GTX 1080Ti or RTX 2080Ti. Which to choose?

[kksnowbear]

5 minutes ago, Holbeach said:

The GPU is my bottleneck.

I really find that extremely unlikely.  What are you basing it on?

[Holbeach]

7 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

I really find that extremely unlikely.  What are you basing it on?

This, if I'm reading it correctly.

Settings are high.

 

 

 

..

Edited July 28, 2024 by Holbeach

[kksnowbear]

Just now, Holbeach said:

This, if I'm reading it correctly.

 

 

 

..

Ah. Now we're getting somewhere...

I'm not sure you are reading it correctly, or rather, interpreting it correctly.

I'm not an expert on that particular tool, so someone else might explain better than I can about why/how it works, but I've heard more than once it's not accurate.  Also heard that (in a sort of left-handed way), it's preferred to have that show GPU bound.

That aside, where I feel my expertise is proven, is in system building/hardware...and from that perspective I can absolutely, 100% assure you: your CPU is - by far -the weak link in your system.

[xoxen]

I always use MSI Afterburner to see the exact utilization, but at least this shows you seem to be GPU bound.

The RTX 2080 Ti gives you the chance to use DLSS, maybe a chance to get the best out of your system. If you fly Multiplayer an upgrade of your RAM might be reasonable

[Aapje]

26 minutes ago, xoxen said:

The RTX 2080 Ti gives you the chance to use DLSS, maybe a chance to get the best out of your system.

DLSS increases the load on the CPU and reduces the load on the GPU, so if moving to the 2080 Ti makes him CPU-limited, then he'd probably better keep it off.

[kksnowbear]

Yeah...DLSS is remarkable technology in a lot of ways...

...but I'm not sure this is really an ideal "use case", (at least not with a 2600k CPU and at 1080p).

Using AfterBurner is not a bad idea for monitoring usage/load generally - but you have to be aware it can also be misleading if it's output data is misinterpreted.  All it does is give you the data; accurately figuring out what the data means is sometimes not as straightforward as reading numbers.  I have seen, first hand, numbers displayed that could easily be misinterpreted (and were being misinterpreted by less experienced people).

Edited July 28, 2024 by kksnowbear

[LucShep]

I passed to a family member a much older system with Intel 7 2600K, ASUS P8P67, 24GB of DDR3 1600Mhz 8-8-8-24 RAM (4+8+4+8 GB sticks, all Gskill RipjawsX).
It's overclocked @4.3Ghz (all-core) with a simple Hyper212 (two fans in push-pull) for many, many years without any issues or degradation.
I'd strongly recommend doing it. 

Like yours, it's using a GTX1070 (Gigabyte G1 Gaming). 
The most that you'll get with that CPU, without bottlenecking the GPU, is with an RTX2070 Super or GTX1080Ti.
And notice: overclocked, not stock.

Doesn't mean that you shouldn't get the RTX2080Ti if it's a good deal (if it is, then get it!), but you'll be hostage of situations where games are purely GPU dependent, or not.
When games are CPU dependent, that RTX2080Ti will be severely underused, because that 2600K CPU+ DDR3 RAM can not keep up with that GPU.
This will certainly be the case with more complex missions in DCS, in single and multi player.

Honestly, I'd really consider upgrading the CPU+motherboard+RAM (and cooler) if you're getting a more potent GPU.
Something like an Intel i5 12600KF, ASRock Z690 Pro RS, 64GB DDR4 (2x 32GB 3200 CL16 Gskill RipjawsV, for example), and a Peerless Assassin 120SE air-cooler, that would be a combination with absolutely tremendous jump in processing power. 
While not exactly cheap change, that can be had for not too much money (about $400 for all those parts new) - probably the best bang for the buck right now.

Edited July 28, 2024 by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, LucShep said:

Honestly, I'd really consider upgrading the CPU+motherboard+RAM (and cooler).

Absolutely (although I'd have to say go with AMD rather than Intel, as much as I might hate having to say it)

To the OP: No one's saying you can't upgrade the GPU while still using the 2700K - you most assuredly can.  Put a 4090 in it if you want lol...

...but you have to consider the effects of an imbalance in GPU/CPU.

Get the GPU for now if it is all your budget allows for and if you really want to approach it that way (I did ask about budget already, never got a response BTW)...upgrade the rest of the machine later.  No law against it.

You just have to accept that it's going to be even more mismatched by putting in a more powerful GPU, unless/until you bring the balance of the platform up to the level of the GPU.  TBH my opinion is even a 1080Ti is going to be mismatched to a 2600K, at 1080p.  Maybe if the resolution were higher (1440p) it would offset somewhat the imbalance, but you can only get so far with that approach.

Upgrading gaming computers is not as simple as reading a number on the screen and throwing a better GPU at it (if it's done properly, that is).

Edited July 29, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Aapje]

10 hours ago, LucShep said:

Something like an Intel i5 12600KF, ASRock Z690 Pro RS, 64GB DDR4 (2x 32GB 3200 CL16 Gskill RipjawsV, for example), and a Peerless Assassin 120SE air-cooler, that would be a combination with absolutely tremendous jump in processing power. 
While not exactly cheap change, that can be had for not too much money (about $400 for all those parts new) - probably the best bang for the buck right now.

The issue with that choice is that you are sacrificing upgradability and reusability for the future. When buying new, I'd sooner go for a 7600(X) on AM5 with DDR5-6000. Then in the future you can almost certainly do a major upgrade for fairly little, by upgrading to the last X3D processor for the AM5-platform once that comes down in price a lot. For example, those that bought into AM4 early, can now do a huge upgrade for only £210 by moving to the 5700X3D. Most likely there will be a similar option for AM5 in the future.

Spending a little bit more to save hundreds in the future is not a bad idea.

Also, games seem to be getting increasingly optimized for DDR5 and the price of DDR5 has become very reasonable, so why buy the slower DDR4 memory today, unless you get a nice 2nd-hand deal?

Of course, it is hard to say what the best choice is, without knowing the local prices. I don't know what the new and second hand prices are in England/West Norfolk.

[Holbeach]

Thanks again for the answers.

My CPU was originally OC to 4.4 for use in video rendering (767 Youtube) and CPU hungry FSX, coupled with a GTX580, then a 970 and now a EVGA 1070 FTW, bought when the Harrier came out. All showed a marked improvement on their predecessor.

I now limit CPU to 3.8 for longevity. DCS single player is my main game, stored on a M2 970 Evo plus. Cooling is good. Regular cleaning is the key.

Both GPUs are about the same price on Ebay, around £260. Money is not a problem.

Given that the 2600K is staying put, I will probably be getting the 2080ti and see what happens, then go from there.

The dev tool I'm using, is in the game. Right Cont. /Pause. I also use Afterburner and Samsung Magician.

My toughest mission is Marianas, with 96 SAM elements and 14 aircraft giving around 47fps max. I will use this to do a comparison.

..

Edited July 29, 2024 by Holbeach

[xoxen]

It would be great if you share the experience you are going to achieve. If the price is the same I also would go for the faster one, an investment into the future, one day a new CPU will come as well and you can raise the power step by step.

And thanks to the others, I was not aware that DLSS does suck up CPU power. I'm not using it but always good to know. I'm actually waiting for the Ryzen 9000 and GeForce 5000 to arrive 

[kksnowbear]

Just because I actually have a fair amount of data from decades of testing, I thought I'd go back just to see if I had anything that might help illustrate the effect I'm referring to.

It happens I have records - they're benchmark results, which I know aren't necessarily going to translate directly to DCS results, but benchmarks exist for comparisons exclusive of specific game(s), so they're still valid; arguably better in some respects.

Anyway, I have records from testing where I had upgraded three platforms from a 1070Ti to a 1080Ti:  A 4790K, a 6700K, and a 7600K.  Same board and CPU each time, only change was swapping the GPU from a 1070Ti to a 1080Ti.  if you use the right data, this shows very clearly the effect of pairing a more powerful GPU with less powerful CPUs.

Going from a 1070Ti to a 1080Ti on an i5-7600K yields a 14.61% increase in 3DMark FireStrike's Combined Test* frame rate score.

On a i7-6700K, changing a 1070Ti for a 1080Ti only increases the Combined Test frame rate score by 6.5%.  Same platform/test - less than half the increase.

Going down to an i7-4790K CPU, the same change in GPUs (1070Ti>1080Ti), the increase in frame rate scores drops to 4.6%.  That's now down to less than 1/3 the gain with the same change in GPUs - just because of the lesser CPU.

(* I am using the Combined Test results here because that considers both CPU and GPU in FireStrike).

You really start to see the effect, even with two GPUs that aren't that far apart, and a comparatively smaller range of CPUs.

Obviously, the delta between a 1070 and 2080Ti (as with the OP's case) is going to result in an even greater difference in "bottleneck" than from a 1070Ti to a 1080Ti (as much as I do really hate that term).

Just as obviously, the gain from changing GPUs on the platforms in my test data will continue to diminish as the CPU's performance decreases.  My test data goes from a 7600K down to a 4790K, but the effect of a mismatched GPU will be more when paired with a 2600K (since the 4790K performance is somewhere around 15% more than the 2600K).

As I mentioned earlier, anyone is free to drop a 4090 into a 2600k platform if that's what they want to do.  I don't really "have a dog in that fight" lol

I'm just providing this data to further illustrate and quantify the point about mismatching CPU and GPU, both as relates to this specific discussion/thread and for future reference where others will likely see this.  I think this is often misunderstood or underestimated, and hopefully this data helps avoid that.

Edited July 30, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Holbeach]

So I've got an ASUS ROG Strix RTX 2080Ti on its way.

Is it ging to work in this old system?

Is it even going to fit? It's a big bugger.

Is there going to be an improvement or not?

I've been flying around Caucasus, Afghanistan, and Falklands today.

High at about 75fps and low over cities at about 45fps, but most importantly, smooth as a baby.

Why would I want to change it?

Let's see if it's worth it.

..

[kksnowbear]

Is it ging to work in this old system?

Almost certainly (unless you having something fairly unusual going on)... just not as well as if it were better matched.

Is it even going to fit? It's a big bugger.

Couldn't tell ya

Is there going to be an improvement or not?

Again: Almost certainly (unless you having something fairly unusual going on)... just not as well as if it were better matched.

[Rudel_chw]

49 minutes ago, Holbeach said:

So I've got an ASUS ROG Strix RTX 2080Ti on its way.

Is it ging to work in this old system?

Is it even going to fit? It's a big bugger.

 

In order for it to work, you need two things: 

a) A Power supply with two VGA connectors, to match the two sockets of the card:

 

 

b) a PCIe x16 slot, plus its adjacent slot, free, on a case with at least 30.5 cm of space for it in the direction of the slot.

 

49 minutes ago, Holbeach said:

Is there going to be an improvement or not?

 

If the CPU cant feed the card quick enough, you will not gain fps ... but at the very least you should be able to increase the image graphic detail, to put a bigger load on the GPU.

 

 

[LucShep]

@Holbeach Not much to add to what @kksnowbear just said above, but "is there going to be an improvement or not" is not even a question.

The RTX2080Ti is at least 50% faster than a GTX1070, and in practical terms it can double the performance in heavy scenarios.

Your system will slow it down quite a bit (being outdated for it), but you'll still see enough gains not to be disapointed.
The RTX2080Ti Strix was among the best models, and it's still a very good GPU today.
Just please consider upgrading your system ASAP (discussed already in this thread) because you won't see its full capabilities until then.

PS: the RTX2080Ti Strix is somewhat power hungry (can eat up to 270W in power consumption, 2x 8-pin PCIe from PSU required).
I see in your signature "1kw PSU".. but what brand and model of PSU is it?

Edited July 30, 2024 by LucShep

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, Holbeach said:

Is it even going to fit? It's a big bugger.

You can just open up your case and measure. It is about 305 mm long.

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, LucShep said:

The RTX2080Ti is at least 50% faster than a GTX1070, and in practical terms it can double the performance in heavy scenarios.

This is fairly accurate, at least according to the test results I have:  The (3DMark FireStrike) Graphics Scores are ~45-47% higher, as are frame rate scores in the graphics-heavy Game Tests.  (Note this was a 1070Ti)

However:

1 hour ago, LucShep said:

Your system will slow it down quite a bit (being outdated for it), but you'll still see enough gains not to be disapointed.

This is also true, and not at all good.  The 50% figures above are only valid when comparing the performance of a 1080Ti directly with a 1070, and do not consider the rest of a system.

When the CPU is factored in, as I described above with the Combined test figures, the improvement suffers significantly.

Overall scores only increased ~25% on all three of the platforms I discussed above.  Not that 25% is bad - but the 1080Ti should be closer to a 50% gain, it's just being held back by the CPU...which kind of illustrates the point about mismatching the GPU and the balance of the platform.

And remember:  The least powerful CPU in my results (a 4790k) was still ~15% better than the OP's 2600K.

Edited July 30, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Holbeach]

Here's the works. 13 Y/O AIH.

2 x 8 pin power.

P8 Z68-V with Pcie 2.0

1000w PS

 

 

 

 

..

 

Edited July 31, 2024 by Holbeach

[LucShep]

9 hours ago, Holbeach said:

Here's the works. 13 Y/O AIH.

2 x 8 pin power.

P8 Z68-V with Pcie 2.0

1000w PS

 

 

Those old OCZ ZX PSUs were really, really good. But that was in their day, a long time ago (circa 2011)....
 Not so sure it'll do so good with a modern 270W GPU, but then it was SLI ready in their day, and it's pushing the GTX1070 after all. 

The one thing that you really need to change urgently is that PC case (holy old box batman!).  It's absurdly claustrophobic for your new hot GPU, that won't go well.
You have really good budget ATX cases now, absolutely worth the effort on the components transplant to it.

PS: Take a good look at the Montech AIR 903 AIR MAX (great ATX case, a review by TPU), which costs just £60,00:

• https://www.scan.co.uk/products/montech-air-903-max-black-mid-tower-chassis-w-tempered-glass-3x-140mm-argb-fans-usb-ype-c-e-atx-atx
   
• https://www.overclockers.co.uk/montech-air-903-max-midi-tower-tempered-glass-black-cas-mon-01229.html
   

IMHO, there's no excuse not to do it right away with the new GPU coming.  More than giving that system a modern new look, it'll be a humungous jump in better internal space, layout, and especially airflow (4x 140mm fans that you plug to a SATA power connector of PSU and one single PWM to motherboard!).

 

Edited July 31, 2024 by LucShep

[Panzerlang]

All I remember, vaguely, is the 20-series ran stupidly hot for not a lot more performance of the 1080Ti. I ran my 1080Ti until I got a 3080Ti (which now sits in an unused PC).

[Rudel_chw]

7 minutes ago, Panzerlang said:

the 20-series ran stupidly hot

 

Agree .. I used to run my GTX1070ti with all PC fans on silent mode, at  reduced rpm, but the RTX2080 that I have now ran so hot that I was forced to set all fans at max performance, pity but I will hold it until I can afford a more modern card.

[Holbeach]

Right, lets reiterate the rules of engagement.

We have an old system. This can't be changed.

What would you do to upgrade with a new graphics card. A GTX 1080 or rtx 2080 or something else.

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[kksnowbear]

37 minutes ago, Holbeach said:

Right, lets reiterate the rules of engagement.

We have an old system. This can't be changed.

What would you do to upgrade with a new graphics card. A GTX 1080 or rtx 2080 or something else.

..

Well at least it's more realistic. 

As I've said more than once, by all means put whatever GPU you can afford in it...just accept that it's going to create a situation where the rest if the machine is hurting the GPU.

And, if I'm being honest, that was *before* your saying this is a PCIe 2.0 system.  I have several Z68 boards but I made sure when acquiring them that they all support Gen3.  That's going to enter into this as well. A 1080ti will be affected, a 2080ti more so.

There's nothing wrong (necessarily) with putting a too powerful GPU in a build like yours...just that (for lack of a better way to put it) it probably won't "feel like" the upgrade you thought you paid for.

IMHO your 2600k platform was already doing well to keep up with a 1070.  (Note that a 1070 won't be affected by PCIe 2.0 vs 3.0, it's not fast enough.)

But just like with the other parts...the faster a GPU you put in it, the more adversely all these other factors will affect the GPU.

That's my honest opinion fwiw.

[Holbeach]

13 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Well at least it's more realistic. 

As I've said more than once, by all means put whatever GPU you can afford in it...just accept that it's going to create a situation where the rest if the machine is hurting the GPU.

And, if I'm being honest, that was *before* your saying this is a PCIe 2.0 system.  I have several Z68 boards but I made sure when acquiring them that they all support Gen3.  That's going to enter into this as well. A 1080ti will be affected, a 2080ti more so.

There's nothing wrong (necessarily) with putting a too powerful GPU in a build like yours...just that (for lack of a better way to put it) it probably won't "feel like" the upgrade you thought you paid for.

IMHO your 2600k platform was already doing well to keep up with a 1070.  (Note that a 1070 won't be affected by PCIe 2.0 vs 3.0, it's not fast enough.)

But just like with the other parts...the faster a GPU you put in it, the more adversely all these other factors will affect the GPU.

That's my honest opinion fwiw.

What do you think about replacing my board with a Gen 3 version? This would be an easy swap.

It would bring my Evo up to full speed. I was surprised it worked in the first place, The first one was a 250gb.

What would be a good CPU to go with it?

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