Making the new stick input lag optional

[Tiromir]

Dear Aerges,

  The F1 has slowly but steadily become my favourite aircraft in DCS. Patch 2.9.6.57650 has seen a number of changes to the Mirage F1's flight model. I am grateful for all of these, as the FM truly is the heart of any aircraft's simulation, and I believe it a domain that can hardly get too much polish.

  Among these changes, there is one that stands out to me:

Quote

Added control stick lag to model the speed movement limitations in the real aircraft

  I wish for this change to be reverted, or made optional, as it stands as an artificial delay between player inputs and how they're translated to the aircraft. It makes the light fighter and strike craft that the F1 is significantly more sluggish in any combat manoeuvre context, to a point that I just don't recognise it compared to its pre-existing state. This change just feels like it makes any flying of the F1 under pressure blunt and haphazard.

  Secondly, and less importantly, outside of the interface between pilot and aircraft, it also harms the F1's competitiveness, as I don't believe any other DCS modules have such delays, or at least not to this extent.

 

  I'd like to know more about this change. What "speed movement limitations" is it meant to reflect from the real aircraft's behaviour? Is it a hard set limitation to how mucht eh F1's stick can be moved at a time, or rather a difficulty, a required force?

 

Thank you for all your work.

[fausete]

Hi,

First of all I have to apologise because that description in the changelog is quite inaccurate. The real addition is a maximum stick displacement speed, which means that smaller corrections (and therefore fine/precise control) are completely unaffected.

This is a real feature of the aircraft, which we confirmed with SMEs and by testing a real pressurised system. Simply put, the fastest the speed of the stick, the greatest the reaction force, and thus, in practice a sort of 'maximum flight stick displacement speed' is present.

With a regular joystick, adding this maximum displacement speed limitation makes the aircraft control match its real counterpart much more closely than not having it.

From the top of my head, other modules like the F-4 or the MiG-29 also have similar implementations (don't fully quote me on this as I would have to retest it to be sure).

[Tiromir]

11 hours ago, fausete said:

Hi,

First of all I have to apologise because that description in the changelog is quite inaccurate. The real addition is a maximum stick displacement speed, which means that smaller corrections (and therefore fine/precise control) are completely unaffected.

This is a real feature of the aircraft, which we confirmed with SMEs and by testing a real pressurised system. Simply put, the fastest the speed of the stick, the greatest the reaction force, and thus, in practice a sort of 'maximum flight stick displacement speed' is present.

With a regular joystick, adding this maximum displacement speed limitation makes the aircraft control match its real counterpart much more closely than not having it.

From the top of my head, other modules like the F-4 or the MiG-29 also have similar implementations (don't fully quote me on this as I would have to retest it to be sure).

  Thanks for your explanation. The aircraft just feels so different in BFM to what it used to be, I was really taken aback by how that delay (on top of the sideslip induced roll) affected the aircraft's behaviour in the context I prefer to use it. I'm weirdly sad that you guys have done good work this time, as it kinda goes against my personal use of the F1.

  I guess it's back to 2022 when you released the F1 in the first place, learning how to work around the airframe's weaknesses and gitting gud.

[fausete]

Hi, so there are some adjustments coming to the pitch behaviour in the next update that might make it a bit more to your liking.

Just to be clear, the performance of the aircraft (acceleration, turn rate...) is still the same as it was before the update and has been unchanged for a good while.

[Tango3B]

4 hours ago, Tiromir said:

  Thanks for your explanation. The aircraft just feels so different in BFM to what it used to be, I was really taken aback by how that delay (on top of the sideslip induced roll) affected the aircraft's behaviour in the context I prefer to use it. I'm weirdly sad that you guys have done good work this time, as it kinda goes against my personal use of the F1.

  I guess it's back to 2022 when you released the F1 in the first place, learning how to work around the airframe's weaknesses and gitting gud.

Hey. I recommend playing around with the curve settings for your stick. Personally, I had to slightly adjust my curves for the X/Y-axis (roll/pitch). But as fausete already pointed out, the overall performance is absolutely not affected by these changes. Yes, it might feel inconvenient to adjust the said curves since you were pretty much used to the "feeling" of the F1 you had before these recent changes. I get that, we had a couple of changes since release actually. But keep in mind that these changes basically made the aircraft more realistic every single time. You will find a new comfy setting, though. Just play around with the curve values - the required changes are actually not that drastic.

[BJ55]

I'm using linear axis and the maximum stick displacement speed seems quite spot on, really like it! (without FFB it's easy to exceed real life displacement speeds)

[fausete]

Hi, just to add something more: on top of the stick speed limitation, the AMEDEE curve (internal pitch curve) was increased, which probably has had a significant effect on the 'feeling' of the aircraft.

Another factor that some of you have pointed out and we have noticed a lot is that, often, changes to controls or handling are perceived as the performance being decreased or the aircraft being 'nerfed'. This is probably because it takes time to adjust to the new behaviour and applying the old muscle memory actions doesn't result in the same outcomes.

[Loukuins]

On 7/27/2024 at 5:44 PM, Tango3B said:

Hey. I recommend playing around with the curve settings for your stick. Personally, I had to slightly adjust my curves for the X/Y-axis (roll/pitch). But as fausete already pointed out, the overall performance is absolutely not affected by these changes. Yes, it might feel inconvenient to adjust the said curves since you were pretty much used to the "feeling" of the F1 you had before these recent changes. I get that, we had a couple of changes since release actually. But keep in mind that these changes basically made the aircraft more realistic every single time. You will find a new comfy setting, though. Just play around with the curve values - the required changes are actually not that drastic.

With what fausete said, and also how the aircraft is made you shouldn't need to apply any curve on your joystick since there is already a system in the aircraft that apply a curve in the aircraft, it's a mechanical relay that increase the sensibility of the flight controls (at around 1°30) just like a curve in your axis controls. It's called AMEDEE in the Mirage F1 so if you want the real feel of the aircraft you should remove your curve and use the one gave by the aircraft. (mechanically it's just some gears that offset a mouvement and so it increase the mouvement by the distance, this is VERY simplified and I hope I'm not wrong).

On top of that you have a system that "fake" forces on the stick to give the pilot a feedback of the aircraft, and it has a set force by the amount of mouvement you make and can affect the feeling of the performances of the aircraft. It's very hard to simulate all of those systems that are a whole and cannot have some stuff removed or missing.

So yeah you will increase the effect of each change on the flight controls if you add on top of the curve applied by the aircraft.

[fausete]

@Loukuins thanks for the contribution, you are very much correct with everything.

Basically the feeling of the aircraft is much more dependent on how the control system is modelled than what is usually assumed. As you said, modelling the force retribution system (ARTHUR and dashpot) is not easy, especially for non-FFB sticks.

Also, having the AMEDEE means that less curve might be needed in comparison with other modules but it's something each user should still configure according to their needs and preferences.

[grim_reaper68]

Hi

First of all, thanks for updating the F1 so well. I just want to make you a feedback  about the flight controls. Since the update, it's quiet easier to make AAR, as the controls are smoother arround the center. That's a great point! And in fact, the transition is a little bit to hard between the  center position of the stick, and the max position. Especially on the pitch axis (due to AMEDEE). I'm not an IRL pilot, but I had the chance to make a couple of hours on the Mirage F1 CT simulator in Colmar Meyenheim, when I've made my military service. As I worked with the pilots of the RC 2/30 Normandie-Niemèn, some of them let me use the time they didn't use in the SIM. I know it's mostly not representative of the real one, but, as you told about the FFB (what I can imagine is hard to tranfer to non FFB sticks), the stick was going harder as more as you pull on it. I don't how it works in DCS, but maybe it would be possible to make a curve for non FFB, and another for FFB sticks. By the way, as I sat in the sim for the first time (I had a lot hours in simulation games before, so I knew how to basically fly the F1), the pilot explains me that the pitch trim, was also use as an "override". So you could have the stick fully pulled, you could add more pitch by using the trim switch, without having any influence of the neutral position. As told, I made some flight using this "overide", and as I put the stick in the neutral position, the aircraft was flying straight, no need to touch the trim pitch to level it. So maybe It could be implemented too. 

I hope my explanation are understandable, and may be confirmed by IRL F1 pilots, as I never had the chance to fly in one of the real F1 (the F1B cames couples of years after I ended my duty). 

Continue make our dreams come true with this Great Module you make. Thanks for all.