Anyone still using MS or Logi FFB stick?

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Just curious. I want to try FFB for cheap. Any opinion would be appreciated.

Edited May 22, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Aapje]

Someone is selling it here: 

 

[wak04131]

Hopefully i can let you know in a few days, I just purchased one as i was intrigued to how it might work in DCS, If not i'll source some retro games for fun. Cost me £15 + postage in the UK

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

eBay UK are selling some a few times more than you have paid for. Thanks, looking for your review.

[wak04131]

Thanks i got mine from CEX in the UK, It's arriving today so hopefully i'll give you an update over the weekend. 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Good for you. It is out of stock now.

[MAXsenna]

On 5/22/2024 at 2:06 PM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

Just curious. I want to try FFB for cheap. Any opinion would be appreciated.

 

From time to time they show up here in Norway for 20-30€. Want me to grab one for you? 

[mikko.1842]

I'm still using my MS FFB2 (1999 or so). Works fine enough, but lacks a decent number of buttons. Average cost : 20-70€ in my country.

[MADLOU1]

I have two MS FFB2.  Been using it since they came out in 2001 or so.  I bought a spare one about 10 years ago on Ebay since they were not being made anymore.  I think they work great for flight sims.  

[wak04131]

I purchased one cheap but sadly i think it wasn't in a good condition, doesn't seem to centre correctly and feedback seems hit and miss. I haven't had much chance to play around with it to see if it can be calibrated correctly or if it's actually just passed it's best.

[Hiob]

48 minutes ago, wak04131 said:

I purchased one cheap but sadly i think it wasn't in a good condition, doesn't seem to centre correctly and feedback seems hit and miss. I haven't had much chance to play around with it to see if it can be calibrated correctly or if it's actually just passed it's best.

Have you done a basic windows calibration?

 

[MAXsenna]

Have you done a basic windows calibration?
 

Huge firmware deadzone makes them sloppy in the middle. Easily seen in joystick tester apps. If there was a way to hack the firmware to remove the deadzone and sloppiness, these sticks would still be great for helicopters with the resistor hack.

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[MADLOU1]

33 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Huge firmware deadzone makes them sloppy in the middle. Easily seen in joystick tester apps. If there was a way to hack the firmware to remove the deadzone and sloppiness, these sticks would still be great for helicopters with the resistor hack.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

both of mine work great especially with helos. 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

From time to time they show up here in Norway for 20-30€. Want me to grab one for you? 

Thank you for your kind offer Max, I have found a MS SW FFB 2 on eBay some time ago. Not very impressed by it, to be frank.

[MAXsenna]

both of mine work great especially with helos. 

Yes, they work pretty good with helps, as you seldom notice the deadzone because you're off center. Don't get me wrong! I love mine, I have five or six or so. About time I try the resistor mod I guess.

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[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

55 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Huge firmware deadzone makes them sloppy in the middle. Easily seen in joystick tester apps. If there was a way to hack the firmware to remove the deadzone and sloppiness, these sticks would still be great for helicopters with the resistor hack.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Any idea how?

[MAXsenna]

Thank you for your kind offer Max, I have found a MS SW FFB 2 on eBay some time ago. Not very impressed by it, to be frank.

Are you into modding?

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Any idea how?

Nope!

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[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Not an electronic know-how I am afraid.

And then I find this thread:

Mounting some 1 ohm resisters in parallel to the existing ones may not be that hard, but assembling it back is another story...

Edited July 9, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Rifter]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Huge firmware deadzone makes them sloppy in the middle.

Since I read this again and again and it sounds kind of generalised: Of course a lot of those devices are worn out. I had a whole collection of them and kept the best devices. But even with the most scrappy ones I had no game breaking dead zone, perhaps 2 or 3 mm deflection per axis on the mechanical side. But even then the device should convert every hint of movement into deflection, regardless of the wear and tear of the mechanical parts, because the sensors don't care about the wear and tear.
On the other hand your not the only one complaining about sloppiness around the centre - could you quantify your dead zone in mm? Just to give me an idea, what we are talking about?

[MADLOU1]

The new Moza FFB base and stick seems to be interesting.  Definitely new technology.  Would love to see how that compares to the MS FFb.  Im a big fan of their racing sim ffb bases.

[MAXsenna]

Since I read this again and again and it sounds kind of generalised: Of course a lot of those devices are worn out. I had a whole collection of them and kept the best devices. But even with the most scrappy ones I had no game breaking dead zone, perhaps 2 or 3 mm deflection per axis on the mechanical side. But even then the device should convert every hint of movement into deflection, regardless of the wear and tear of the mechanical parts, because the sensors don't care about the wear and tear.
On the other hand your not the only one complaining about sloppiness around the centre - could you quantify your dead zone in mm? Just to give me an idea, what we are talking about?

I did read your other post about it a couple of weeks ago. Now, to be fair I didn't believe about the deadzone when I first heard about this from another user on this forum. Can't remember whom. I have opened up several of my FBB2s and there are no wear and tear in any of them. The cogs move with the slightest touch, and I assume the pots too. Didn't dig that far deep. I did discover that it had a deadzone when I attached an extension, (≈30cm),to it, and when I move it with one finger, I can move it about 15-20mm, maybe more, before any reaction can be seen, like in DXtweak. That might not sound like much, while in AAR it does make difference, and I get prone to PIOs, while it's a blast in helicopters, because the stick is seldom in the center anyway.
I came late to the party regarding this stick. Probably got my first one three years ago or so. I was a little disappointed regarding the sloppiness, which actually shifts around when you trim in a helicopter. I read somewhere that in an old app, (I managed to find the CD ISO somewhere online, but haven't bothered to test it yet, as it requires Win98/Win2K. Heard it was still working on Vista), that you could change the deadzone and "remove" that sloppiness, but it unfortunately was not saved in the hardware. I might contact an old contact that cracked my first Xbox back in 2001, maybe he could have a go at the firmware. Because then the stick would be awesome, even if it doesn't have the same power as today's standard.
Cheers!



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[Rifter]

Wow - that’s a quite long extension. Is that aluminum?

My FFB2 looks very similar to this mod:

I slaughtered a vintage Thrustmaster Top Gun joystick from 1996 in mint condition to get a B8 grip (probably cost me a few karma points). I also applied the resistor mod which is important when using an extension. However, there is zero deadzone on it. As soon as one of the axes of the gimbal moves/rotates, the potentiometer of that axis will create a signal. As long as there is no dying potentiometer there should be no deadzone. Therefore I'm still a bit confused by your observations on your device. When you say you have 15-20mm deadzone, than you mean the top of your extension? How much movement is noticeable at the gimbal?
 
When I played around to decide how to best mod the FFB2, I also realised that too much weight for the grip and the extension creates some issues. Especially a cranked extension shifts the COG away from the joystick centre and creates a moment on the gimbal. Did you try a with an uncranked shorter extension (20cm)?

 

Edited July 9, 2024 by Rifter

[MAXsenna]

Well, this thread inspired me to test AAR in the Phantom with it. The forces are week obviously, but the effects are awesome. The deadzone is very noticeable, so one has to work the stick and anticipate more. Even so, I tanked full tanks and two bags without any disconnects, so the stick is good. I really ought to try the resistor mod one day, and maybe add some RC dampers.

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[MAXsenna]

Wow - that’s a quite long extension. Is that aluminum?
My FFB2 looks very similar to this mod:

I slaughtered a vintage Thrustmaster Top Gun joystick from 1996 in mint condition to get a B8 grip (probably cost me a few karma points). I also applied the resistor mod which is important when using an extension. However, there is zero deadzone on it. As soon as one of the axes of the gimbal moves/rotates, the potentiometer of that axis will create a signal. As long as there is no dying potentiometer there should be no deadzone. Therefore I'm still a bit confused by your observations on your device. When you say you have 15-20mm deadzone, than you mean the top of your extension? How much movement is noticeable at the gimbal?
 
When I played around to decide how to best mod the FFB2, I also realised that too much weight for the grip and the extension creates some issues. Especially a cranked extension shifts the COG away from the joystick centre and creates a moment on the gimbal. Did you try a with an uncranked shorter extension (20cm)?
 

The extention is actually an old Look slalom pole. So yes, aluminium. I was going to put an old TM F-22 grip with Cougar electronics in it, but life got in the way.
15-20mm at the top of the extension.
So. You're saying that in the Controls Indicator in DCS. If you put your fingers on top of the grip, move it a few mm, you can see reaction to the deflection in DCS? If yes, I must try some of my other sticks.
Cheers!

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[Rifter]

13 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

If you put your fingers on top of the grip, move it a few mm, you can see reaction to the deflection in DCS?

 

Roger that!

Just as an addition to clear up any misunderstandings:
The top of my grip has a height of 30cm (measured from the gimbal). Basically I shifted the original grip upwards by one grip length. With the resistor mod the forces are doubled. The FFB-forces at the new grip position roughly corresponds to the previous unmodded state. The new grip (B8 replica from old joystick) is very light (all plastic) and the extension is a short aluminum pipe with 16mm diameter. I consider this to be the maximum change without losing the original properties.
From this it can be seen: The FFB2 is rather weak-chested, even with resistor mod there is not plenty of headroom to handle long extensions and heavy grips.

About that old app which came originally with the FFB2: That piece of software just adds pre-tensioning by applying engine forces before the grip is even moved. You can do the same with simFFB which still works fine. You have to deactivate FFB in DCS of course, because control has to remain at simFFB.