LRM 2.0 Released!

[RedTiger]

ah forget about it... obviously some just don't get it

 

If I may, I think Kuky has a point. Keep in mind that I do not play multiplayer, but do like LRM. Although he did mention things calling the realism into question, I think he's arguing more about the principle of LRM. Again, he does have a valid point.

 

First off, please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that some are saying that LRM is fast becoming a standard thing on all the popular servers? If not, just assume for a second that it eventually will be.

 

LOMAC was what it was for several years. The "principle" problem for some would be if this really does become the standard rule set for most servers. There are a handful of people who are not ED changing LOMAC and you have to take their word for it that this it is more realistic and "better". They say it is modular but really you're at the mercy of the person running the server as to what options they use. They could potentially just be lazy and apply the whole thing, not bothering to actually read the info and take a poll of what features people want.

 

Now for some, their radar doesn't do what it used to in their plane of choice and they are understandably upset. When they voice this concern to the LRM guys they get told by someone who has very little truly verifiable authority on the subject (other than cross-referencing their claims vs. your own research!), somone who isn't even a developer of the sim, that their newly gimped radar is actually more realistic. They should just suck it up and deal that their favorite server has adopted these changes. Maybe they should go play HAWX if they want to continue using their arcade game tactics and exploits.

 

Maybe the LRM person is right about the fact that their gimped radar is closer to reality than it was before. However, it is difficult for some to accept this after all this time LOMAC has been this way from Mr. Internet "Says it is so" guy who could really be anyone or anything. Again, it is the principle of the thing, IMO. I like LRM -- although I have only tried in in the F-15 so far -- but I can see where others would not because of this.

Edited July 2, 2009 by RedTiger

[RvEYoda]

well if you dislike some feature or have a question about it, I have maintained

that the only thing you need to do is ask. Just ask "what do you take this

from?"

 

or "How does this work?"

 

or "Where can I find the FAQ/readme/explanations of the mod?" (first page of this thread!)

 

but NOT like this :

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=711277&postcount=211

- This kind of post has IMO absolute no constructive contents.

 

And certainly not calling the mod bad for something it doesn't have anything to do with.

At least you can ask me "is this caused by LRM/could be caused by ?"....

Then you can say "That is wrong".

 

not "LHC failed cause of LRM".

For example some squads (no names mentioned) are sending me bug repports and issues

where they feel some things are wrong, or could be made better.

This is an excellent way to give input. LRM is not set in stone, as I have said before,

further small tweaks can be made if we get a good source that something is wrong.

But be certain saying "This is wrong cause he said so" will not do. you will need to understand

the process behind the feature (which I can explain if you ask), then you tell where

the mechanic fails.

 

For example many have been thinking that "target step" is some form of autolock function

that sees everything before your radar. Actually this feature just reads what the lockon radar

exports (you can ask lockon what is on the radar right *now* like this http://lockon.co.uk/index.php?lang=en&end_pos=567&scr=default,

as is explained by ED). LRM then generates a time based memory out of this (to compensate for shortcomings of the

LUA export), and you can actually lose hte graphics of a contact at certain timings but the radar still has him -

- you graphically arent shown the contact, but he is there on the radar, sometimes the timings interfere

(many patterns, too long to write down in one post), making you think you have stepped the cursor to him before detection.

Conditions where this happens are when you are close to gimbal limits /often moving left/right (like in a fight) or you

switch modes (rws->tws->else), causing the graphics to disappear (NOT the radar data exported by lockon)

Edited July 2, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[PoleCat]

Fear of the Unknown!

 

It's a Basic Instinct.......you have a 'product' in working order, albeit good, bad or otherwise lacking.......Bottom-Line is it works: Mods which add to the product are for this discussion irrelevant - The Veracity of the 'Product' itself is at stake.......

 

So it begs the question thus: Why change?

 

It does the Job! Whether the said job at the end of the day gets done in a manner which is Good, bad or otherwise lacking.......Vitally important to remember that said reflection is Subjective and forms the basis of an Individual's Opinion re the 'Product' and attendant 'Methods of Change'.

 

Said opinions are unified in the desire to welcome change, but again, as the subjectivity of the opinions will dictate, the manner in achieving said change fuels the debate and sadly, the inevitable hostility which follows.......

 

One would sincerely hope that through constructive debate and discussion, our boundries of understanding the issues are broadened.......sadly however said debates often spiral into a 'Power Struggle' and the intention behind change is lost in a 'Battle' for 'Supremacy' couched in posts veiled in innuendo and the like.......and as a consequence, the perceived 'Attack' on the Subjective belief/opinion held alienates the holder of the belief even further.......and so the vicious cycle continues.

 

Is it a matter of 'The more you learn, the more you don't know......'? Who knows - one thing is however certain - and this quote summarizes it well:

 

"....and the striving is the important part and not the solving. For it is in the striving that we grow and learn and change. If we solve one problem, we usually find another waiting in the wings, even more than one, but Lo..when we strive to be cordial, to listen, to embrace another's opinion, we become so much more than we thought we could be...."

 

 

Purpose of this diatribe?

 

 

As above......an attempt to stomp out the bashing: Conduct unbecomin' the LockOn/DCS Community :cry: :D

 

 

:pilotfly:

 

 

 

^^^ Well said and a trap I have fallen into many times myself.^^^

 

I would take this time to agree with Viper and apologize directly to any one I may have offended in the past with posts on any opinions I held that were delivered in an inconsiderate or impolite way. It is hard not to take things personal but it is important that we always try to be considerate, fair and open minded with people who have dissenting views.

 

Out

[BrumTx]

Kuky,

I get it believe me, I work for a small-ish Fire Department in South Texas, The department I am with now has been running for almost 40 years, when I arrived in SE Texas I had already been trained by a Large City Fire Department in the US and by a Fire Department in England, even the transition from England to the US department was different from my original training but after a few months I understood why their's was different, I might not have agreed with it but it worked for them and then in time I understood why and it worked for me.

 

Because my Wife wanted to return to her small-ish community in Texas, I found a job with a smaller department, again changes in the way things were done, now you tell me who was correct ? All of them are simply because it works for them in that particular application.

 

There is an old Firefighter saying " No two fires or call-out's are the same ", just as it's true with the mods available for Lockon or Flaming Cliffs, I may like a certain terrain mod, you may not, or a particular skin, again you may not, but it's MY Choice if I want to use it.

 

Over the past 3 years I have "collected" as many mod's as I can from various site's for LO and FC and now BS, (even though I don't have BS yet) they are all stored on a 1 Tb Hdd external drive, would you do that ? If the answer is no then that's YOUR CHOICE. I made it my choice, because I knew that in time certain Mod's would become unavailable and for whatever reason some people may want them again, in the past 2 weeks alone I have helped 5 people on different sites because I had stored the 'old mod'.

 

 

The ability to make a choice is human, I like Marmite and I bet you like Vegamite, 2 similar things but different, who's correct ???, I can get both items here but I like Marmite, it's my choice. You may like Fosters beer I may like Lonestar, it's my choice.

 

I am not putting anyone down for expressing their opinions, but we all need to tolerate eachother on this or any other forum, be it LO,FC,BS are all different, some like Helicopter sims other's don't, some prefer LO to FC and say the graphics or whatever are different with 1.02 to FC, but I choose to run FC because I like it, in time I will buy BS but I'll most likely wait till all the kinks are out and they do an update.

 

Opinions are good, they make the world go around, some are good others are bad, but the decision was made by choice.

 

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say :) and take no offence

 

EDIT: One day I may play online again and I'm sure not every server is using the LRM Mod, Just to add I don't know Yoda but he is spending a lot of his own time working on this mod and for that I thank Him and any other mod maker for their hard work as well as ED without them we would not have FC.

Edited July 2, 2009 by BrumTx

[GGTharos]

However, it is difficult for some to accept this after all this time LOMAC has been this way from Mr. Internet "Says it is so" guy who could really be anyone or anything. Again, it is the principle of the thing, IMO. I like LRM -- although I have only tried in in the F-15 so far -- but I can see where others would not because of this.

 

The radar with LRM performs better than without.

LRM adds the following:

Radar memory - if the lock is dropped, the radar will attempt to re-acquire

Antenna position retention - if your bandit goes into the notch and the radar fails to re-acquire, the radar is still looking at where you lost the bandit instead of resetting to where you acquired the bandit.

 

Eagle specific enhancements are the AZ and EL 2DTWS tracking, and IFF.

 

Now admittedly if you're flying a 29A and facing down an Eagle or Flanker with ECM you're very much in trouble. As you should be.

MiG-29A's aren't meant to do head-on BVR confrontations with these types of fighters.

Edited July 2, 2009 by GGTharos

[104th_Crunch]

Some good points Redtiger. There is nothing wrong with having a preference of no LRM over using LRM for whatever reason. People should respect others opinions and that is that. The problem is the people complaining that LRM is worse because it has changed something that it simply has not and then they spread misinformation without being educated. Even when they are educated as to the actual features of LRM they don't believe it and continue to spread bad LRM information. Of course there is nothing wrong with questioning LRM, but please do it in a constructive way.

 

I also think while valid, IMHO the person that does not like LRM because their old tactics are not working anymore should strive to change their old tactics. I had one person tell me that they would not fly on our server anymore simply because he did not want to learn any new tactics. He did not want to spend the time and wanted to continue to use his low flying tactics. He said he would not fly on the 169th server anymore. That is fine, I did not call him names or anything like that. I said to him I regret that fact but to each his own.

 

This thread has semi-deteriorated into personal attacks which is just silly. At the end of the day it is the server admins that choose what options of LRM to include. That choice may be made by listening to popular opinion and/or personal preference. So then, pick what server you want to fly in and call it a day. If you don't like the option of one server, find another with options more to your preference. If you can't find a server with options you prefer, then try to start your own server.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Crunch

[john_X]

1. this is not a personal attack yoda. i dont know you, you didnt do anything bad affecting me(excepting lrm..) and i think you are one of the most active mods developers...

 

2. when i see ggtharos saying: with lrm we have more realism, i start to burn and im close to explode. i cant take that as a an objective point of view...

 

3. its easy to say, dont play with lrm. did you notice all the important servers adopted this mod? do i have to choose anymore? not.

Edited July 2, 2009 by john_X

[GGTharos]

2. when i see ggtharos saying: with lrm we have more realism, i start to burn and im close to explode. i cant take that as a an objective point of view...

 

Ahem ...

 

4. i dont want to change old tactics for an unverified and unreal mod that makes them unusable in combat. i prefere old lockon.

to me what yoda did sounds like this... he is so bored to use same old tactics and he thought that it is great to change some of them, even new ones cant be verified for their realism...

 

 

Your PoV has zero objectivity. 'I don't want to change my tactics' is not a valid reason to call what LRM does unrealistic. Do you have something that could help us, like BVR manuals, aircraft manuals, etc etc?

 

LRM was started because of a desire to at least somewhat punish unrealistic tactics and reward realistic ones.

 

Since you yourself admitted to not knowing anything, how can you say that you 'burn' when I say LRM adds realism, and then you call it unrealistic and unverified?

[john_X]

its f.. simple dude. i see you really dont want to understand ...

i dont say original lockon is realistic , im sure its not. im also damn sure your mod its not realistic too.

BUT between two bad things, i choose the fisrt one because its the original of the game!! can you simply understand this? i dont trust you and your mod. as you did, anyone else could come with his own changes stating he has the absolute realism. i dont eat this sh..only if its from ED.

 

i deleted by mistake that 4 point..it is a valid one

[Pilotasso]

You just dont have any basis at all to debunk LRM realism. Thats your mistake, your opinion has a wrong point of start.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I can understand that you want to choose the original game.

I can also understand you don't trust the mod, or the people behind it.

 

What I do not agree with is you making any statement whatsoever as to the provision of realism enhancements in LRM while having admitted that you don't know anything.

The mod is based on sources and reasoning that comes from the real world and you're welcome to examine such things for yourself.

 

If you do not want to examine them, then I'll ask you to say 'I just prefer the plain LOFC', and skip the rest. I can respect that you might prefer to fly without LRM. I can't respect your opinion on any shade or grade of realism offered by LOFC as is, or LRM since you have based it on essntially nothing.

 

 

its f.. simple dude. i see you really dont want to understand ...

i dont say original lockon is realistic , im sure its not. im also damn sure your mod its not realistic too.

BUT between two bad things, i choose the fisrt one because its the original of the game!! can you simply understand this? i dont trust you and your mod. as you did, anyone else could come with his own changes stating he has the absolute realism. i dont eat this sh..only if its from ED.

 

i deleted by mistake that 4 point..it is a valid one

Edited July 2, 2009 by GGTharos

[RedTiger]

Radar memory - if the lock is dropped, the radar will attempt to re-acquire.

 

Did I miss this in Yoda's documentation? What exatly do you mean "re-acquire"?

[GGTharos]

I think the best way to explain is to give an example:

 

Someone blinks you with ECM, dropping your lock and hosing your shot.

With LRM, the radar relocks the target almost instantly, saving your shot. ;)

 

This is something you likely won't experience in SP though.

[RedTiger]

I think the best way to explain is to give an example:

 

Someone blinks you with ECM, dropping your lock and hosing your shot.

With LRM, the radar relocks the target almost instantly, saving your shot. ;)

 

This is something you likely won't experience in SP though.

 

Ah, I see. I thought that I had read about this one time but I misunderstood. The other evening I was turning away to break lock completely and trying to turn back towards it to see if the F-15's radar would reacquire.

[GGTharos]

I heard whispers that the real one might do something like that; MEM mode is obviously time-sensitive too, and works best with BVR mode in LO, due to the way LO handles radar.

[john_X]

pilotasso , do you have some basis when you talk about lrm?

dont reply anymore if thats all you have to say...

 

ggtharos, i admitted that. you keep telling me that, forget it. you dont have neither... reading books its not enough. you have to be a real pilot to be able to createsomething real. you can be an aviation enciclopedy and i bet you wont hit the truth...or

[john_X]

pilotasso , do you have some basis when you talk about lrm?

dont reply anymore if thats all you have to say...

 

ggtharos, i admitted that. you keep telling me that, forget it. you dont have neither... reading books its not enough. you have to be a real pilot to be able to createsomething real. you can be an aviation enciclopedy and i bet you wont hit the truth...or even better, an aircraft engineer for an air force that uses the plane, and i believe you then

[GGTharos]

I can only quote books because pilots don't necessarily want to be interrogated by the community, but I - and Yoda - and a lot of other people - have spoken with pilots or crew chiefs as well, and many squadrons have pilots within. Both Yoda and I, as well as other people you'll encounter here, for example A.S., DarkWanderer, and others - we are all well aware of the limitations of our knowledge ... but what we do know, we know.

 

Pilotasso's brother flies F-16's for a living, actually.

Edited July 2, 2009 by GGTharos

[BrumTx]

you dont have neither... reading books its not enough. you have to be a real pilot to be able to createsomething real.

 

 

Hmmmm so all the time I spent reading books before I got my PPL, etc (if you dont know what that is look it up in a book) was a waste of time ??? I'm sure my old instructors would be impressed.

[A.S]

reading books its not enough. you have to be a real pilot to be able to createsomething real.

 

 

 

Partially true...

 

Considering, that few of us (so me) are in touch/contact with real pilots - may it be civil or millitary - and few of us are also very addicted to that topic itself, collecting tremendous datas and lectures over time, and actually also reading or working with much of it, also considering that few of us are also in touch with developers of various sims in simulator-history generally, it proofs out that "real" pilots do not know alltime everything 100% best.

They are specialists in their branche and of course blessed with the overall knowledge due to the nature of their jobs, but you would be suprised what sometimes real pilots don´t know.

Although their inputs are highly welcome, they sometimes even variate between eachother.

Regardless the classified informations, there are enourmous accurate datas out there - unclassified - to work with in order to make comparsions or in order to implement those things in a sim-engine as much as it is possible in perspective.

 

Let me give you an example ....there are folks out there who engineered 5th generations fighters, but never ever spent one minute in flight in them.

(..just a mind-brigde)

 

:smilewink:

Edited July 2, 2009 by A.S

[RedTiger]

pilotasso , do you have some basis when you talk about lrm?

dont reply anymore if thats all you have to say...

 

ggtharos, i admitted that. you keep telling me that, forget it. you dont have neither... reading books its not enough. you have to be a real pilot to be able to createsomething real. you can be an aviation enciclopedy and i bet you wont hit the truth...or even better, an aircraft engineer for an air force that uses the plane, and i believe you then

 

How about talking to real pilots? I don't think anyone at ED is currently a combat pilot, but they do talk with them.

[RvETito]

With or without LRM comrade Tito will get you. But he feels better when he gets you with LRM :P Reason is very simple- LRM helps me better understand why I'm succeeding or failing. But as a rule I never fail, I just fall in some world conspiracy traps from time to time.

[RvETito]

I don't think anyone at ED is currently a combat pilot, but they do talk with them.

 

You bet, but not only pilots especially in the chopper area :P

[GGTharos]

Ok, this just begs for your very own patriotic theme music! :D

 

With or without LRM comrade Tito will get you. But he feels better when he gets you with LRM :P Reason is very simple- LRM helps me better understand why I'm succeeding or failing. But as a rule I never fail, I just fall in some world conspiracy traps from time to time.

[Kuky]

This is what I find the most unrealistic part of LRM... when you face someone head to head, your bandit is in F-15C and you are in Su-27, you both fire missiles and you both go defensive... the F-15C pilot can simply turn tail forgetting about his missile... he lets his missile do all the job. The SU-27 pilot (me for example) I need to keep lock and keep track if lock is lost as to what F-15 is doing and evaiding that missile...

 

Now what really pisses me off is that I manage to evade the missile and still have the running bandit locked... he is receeding and just outside RMAX so I don't launch... the F-15 then goes into climb... and what I see is him going from defensive to offensive position again... just as he flips over on my radar and I see he went 180° I fire my missile and I see the F-15 going same turn-tail-and-run defensive and of course it trashes my missile... and before I know it I already have another AIM-120 into me out of nowhere... this is utter bullshit (pardon my language but I really have no better worlds for it) that someone can go from full defensive to full offensive, get me on radar in close range (meaning he knows exactly where to point his antena etc and you would all have to agree to get someone on radar with altitude difference at close range is very hard and takes some time).

 

If you call this one button press to point/lock/shoot.. or maddog...or TWS an active and all in 1-2 seconds realistic, and if you don't think this is an exploit of new kind you are blind... for this one reason (which is why we never wanted TargetStepMod in 3Sqn server even when we tried and enabled ALL other parts of LRM) me and all in my squadron (including an F-18 pilot) have said, this is utter bull**** (full stop)

 

I have every right to question what is being presented to me and if any of you knew any better this is most basic and one of the first principles of science. Even what you read in books is not neccesserily true... I have questioned some individuals ability to act almost as if they are robots and all seeing AI... and again the way LRM is working for radars it is not completely realistic same as stock lockOn is not... but the fact that some individuals need and want so bad to have helpers like TargetStepMod and HOTAS macro-one-button-push-do-it-all-crap.... and being able to do things like going deffensive-offensife-fire-your-missile-go-deffensive all in 2-3 seconds even when 3 good pilots are against you and firing at you... give me a break. I will never accept that as realistic and that's it.