If you get stuck, read this

[Reflected]

Long post, but it's important that we get this out of the way now. TLDR: If you get stuck and you think the triggers stopped firing, post a screenshot of the last few lines of the message history menu, and I'm happy to help figure out where it all went wrong.

So just a few days after release, MIG Killers is shaping up to be a lot like the Speed & Angels campaign. And I take it as a compliment. It has had 2 kind of players: those who said it was the most realistic experience they had in a flight sim, and it taught them more about flying the Tomcat and military aviation in general than they could ever hope for, and otoh those who gave up after a few missions, blaming the triggers, the AI or the mission design for their poor performance. Just like Speed & Angels, MIG Killers was thoroughly tested by some players and none of them ever got stuck. Ever.

You're not flying a Sopwith Camel over no man's land in 1917. I assume you bought MIG Killers because you want to experience what it was like to participate in the first Topgun course ever, in a study level environment. The word study entails paying attention, discipline, and learning. You either play along or you're not gonna have fun.

I've already received a lot of suggestions that the mission design is too fragile, or unforgiving, so let me show you how "unforgiving" it is:

When your instructor wants you to do an egg, he says: "OK, plug in the blowers and pull, let's point the nose straight up."

I need to be able to rely upon you doing that. Straight up means 90 degrees of pitch, yet the next trigger will fire within a cone of 30 degrees of leeway. Surely I can expect you to be within that, you do have an attitude indicator in the cockpit with a large black dot indicating 90 degrees. Just put the thing on the thing.

Or Nellis control will hand you off to Indian Springs Tower over nav point PIUTE. But I don't expect the player to overfly it exactly. You need to be within a 4 mile radius circle. That's an 8 mile wide zone. Surely you can hit that? It's not irrationally unforgiving is it? You think real life ATC would give you so much slack?

BUT: Some players ignore explicit instructions, or choose to do a stored heading alignment, and due to the INS drift miss PIUTE by 6 miles, failing to double check using TACAN, or just feel like not turning on the landing light today. Everybody has a different 'meh I don't wanna do this', part, so at the end of the day I either make all 500 triggers per mission optional and skippable by introducing another 2000 in each, or you do what the mission tells you.

Another example: Fam flight, loop: first the instructor tells you to start pulling up to 15 degrees of AoA. The second trigger fires when you're above 14 units of AoA or, as a failsafe, when you're over 80 degrees of pitch ( you should hit 15 units AoA before 40 degrees if you do it right). The instructor says: "Transition to 15 units of AoA, nice and smooth. Look back up to visually catch the horizon". Then, the next trigger fires as you go over the top, so pitch is between 0 and -60, and 6 seconds after the previous voice over in order not to overlap: Out of burner, let the g-s build up to 5 and keep it there. Then your instructor considers the loop finished 10 seconds after this voice over when you're flying straight and level again, less than 10 degrees pitch and bank. If you do it right, you feel like you have a real life instructor in the backseat coaching you through the maneuver. Very immersive. But if I cannot be sure you're gonna hit these very basic checkpoints throughout the maneuver, all I can do is tell you to go do a loop, and that's it. Not so much fun anymore, is it?

Mission building is a very simple equation: the more things/ parameters the designer can assume, the more details they can introduce. The less things I can predict, the less triggers/ stuff I can set up. A free flight will never have so many voice overs because I wouldn't know if the player is  doing loops over one place or bombing another. My campaigns are at the very end of this scale in favor of details.

This campaign is full of extra "failsafe" triggers, in case the AI messes up, or something doesn't work out, to make sure it still progresses. But it does not, and will not have fail safes for the player ignoring explicit instructions.

This campaign carefully explains what you need to do exactly, it has chalkboard drawings, and all the instructions are available in a pdf format under mods/campaigns/ MIG Killers/ doc. If you really must do something, a message will linger on your screen until you do just that. You either play along, or you don't, but it's your call what you make of this campaign.

I realize it may have sounded like a rant, it's not. I'm 100% sure that this campaign will make everyone a better and more lethal F-4 pilot, and teach you tons about the Phantom and military aviation in general. I want you to succeed. But you need to do the work to get there, you won't get good by acting like a lawyer and negotiating why you didn't do anything wrong.

Bottom line: post that screenshot, I'm here to help.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2024 by Reflected

[fjacobsen]

@Reflected

I am one if those who reported that I missed further instructions when reaching PIUTE.

This report was in no way meant as critisism of the Campaign, but only a way seeking help on what I might have done wrong or what to expect.

I don't now which situation actually will trigger the next instruction, and God thanks for that, cause that would be an immersion killer.

I only flew this mission (Familisation mission 1) once and certainly will have to repeat this serveral times inorder to learn it indepth, so I only asked for help to get it right the next time.

This Campaign is exactly what I have been looking for and so far I'm really pleased with what I have seen and learned - it is really immersive, educational and immersive at the same time - so kudos to Your work.

But when I feel that I get stucked I also want to seek help from either You or the community without it bring taken down as critisism, cause it really isn't.

I'm fully aware that You cannot safeguard the mission events for all deviations the player might make.

 

So once again....

Thank You Reflected for this really great Campaign, giving us the oportunity to learn real life procedures.

For what I have ween, this will definitly not be the last Campaign from You, that I will buy - lookimg forward to those available and those to come

 

[Reflected]

8 minutes ago, fjacobsen said:

@Reflected

I am one if those who reported that I missed further instructions when reaching PIUTE.

This report was in no way meant as critisism of the Campaign, but only a way seeking help on what I might have done wrong or what to expect.

I don't now which situation actually will trigger the next instruction, and God thanks for that, cause that would be an immersion killer.

I only flew this mission (Familisation mission 1) once and certainly will have to repeat this serveral times inorder to learn it indepth, so I only asked for help to get it right the next time.

This Campaign is exactly what I have been looking for and so far I'm really pleased with what I have seen and learned - it is really immersive, educational and immersive at the same time - so kudos to Your work.

But when I feel that I get stucked I also want to seek help from either You or the community without it bring taken down as critisism, cause it really isn't.

I'm fully aware that You cannot safeguard the mission events for all deviations the player might make.

 

So once again....

Thank You Reflected for this really great Campaign, giving us the oportunity to learn real life procedures.

For what I have ween, this will definitly not be the last Campaign from You, that I will buy - lookimg forward to those available and those to come

 

I'd love to help solve it, but as I said I'd need a screenshot as described above. Maybe you didn't do anything wrong, but the F-4's INS is bugged. We need to figure this out, so please post a screenshot of the message history with the last 10-15 lines you heard.

My post wasn't 'against' you, I just saw the same pattern emerge as after Speed n Angels so I had to point these out and explain in more details.

Edited August 17, 2024 by Reflected

[fjacobsen]

@Reflected

I tried a second and a third time, finally with succes at the last try 

I´m not sure, but this time I made certain that all the drills where performed near Quartzite and kept from drifting southward.

I got all the right calls to get into position for the approach and has now progressed to the next mission.

[PawlaczGMD]

I'm in mission 7 now, and I never had any issues with triggers, etc. Good job! I do a stored heading, but never had much of a problem with drift, and you're supposed to follow lead until you get a hang of it anyway.

[Bryan - Flash]

I can't even take off on the 1v1 mission.  Some M4 dude just blocks the runway entrance.  Even did the Full Alignment.  Tried like 5 or 6 times now and getting really frustrated.  Followed the mission check list and the long check list.  Nothing.  

Other than that.  Really enjoyed the parts I could fly.

[Reflected]

@Bryan - Flash What about the screenshot I was asking for in the first sentence of my first post?  without that I can only tell you you’re doing something wrong. 
 

btw on the 1v1 mission, as per your kneeboard, the F-86 is flight lead you’re supposed to be taxiing behind him. 

Edited August 18, 2024 by Reflected

[Bryan - Flash]

Yes, I do.  I let him pull out first.  Then follow him down to the arming area.

I'll try again and get that to you.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2024 by Bryan - Flash

[Reflected]

So the soldier is blocking him, and he's blocking you, right? Sounds to me like you're not completing your checklist.

[Bryan - Flash]

Ok, I figured out what was holding me up.  When going thru the taxi checklist.  Back seater asks [Oxygen].  I always figured it was just making sure it was on.  Nope, you have to cycle the white switch to left of the green one.  That little switch was it.

Great mission on the 1v1.

So far.  10 out of 10!

[Reflected]

32 minutes ago, Bryan - Flash said:

Ok, I figured out what was holding me up.  When going thru the taxi checklist.  Back seater asks [Oxygen].  I always figured it was just making sure it was on.  Nope, you have to cycle the white switch to left of the green one.  That little switch was it.

Great mission on the 1v1.

So far.  10 out of 10!

Glad to hear it works. If there is an "Oxygen" message lingering on screen for 1000 seconds, it should raise suspicion that smth needs to be done there

There are 3 switches: normal - normal - on. You need to check all 3. It's written down in your kneeboard cards too, all checklists are there, as well as in pdf format in the doc folder, why did I work so much on these if nobody is looking at them?

Edited August 18, 2024 by Reflected

[GUCCI]

Thank you Reflected for an amazing campaign so far. My only issue I’ve had so far is fuel related the Instructor seems keen on telling me to practice maneuvers as much as I want, maybe not realizing we only have 5-6 thousand pounds on board by the time I finish the first few maneuvers. Needless to say, on fam flight mission 1, I had to skip the PIUTE approach and go direct to Indian Springs via Tacan, with only 1800 pounds on board I was starting to sweat. Luckily, even though I skipped PIUTE by about 15 miles, by the time I reached IS, instructor called our initial and I completed the mission without issues. Looking forward to flying and studying the next missions. Even after Fam 1, those turn exercises really helped me understand the phantoms turn rate much more clearly. Thank you sir for a great job indeed, will absolutely have to pick up S&A’s once I finish MiG Killers!

[Reflected]

7 minutes ago, GUCCI said:

Thank you Reflected for an amazing campaign so far. My only issue I’ve had so far is fuel related the Instructor seems keen on telling me to practice maneuvers as much as I want, maybe not realizing we only have 5-6 thousand pounds on board by the time I finish the first few maneuvers. Needless to say, on fam flight mission 1, I had to skip the PIUTE approach and go direct to Indian Springs via Tacan, with only 1800 pounds on board I was starting to sweat. Luckily, even though I skipped PIUTE by about 15 miles, by the time I reached IS, instructor called our initial and I completed the mission without issues. Looking forward to flying and studying the next missions. Even after Fam 1, those turn exercises really helped me understand the phantoms turn rate much more clearly. Thank you sir for a great job indeed, will absolutely have to pick up S&A’s once I finish MiG Killers!

The RIO doesn't have a fuel gauge, you need to monitor it. Better skip the optional loops and eggs. There is a bingo on your kneeboard, if you respect that, you can make it back to base properly.

[GUCCI]

1 hour ago, Reflected said:

The RIO doesn't have a fuel gauge, you need to monitor it. Better skip the optional loops and eggs. There is a bingo on your kneeboard, if you respect that, you can make it back to base properly.

Yeah, I did each maneuver once. I did monitor my fuel, but that 450kt cruise did burn a lot of gas, I should’ve maybe eased off in transit to the range, and when leaving. Getting used to the phantom and her fuel thirsty J79’s.

next mission I’ll make sure to respect the joker and bingo, and do the full approach 

[Reflected]

For transit 350 is plenty enough

[Mnemonic]

I noticed this is only an issue in “Fam Flight - Event 1”, because it’s one long uninterrupted mission.

We barely have the fuel to do all the maneuvers once, maybe one of them twice, and return back with tiny reserve.

On subsequent missions it’s not an issue as mission will load parts of the training (sub missions) with more than enough fuel to complete each task.

 

Reflected, maybe a suggestion for Fam Flight mission to have an option in F-10 menu to tell your instructor that we’re low on fuel and RTB?

Or have it automatically triggered by pilot once certain fuel minimum reached?

Just a suggestion

Edited August 20, 2024 by Mnemonic

[Reflected]

42 minutes ago, Mnemonic said:

I noticed this is only an issue in “Fam Flight - Event 1”, because it’s one long uninterrupted mission.

We barely have the fuel to do all the maneuvers once, maybe one of them twice, and return back with tiny reserve.

On subsequent missions it’s not an issue as mission will load parts of the training (sub missions) with more than enough fuel to complete each task.

 

Reflected, maybe a suggestion for Fam Flight mission to have an option in F-10 menu to tell your instructor that we’re low on fuel and RTB?

Or have it automatically triggered by pilot once certain fuel minimum reached?

Just a suggestion

 

Sorry, I never ran out of fuel during the FAM flight. You alone have a fuel gauge and the throttle, and there is a safe bingo on your kneeboard cards. If you don't have the fuel, don't do the extra eggs and loops. But you should be able to. Fuel management is a must have basic skill you need to practice before you can move on.

[Mnemonic]

That’s clear, I can RTB myself when hitting Bingo, or I can just restart level, but those are Game-isms

There are also tankers around I can hook with (hush!)

Would be cool to have a mechanism to make your scripted RIO aware, by F-10 menu option for example, that’s (unfortunately lame) pilot is now running on fumes and want’s to go back, so that mission “gracefully fails”, keeping immersion in place, scripted RIO could switch to exit at CESAR for example, etc.

 

It’s not a big problem or anything, just a suggestion of something that could make it cooler, without too much scripting.

I’m going through missions, they are really well made!

Edited August 20, 2024 by Mnemonic

[fjacobsen]

I succeeded by making a non afterburner takeoff, but had to use some during the climb to 10.000 ft before going over Indian Springs City.

The the rest of the mission I only used the afterburners for the drills where they where needed and only doing the drills once.

I think I was down to 250 of fuel when parked.

Edited August 21, 2024 by fjacobsen

[Reflected]

You’re doing smth wrong then. Just don’t fly faster than u need to. And stay close to quartzite mt

[Kharrn]

Am 20.8.2024 um 10:58 schrieb Mnemonic:

I noticed this is only an issue in “Fam Flight - Event 1”, because it’s one long uninterrupted mission.

We barely have the fuel to do all the maneuvers once, maybe one of them twice, and return back with tiny reserve.

On subsequent missions it’s not an issue as mission will load parts of the training (sub missions) with more than enough fuel to complete each task.

 

Am 20.8.2024 um 11:43 schrieb Reflected:

Sorry, I never ran out of fuel during the FAM flight. You alone have a fuel gauge and the throttle, and there is a safe bingo on your kneeboard cards. If you don't have the fuel, don't do the extra eggs and loops. But you should be able to. Fuel management is a must have basic skill you need to practice before you can move on.

On my first try (Event 01) i also reached very low fuel state which gave me a compressor stall on the way back (close to Piute). But i didnt pay much attention to my fuel state - maybe because i somehow had in mind i have unlimited fuel, which was clearly not correct

Second try i did the first loop without burner and a second one with burner. i did two additional eggs. landed with about 2700lbs. So yeah i did transit rather fast at 400 most times but i always tried to trade altitude for speed when doing loops and eggs.

I thought the first flight (after Intro) was more of a training to get the basic maneuvers but i do understand (and value!) your take on the Fighter School @Reflected Still it might had been good to also make it a two part mission so ppl can really retry those basic maneuvers: e.g. 1. transit and basic AoA and 2. rocket, loops, eggs and RTB. But i do also like to have one complete start-to-land mission in the beginning. Just my take on that, no criticism here

I personally just need to step up my A game and basic flying stuff   Lots of phun so far!

Greetings

 

[Reflected]

I thought about that too but I also wanted at least one full mission

I figured it’s easy for the player to practice, you just open a free flight mission, nothing else needed. So no added value in cutting up the fam flight. 
 

these are basic maneuvers but these are the foundation of later flights. I see some YT playthroughs where people try to pull 20+ aoa in a turn, or need to watch the instrument panel during an egg and lose sight of the bogey. So the fam flight is quite an important one. 

[Kharrn]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Reflected:

I thought about that too but I also wanted at least one full mission

I figured it’s easy for the player to practice, you just open a free flight mission, nothing else needed. So no added value in cutting up the fam flight. 
 

these are basic maneuvers but these are the foundation of later flights. I see some YT playthroughs where people try to pull 20+ aoa in a turn, or need to watch the instrument panel during an egg and lose sight of the bogey. So the fam flight is quite an important one. 

true in all points! and thanks for the reply. FAM flight was nice but especially event 2 (1v1) gave me a sh* lot to think about! i knew the pursuit techniques before, but with the lag role and the egg, its just soooooo much fun. Especially with the G effects! I LOVE THEM! feels so immersive!

now i just need to learn to focus on the bandit during the egg. in VR its much better i think (cant play VR atm) but in 2D with Tobii tracker its hard to stay on the bandit or to keep flying correctly without watch the instruments briefly....

But the campaigns wants me to re-fly and train anyway  had to quit before the RTB and in the campaign it says "2a departure" -> draw. Pressed "skip" jsut to look what will happen and then it shows "3a departure" JFYI. Gonna refly later

having a great time so far!

[PawlaczGMD]

Yeah, you should have enough fuel with a safe margin. I did extra maneuvers, and messed up by not keeping track of the range location, so ended up way north for RTB, still made it back.

[Byzantine_SK]

I agree the campaign is too fragile and unforgiving. It’s the triggers and sequence requirements that cause the missions to get hung up and turn “fun” into “frustrating”. As an example, complete pre-start checks, engine start “by the book” but a trigger is missed by me (out of order check who knows?) and the AI aircraft won’t taxi ahead of me. Mission won’t progress. This campaign is on rails and if you miss ONE thing out of order - it’s buggered. I’ve read some very positive comments but as a DCS player with +650 hours / this was not fun. Hugely disappointed. No, frustrated would be the better word. For now, I’m relying on DCS user files and hoping a good Yom Kippur campaign will release in the future. Reflected, the passion and commitment to realism is appreciated but the mission triggers are TOO uncompromising.