unless you want to run the Rhino with low power anyway, so it never gets into the protection regime, or you only fly planes with proper trimming, which seems to reduce the overheating issue to some or a large extent.

Quote

However I'd just suggest that people recognise how long it takes established peripheral companies like Thrustmaster or VKB to get off their a$$ and innovate: they move like reluctant snails.

It took Walmis and Propelor quite some time to work things out to get where they are now and they didn't do the work to get their designs ready for mass production, which itself can be a very long process.

I do think that with the big waiting list and the quality of the product so far, it would make a lot of sense for someone to start a company and get mass production going in China, which should cut costs quite a bit and which means that enough units get produced to serve the demand, which Walmis and Propelor seem unlikely to be able to achieve with their current way of working. It's a shame if many people miss out on a FFB stick due to lack of supply or because the price is too high.

I would prefer if Walmis and/or Propelor either start a company themselves (if they have the skills or can find people with the needed skills to run a company) or go work with/for one of the big companies to get mass production going. But please no Trustmaster, who are not the right company for this, for a bunch of reasons.

It could be a very good financial decision by Walmis and/or Propelor, with relatively little downside, because there are ways to avoid major financial risks, while potentially getting rich if the product sells well enough.

Edited May 15, 2024 by Aapje

[Lt_Jaeger]

The mounting. Already with the Rhino at its capacity. 

1 hour ago, Waxer said:

Now in FFRhino's defense the device does have a thermal cut off and a hardware mounted "kill" switch as far as I know.

Yeap, Rhino scales down the possible max force in relation to the motor temps. It throws off muscle memory a bit if cut in, but it will keep going. 

"Emergency" kill switch is there as well. I use it as main power switch. 

[shwed]

FFBeast has no heating problem, I use it for 4-5 hours, at room temperature 27-28C, force not change from heating

null

[Winger]

On 5/15/2024 at 5:39 PM, Waxer said:

I've just read through this thread.

The premise of the thread "Has anyone had experience of both FFBeast and FFRhino?" is a good one to ask. And indeed I would urge those involved in both projects to maybe loan samples of both devices to a well known and well respected DCS user (someone like RedKite) to review. Or me !

(I know that @Winger has experience of both devices and is currently selling kits of the Rhino to people. I did ask him about the comparison in a DM but he didn't give a direct answer and I didn't press him again for a comparison. But maybe he is willing to offer opinions?)

Personally I am more interested in the FFBeast. The higher potential loadings of this device mean that if I only load the device at 15-25% of its rated output and use it for 4 hours without break in Summer I am far less likely to run into potentially dangerous thermal loading problems. (Translation from engineer speak: fire). The idea of running a device at 75-100% rated load in a SIM room with my CPU and GPU kicking out 1kW of heat into the room during summer and me being too engrossed in DCS VR to notice until I smell smoke is not one that I favour. Now in FFRhino's defense the device does have a thermal cut off and a hardware mounted "kill" switch as far as I know. Can anyone with the Rhino confirm this? I've asked the FFBeast developer this and currently the device does not have this, but they are considering adding it in the future. I think this would be smart considering the high currents these devices use.

I understand DCS users asking direct and pointed questions when spending over $1k on a device such as this. We should ask questions. However I'd just suggest that people recognise how long it takes established peripheral companies like Thrustmaster or VKB to get off their a$$ and innovate: they move like reluctant snails. It is great that the community has engineers willing to share their innovations with the DCS community. And sure... it is a side gig for them from which they are making money, but the pricing offers big spending early adopters reasonable value considering what you are getting (not cheap, but decent value). Compare prices to Brunner to see what I mean.

If you don't want to be an early adopter but you are interested, then I suggest you sit on the sidelines and wait for the feedback from those of us that do receive these devices. And if you are an early adopter you need to understand that you are buying into an expensive workshop built experimental project that might be subject to ongoing development.

 

PM sent with my honest comparison of both bases/software.

Edited May 16, 2024 by Winger

[VirusAM]

PM sent with my honest comparison of both bases/software.

Can you share here in the public also?
Thanks

[motoadve]

3 hours ago, Winger said:

PM sent with my honest comparison of both bases/software.

 

Why not showing the comparison here? if it is an unbiased honest comparison.

[Winger]

5 hours ago, motoadve said:

Why not showing the comparison here? if it is an unbiased honest comparison.

Because i did only brief comparison. It would probably not fair without in depth testing.
What i can say openly is: No matter wich one you choose. you NEVER make a mistake!
Both are awesome.

 

[Waxer]

Guys, the points made echo pretty much the impressions that we have collectively already worked out for ourselves. And the main take away is that both devices are good and offer a big leap forwards. Personally I am still aiming to get the FFBeast once that becomes available to me. (I am currently on the waitlist for a prebuilt device rather than doing a kit or build your own version).

[Hiob]

One piece of thought for people that are thinking about getting either one, is the amount and way of individual modding/tuning the devices.

For me, who is fond of 3D-printing, the Rhino is more accessible. Building it even gave me ideas for a FFB conversion of my MFG pedals. Things like that would be much harder for me to do in wood or metal.

That could be the other way round for people that have metal workshop equipment of course. 

Either way. Even people who are not planning to do any DIY should be aware, that FFB requires some tinkering - at least you need to setup your profiles.

[MyCyJIbMaHuH]

 

[Aapje]

Looks great.

[Hiob]

It does. Nice!

[lxsapper]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:38 PM, Hiob said:

Ok, just (semi) finished my Rhino build (Thanks a lot to @Winger for his brilliant kit and patience with my stupid questions)….

I haven’t used it in DCS yet, but played around with it in the control software. Tested all the effects (spring, hold, inertia, friction etc….).

My conclusion so far, depending on the length of your extension - it has more than enough power. When I set spring force to max and try without an extension, I can barely move it against the motors.

I don’t have a comparison - but I know for sure that I probably won’t use the Rhino on max gain.

I would love to also test the Beast, but unfortunately that is not a viable option. The Rhino is expensive enough.

 

They have rather similar pricing if going for an assembled unit.

[Hiob]

On 5/24/2024 at 9:28 PM, lxsapper said:

They have rather similar pricing if going for an assembled unit.

Yeah, I know. Precisely the reason I won‘t get a second one just for comparison (even though I‘d like to)….. It‘s becoming expensive….

[corbu1]

Am 24.5.2024 um 19:49 schrieb MyCyJIbMaHuH:

 

Wow! That pedals make me excited!

[Winger]

On 5/24/2024 at 8:28 PM, lxsapper said:

They have rather similar pricing if going for an assembled unit.

Youre right. Diffrence is delivery time.
Kit comes within Partially preassembled kit comes within 2 weeks and VPForce Motor kit also.
Final assembly can be done within one evening.
I am not a mass producer. Therefor i dont get cheap prices for the parts  Even thou I would love to.

On 5/24/2024 at 7:49 PM, MyCyJIbMaHuH said:

 

Beautiful work. Looks amazing!

Edited May 27, 2024 by Winger

[lxsapper]

On 5/24/2024 at 6:49 PM, MyCyJIbMaHuH said:

 

By the way, who's building this version of the FFBeast? is it you MyCyJIbMaHuH?