How to win at BFM in the Mighty F-4E Phantom

[Kev2go]

On 6/14/2024 at 8:23 AM, SgtPappy said:

Really good video.

I think a lot of us are really just used to turn fighting but if you look at it, US planes generally excelled in speed ever since WW2 and the main strategy since then has been to drain your opponents of speed and drop on them like a sledgehammer.

Mustangs, Lightnings, Thunderbolts, Hellcats and Corsairs did this in the Pacific vs Zeros. Bf 109s and Fw 190s used these strategies vs Spitfires. Then Australian Spitfire pilots had to learn the hard way to do the same vs the Zero as well...

On 6/14/2024 at 8:23 AM, SgtPappy said:

A lot of us are now in this stage with the F-4 since most of us are used to the extreme maneuverability and highly-rewarding 1 circle strategies learned in 4th gen jets where reliable HOBS and radar-homing missiles punish anyone trying to 2 circle or extend. Energy fighting is STILL dogfighting, but the idea that 1 circling IS dogfighting seems to be more persasive among jet pilots online.

IM not sure this can entirely be blamed on people being used to post cold war 21st century upgraded gen 4's. Looking at the Vietnam experience IRL lots of pilots had issues trying to adjust to dealing with slower but more nimbler soviet aircraft,. Part of the issue was training. to learn to energy fight better, but even that was seen as a stopgap solution since the veterans of Vietnam had in turn helped define the trends and requirements of what would become 4th generation designs, and the real solution were technological, better radars, missiles, and aeronautical redesigns to make aircraft be more maneuverable so they could win both 2 circle and 1 circle turn fights. Energy was not forgotten as most 4th gens were supposed to have 1:1 or greater T/W ratio, meaning they were even better in the energy department relative to thier predecessors. 

 

https://etd.auburn.edu/xmlui/handle/10415/595

 

On 6/14/2024 at 8:23 AM, SgtPappy said:

I'm convinced that F-4 pilots need to go back to the WW2 mindset and use missiles and radar as bonuses, not the primary means of winning a fight.

 

turn fighting is rewarding even  doing guns only in a Jet like the F14A tomcat, at least against " gen 3". You feel very maneuverable against them but you still have  enough T/W to regain your energy fast enough, and not feel underpowered slug. IMO  the F14A only ever felt underpowered when compared to gen 4's.

 

Edited June 17, 2024 by Kev2go

[Kalasnkova74]

29 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

IM not sure this can entirely be blamed on people being used to post cold war 21st century upgraded gen 4's.

 

This was a problem many of us here saw coming & pointed out months ago. In real life, people who’d spend careers flying F-8s, F-100s, F-104s and similar transitioned to the F-4; followed by the 4th generation “teen series” we all know. 
 

Going from old school iron bombs, bomber killer missiles and “don’t fly like that in the pattern Or Else” coffin corner aerodynamics to the Gucci tech of later stuff is simple- by design. Modern DCS players are transitioning in the opposite technological direction, and IMO it’s significantly harder.  They’re also discovering via osmosis why capabilities they’re used to in modern fighter jets were invented- because they’re experiencing the complications built into the F-4E. 

[Kev2go]

20 minutes ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

This was a problem many of us here saw coming & pointed out months ago. In real life, people who’d spend careers flying F-8s, F-100s, F-104s and similar transitioned to the F-4; followed by the 4th generation “teen series” we all know. 
 

Going from old school iron bombs, bomber killer missiles and “don’t fly like that in the pattern Or Else” coffin corner aerodynamics to the Gucci tech of later stuff is simple- by design. Modern DCS players are transitioning in the opposite technological direction, and IMO it’s significantly harder.  They’re also discovering via osmosis why capabilities they’re used to in modern fighter jets were invented- because they’re experiencing the complications built into the F-4E. 

Yeah I think going backwards players can more greatly appreciate early 4th gen, like F14 alot more. Never mind 21st century gucci tech of the other teen fighters, cold war gen 4 still feel like super planes compared to the likes of the era of aircraft like the F4 . Me and a human WSO flew the phantom got annoyed about challenges of the F4 decided to take a break. Hopped back into F14A ( since that particular CW server had that on team blue as the most modern aircraft) and it was literally night and day difference.  I got double ace in 2 sorties in spite both of us being very rusty on the tomcat. Growling sidewinder was 100% correct, that when contrasted to the F4 the F14 feels like its an F22 raptor, although granted the F4E is more versatile in its air to surface roles.

Edited June 17, 2024 by Kev2go

[SgtPappy]

10 hours ago, Kev2go said:

IM not sure this can entirely be blamed on people being used to post cold war 21st century upgraded gen 4's. Looking at the Vietnam experience IRL lots of pilots had issues trying to adjust to dealing with slower but more nimbler soviet aircraft,. Part of the issue was training. to learn to energy fight better, but even that was seen as a stopgap solution since the veterans of Vietnam had in turn helped define the trends and requirements of what would become 4th generation designs, and the real solution were technological, better radars, missiles, and aeronautical redesigns to make aircraft be more maneuverable so they could win both 2 circle and 1 circle turn fights. Energy was not forgotten as most 4th gens were supposed to have 1:1 or greater T/W ratio, meaning they were even better in the energy department relative to thier predecessors. 

 

https://etd.auburn.edu/xmlui/handle/10415/595

 

 

turn fighting is rewarding even  doing guns only in a Jet like the F14A tomcat, at least against " gen 3". You feel very maneuverable against them but you still have  enough T/W to regain your energy fast enough, and not feel underpowered slug. IMO  the F14A only ever felt underpowered when compared to gen 4's.

 

 

For sure, I was more talking about my personal experience and of those of some of my friends. We had to rewire our brains and I think that's the case for lots of people. The temptation to pull for a missile shot is often all too real and it's not as much of a kill shot as it would be with newer missiles and newer aircraft.

[Kalasnkova74]

2 minutes ago, SgtPappy said:

For sure, I was more talking about my personal experience and of those of some of my friends. We had to rewire our brains and I think that's the case for lots of people. The temptation to pull for a missile shot is often all too real and it's not as much of a kill shot as it would be with newer missiles and newer aircraft.

Perhaps the accomplishments of pilots like then-Colonel Olds can be weighted more accurately now, with some appreciation of just how not-advanced their tech was. The first F-4B/F-4C Phantom IIs had AIM-9Bs and generation I Sparrows - period . Had HB released those versions instead of the later F-4E we have, the transition from modern kit would have been too much. 

[Kev2go]

7 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

Perhaps the accomplishments of pilots like then-Colonel Olds can be weighted more accurately now, with some appreciation of just how not-advanced their tech was. The first F-4B/F-4C Phantom IIs had AIM-9Bs and generation I Sparrows - period . Had HB released those versions instead of the later F-4E we have, the transition from modern kit would have been too much. 

Yes indeed. The navy pilots were not as challenged  I think since aim9ds were already were entering operational service at the start of operation rolling thunder, wheras air force didnt get first aim9 improvement till around 1968 with aim9e which of course was still inferior to the navy's aim9d.  Not to mention the navy's f4j which entered service around the same time as f4e had a pulse doppler radar.

Edited June 17, 2024 by Kev2go

[PawlaczGMD]

Looks like this thread was derailed by a pointless discussion about the AI and their FM, and other stuff. Not much here about how to actually win BFM against real players...

[Elf1606688794]

1 hour ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Looks like this thread was derailed by a pointless discussion about the AI and their FM, and other stuff. Not much here about how to actually win BFM against real players...

It's important to know how to win in the Phantom whether it's against the AI or actual, real live, players.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Looks like this thread was derailed by a pointless discussion about the AI and their FM, and other stuff. Not much here about how to actually win BFM against real players...

Oh no, some people play a game differently to me.

[PawlaczGMD]

5 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

It's important to know how to win in the Phantom whether it's against the AI or actual, real live, players.

With how simple the AI is, and how broken the Mig-21 AI FM is, these are two different worlds. I'm not trying to disrespect people who are playing against AI, but I just don't think you can learn much this way.

The AI doesn't obey physics, so many BFM concepts simply don't work well against it. It also doesn't do much interesting stuff, and just reacts to you in a simple way. 

I'm improving at 10x the rate since I started flying on ECW and dogfighting servers. It's also more fun. From the Mig-21 side, so far it's pretty easy to kill the F-4. Most people start rating you and lose when they get slow. They seem to struggle a lot to use the Sparrow. I'd like to know what actually works well from the F-4  side, as I'm slowly learning to use it too. When I start up the instant action BFM against the 21, I can just 2 circle it or really do whatever, and win. I know this will not work against players.

[Kalasnkova74]

1 hour ago, PawlaczGMD said:

With how simple the AI is, and how broken the Mig-21 AI FM is, these are two different worlds. I'm not trying to disrespect people who are playing against AI, but I just don't think you can learn much this way.

The AI doesn't obey physics, so many BFM concepts simply don't work well against it. It also doesn't do much interesting stuff, and just reacts to you in a simple way. 

I'm improving at 10x the rate since I started flying on ECW and dogfighting servers. It's also more fun. From the Mig-21 side, so far it's pretty easy to kill the F-4. Most people start rating you and lose when they get slow. They seem to struggle a lot to use the Sparrow. I'd like to know what actually works well from the F-4  side, as I'm slowly learning to use it too. When I start up the instant action BFM against the 21, I can just 2 circle it or really do whatever, and win. I know this will not work against players.

One could argue the same about human opponents. If you shoot down a player in a server, is it because you were that skilled- or was it because you attacked a newbie who just downloaded the game 30 minutes ago? 
 

Say what one will about the AI, but it’s a consistent opponent we can all benchmark against. 

[PawlaczGMD]

53 minutes ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

One could argue the same about human opponents. If you shoot down a player in a server, is it because you were that skilled- or was it because you attacked a newbie who just downloaded the game 30 minutes ago? 
 

Say what one will about the AI, but it’s a consistent opponent we can all benchmark against. 

Even a noob player obeys physics. But I'm not even arguing against fighting AI. I just think that focusing on AI specifically derails the discussion to be about AI rather than BFM.

 

[=475FG= Dawger]

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

With how simple the AI is, and how broken the Mig-21 AI FM is, these are two different worlds. I'm not trying to disrespect people who are playing against AI, but I just don't think you can learn much this way.

The AI doesn't obey physics, so many BFM concepts simply don't work well against it. It also doesn't do much interesting stuff, and just reacts to you in a simple way. 

I'm improving at 10x the rate since I started flying on ECW and dogfighting servers. It's also more fun. From the Mig-21 side, so far it's pretty easy to kill the F-4. Most people start rating you and lose when they get slow. They seem to struggle a lot to use the Sparrow. I'd like to know what actually works well from the F-4  side, as I'm slowly learning to use it too. When I start up the instant action BFM against the 21, I can just 2 circle it or really do whatever, and win. I know this will not work against players.

In the beginning of your post the AI doesn’t obey physics and BFM doesn’t work. At the end, it doesn’t matter what you do, you always beat the AI. 

Funny. 
 

NOTE: AI has four skill levels. ROOKIE, TRAINED, VETERAN And ACE. 

I imagine instant action is Rookie. 
 

In any case, if you aren’t easily winning against Rookie and Trained, you need some help with BFM. Veteran and Ace are tougher. Few human opponents fly this precisely but they are still predictable. 
 

Humans are always more interesting to fight. 
 

 

Edited June 19, 2024 by =475FG= Dawger

[PawlaczGMD]

1 minute ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

In the beginning of your post the AI doesn’t obey physics and BFM doesn’t work. At the end, it doesn’t matter what you do, you always beat the AI. 

Funny. 
 

 

Where's the contradiction? The AI Mig-21 doesn't obey physics/energy conservation. Therefore, many BFM principles will not work as intended. This doesn't necessary mean it's hard to beat...

[Kalasnkova74]

17 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Even a noob player obeys physics.

 

Perhaps. But that’s the rub- if you’re King Kong of a server, is it because of your superior skill - or were you just fortunate enough to play against relatively inexperienced players in that session? On the flip side, if you’re losing is it because you’re inexperienced relative to your opposition? After all, even newbies in F-22s lose to pros in T-38s. 
 

Yet if you consistently beat the toughest AI- accurate physics or not- that’s a skill benchmark which is consistent, in a way random sessions against random humans of unknown skill is not. 

[Elf1606688794]

4 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

With how simple the AI is, and how broken the Mig-21 AI FM is, these are two different worlds. I'm not trying to disrespect people who are playing against AI, but I just don't think you can learn much this way.

The AI doesn't obey physics, so many BFM concepts simply don't work well against it. It also doesn't do much interesting stuff, and just reacts to you in a simple way. 

I'm improving at 10x the rate since I started flying on ECW and dogfighting servers. It's also more fun. From the Mig-21 side, so far it's pretty easy to kill the F-4. Most people start rating you and lose when they get slow. They seem to struggle a lot to use the Sparrow. I'd like to know what actually works well from the F-4  side, as I'm slowly learning to use it too. When I start up the instant action BFM against the 21, I can just 2 circle it or really do whatever, and win. I know this will not work against players.

You won't learn how to fight players by fighting the AI, I think that one goes without saying.

With the Sparrow there are certain things that I keep forgetting to do, like centering the radar before I try to lock a target directly in front of me. Little things that will come naturally with practice.

[PawlaczGMD]

2 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

You won't learn how to fight players by fighting the AI, I think that one goes without saying.

With the Sparrow there are certain things that I keep forgetting to do, like centering the radar before I try to lock a target directly in front of me. Little things that will come naturally with practice.

Yeah, I have tried the BFM vs Mig-21 instant mission 10 times, and I can never get a lock for a head-on sparrow shot. I can't even get a good lock for guns from rear aspect. I need to study up on Jester usage with the radar. 

Meanwhile, the Mig-21 can get a head-on lock and shot with the R3-R pretty reliably. The radar must be super simplified, I can't imagine that the Mig radar was actually that much better...

[irisono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb PawlaczGMD:

Yeah, I have tried the BFM vs Mig-21 instant mission 10 times, and I can never get a lock for a head-on sparrow shot. I can't even get a good lock for guns from rear aspect. I need to study up on Jester usage with the radar. 

Meanwhile, the Mig-21 can get a head-on lock and shot with the R3-R pretty reliably. The radar must be super simplified, I can't imagine that the Mig radar was actually that much better...

The catastrophic state of AI-FM is nothing new. It has been criticized by many users in this forum for years. The quality of the AI is fundamental for an air combat simulator because it affects many areas of the simulation - including the area BFM F4 vs Mig-21. For this reason and because ED has not taken this topic seriously for years, it has to be discussed everywhere and again and again. I see a certain disillusionment since your first post on this topic. I hope some insight has set in. I think you are on the right track.

[HWasp]

14 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Even a noob player obeys physics. But I'm not even arguing against fighting AI. I just think that focusing on AI specifically derails the discussion to be about AI rather than BFM.

 

You are right about the 21AI, people just really, really like to argue here, even if it makes no sense.

I'd suggest trying the MiG-23 AI instead, that is not doing extreme things, maybe a bit too easy, but certainly good for gunnery practice.

........................................

For me the main and only rule for the F-4 is to never get below 400 kts. 

I think the bleed rate below 400 is the big trap in the F-4, even pulling through vertical on the way down in a loop, it's easy to turn all the energy into vortices instead of turn rate.

[Kalasnkova74]

2 hours ago, HWasp said:

For me the main and only rule for the F-4 is to never get below 400 kts. 

I understand the general wisdom of this sentiment. Yet realistically we must fight this airplane at all speeds, not just the convenient ones.

Contrary to what some believe, the F-4E can be flown and fought successfully at low speed against similarly low speed bandits. The Israelis managed it often enough against Arab MiGs.  It requires switching off the yaw SAS and getting familiar with the rudder pedals, but one can get this big bird to dance at low speed against a bandit at similar low energy state - if necessary.

[HWasp]

3 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

I understand the general wisdom of this sentiment. Yet realistically we must fight this airplane at all speeds, not just the convenient ones.

Contrary to what some believe, the F-4E can be flown and fought successfully at low speed against similarly low speed bandits. The Israelis managed it often enough against Arab MiGs.  It requires switching off the yaw SAS and getting familiar with the rudder pedals, but one can get this big bird to dance at low speed against a bandit at similar low energy state - if necessary.

Of course you can fight at low speeds, just the DCS 21bis can do it better, so you'll be at a disadvantage. 

I think, it's better to actually test in DCS, what really works, instead of going after history. Results won't be the same for multiple reasons...

 

So, to back this up, I've just quickly made 2 tracks, with a simple maneuvre sequence: Start at 400 kts, cash in energy with a 360 deg horizontal turn to enter that low speed regime we are discussing. Do a full loop starting from low speed, then transition into another 360 on the deck.

Based on the stories, you'll probably think, that the MiG-21 will be at a disadvantage and maybe even fall out of the sky going vertical at that low speed, but in DCS, it completes this sequence almost 10 seconds quicker, than the F-4 will (F-4 60%fuel 2 heaters, MiG-21 80% fuel + 2 R3S), flown at red line AoA all the time. That is a big difference, and I didn't even use the flaps on the 21... 

So it doesn't matter, how well you can control the F-4, you just don't want to go there in general.

Against the Mirage F-1 it's quite even, so it might be worth a try sometimes because the F-1 accelerates much worse.

F-4_seq.trk MiG21_seq.trk

[Elf1606688794]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:09 AM, _BringTheReign_ said:

Making MiG 21's and Mirages run out of energy and fall out of the sky is a form of entertainment I never new existed when I was flying the F-5.

We used to call that a rope and you just needed to sucker your opponent into following you up. I was pretty good at making it seem like you had a chance. I had to know when it was ok to knife fight and when it wasn't. How far can I push my ITR trying to get a shot? It was an exhilarating way to fight and it never got old.

In that game I flew the F4U-4 Corsair and if I can rope in the Phantom, well, I might have just found my ride.

[Snappy]

On 6/19/2024 at 3:37 AM, Kalasnkova74 said:

Perhaps. But that’s the rub- if you’re King Kong of a server, is it because of your superior skill - or were you just fortunate enough to play against relatively inexperienced players in that session? On the flip side, if you’re losing is it because you’re inexperienced relative to your opposition? After all, even newbies in F-22s lose to pros in T-38s. 
 

Yet if you consistently beat the toughest AI- accurate physics or not- that’s a skill benchmark which is consistent, in a way random sessions against random humans of unknown skill is not. 

Hm no.Its a benchmark, yes, but not so much in the skill of BFM flying. It just says you know how the AI works and how to reliably trick/exploit it . It’s not that difficult, since the AI in DCS is very dumb and predictable.

That the Israelis had success in the low speed regime with their F-4s likely had a lot to do with the huge disparity in training&profiency compared to their opponents. 
It’s like the exchange ratio for the F-15.The hundred something to 0 sounds super impressive at first glance, but it completely ignores the opposition’s equipment and training .

Had it have to fight against a near-peer or peer adversary also equipped with F-15s or something similar that exchange ratio would look a lot different.

That is not to say the Israelis aren’t high quality pilots or the F-15 is not a very capable air to air fighter.

But it’s useful to look at things in context.

Regardless of that I agree that it’s good to strive to be able to fly the aircraft well in all regimes , not just the most favourable ones.

Edited June 21, 2024 by Snappy

[=475FG= Dawger]

The Phantom will get very slow, very fast. You can force an overshoot doing this, which can keep you alive. 
 

However, once you are this slow, you are going to be seriously vulnerable for quite a long time and recovery might take a lot more altitude than you have available. 

[Kirk66]

On 6/19/2024 at 1:49 PM, Kalasnkova74 said:

I understand the general wisdom of this sentiment. Yet realistically we must fight this airplane at all speeds, not just the convenient ones.

Contrary to what some believe, the F-4E can be flown and fought successfully at low speed against similarly low speed bandits. The Israelis managed it often enough against Arab MiGs.  It requires switching off the yaw SAS and getting familiar with the rudder pedals, but one can get this big bird to dance at low speed against a bandit at similar low energy state - if necessary.

Why turn off yaw stab? Roll stab of course - it's called for in the TO for a good reason, but IRL yaw was never turned off. If it's helping in the game it's a bug.

Vulture