Using Process Lasso to assign e-cores

[The_Nephilim]

Hey Guys,

 

I just got a 12700K and was eager to test out the ecores. well so far I think when playing DCS some of the ecores get assigned work for the P-Cores and it introduced Lag in to DCS I never had before..

what are others thoughts on doing this?

So I thought of using Process Lasso to assign all the other Processes to the E-Cores alone and I think it worked rather well. I am going to have to do some more testing but when I looked at the graph this is what I saw in a MP mission in Pretense with about 37 players last night:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had also tried to disable the Hyper Threads and just assign the P-Cores to DCS.exe..

Edited August 30, 2024 by The_Nephilim

[LucShep]

Pardon for the long post, but I hope this silly dissertation on the matter can help somehow.
Process Lasso is indeed a must have for Intel 12th, 13th and 14th gen processors. But, so is the understanding of the P-Cores and E-Cores duality.

I would not recommend disabling neither Hyper-Threading or E-Cores, because there's a lot of useful extra performance in those (direct and indirect, I'll explain next why, IMO), and Process Lasso can also play a role here. 

Those four puny E-Cores in your i7 12700K (I also have one, excelent CPU) are far weaker than the eight P-Cores, matter of fact, but they are pretty comparable to an i5 6600K. 

There's been a lot of misunderstanding in the usefulness of the P-Cores and E-cores, especially with these latter ones "what they're good for". 
The E-Cores in a gaming PC are to be almost perceived as a "second processor" assisting the "main processor" (the P-Cores), many haven't understood that yet. 

You can have direct benefit in non-gaming apps (for actual work or hobby), by adding the E-Cores smaller power and core count to the P-Cores, setting affinity to all cores.

You can have indirect benefit in games - in this case by setting all the extra background apps stuff instead to the E-Cores (and exclude such apps from the P-Cores), i.e, so that the E-Cores can "carry that burden" off of the P-Cores, to make these last ones more "prepared" and even stronger for your games (and then set games on the P-Cores only). 

For example, placing every little extra app running in the background (that is, ones not of Windows OS) only on the E-Cores (f.ex, Discord, HWINFO, Afterburner, RivaTuner, the controllers and peripherals software, AntiVirus, Firewall, etc, etc) while gaming with all the P-Cores free of the burden or hiccups of those programs.
Therefore the P-Cores become unnaffected by that stuff, clean and lean to run any games set exclusively on them. <--- a major benefit so often uncomprehended.

Just remember to always keep the Windows OS processes as Process Lasso already have them (let it do its own magic with those) - this is key, IMO.

So, resuming, the P-Cores and E-Cores duality can be the best of both worlds, all depending on situation. It's about separating or combining tasks, or not at all (in the P-Cores/E-Cores environment) depending on the purpose and, effectively, getting the most out of the system, almost ideally in my opinion. 
It's all a matter of setting such rules if necessary, and only once, from them on automatized - and why Process Lasso is so good for these processors.

Now back to Process Lasso.....

Opinions vary but, for me and for gaming, the things that I always do (and needs to be done only once) for all my games is:
 

1.  Got to "Options / Power / Performance Mode" and include the game's executable (browse to game's directory and add the game's .EXE to list).
   This enables a higher power plan (performance benefits) whenever you run such program (game, etc) added to that list, reverting to whatever that was when you close it.
    
2. Run the game for the first time... Alt+Tab... back to Process Lasso, and in the game's executable (listed among all the others), right click and change or tick these options:
   
   - CPU Affinity / "Always" / "Select CPU Affinity" / change to "P-Cores" and click ok
   - Induce Performance Mode (checked)
   - Exclude from ProBalance (checked)
   
   *side note:  there's the odd game that likes to run in 'High Priority' -- for that, if necessary, also do "CPU Priority" / "Always" /  change to "High"

After all set, I select the option "Restart" in the game's executable, in Process Lasso (to restart the game in full screen and see how it goes).

If all is good... those settings were already automatically saved, will be automatized for the next time.  

In my experience, only a few games benefit (or even require) the use all of the cores (P-Cores + E-cores).
For example, I recall so with most recent open world games by Ubisoft (AC Origins even requires so, or won't even load, IIRC).

But all games that so far I've ran (appart from those odd ones), all including DCS benefit from having assigned only the P-Cores.
Which makes sense, because these are much stronger and it then maintains a steady higher clock and IPC. 

BTW, and specifically in DCS' case, there have been ocasions (depends on release/update) where I felt (YMMV) that leaving one of the P-Cores unnasigned (or unticked in affinity) somehow helps with frametimes in VR. I have no idea why. In this particular case, what I mean is leaving all P-Cores enabled, except for the first P-core/thread (CPU0 and CPU1) or the last P-core/thread (CPU14 and CPU15).  And again, no E-Cores enabled for it, only P-Cores for DCS.

Edited August 31, 2024 by LucShep

[The_Nephilim]

Hey LucShep,

 

Thank you for the right up but one thing has me thinking this right here is a quote from you:

 

"Just remember to always keep the Windows OS processes as Process Lasso already have them (let it do its own magic with those) - this is key, IMO."

 

Now does that mean the Processes in Process lasso whos user is SYSTEM?

 

Other then that I think I have everything set as you said. the reason I had the HT disabled I was doing tests with it off and on to see which one worked better in DCS..

[LucShep]

15 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

Thank you for the right up but one thing has me thinking this right here is a quote from you:

"Just remember to always keep the Windows OS processes as Process Lasso already have them (let it do its own magic with those) - this is key, IMO."

Now does that mean the Processes in Process lasso whos user is SYSTEM?

Other then that I think I have everything set as you said. the reason I had the HT disabled I was doing tests with it off and on to see which one worked better in DCS..

I mean every process that is considered part of the operating system.

You can see those listed in the column "Application name [claimed]" (and you can sort the order for easier assortment).

Those that imediately pop in my mind are all those labelled there with "Microsoft Windows Operating System" and "Operating System Microsoft Windows".
And the Windows directly related services as well (ok, one may argue that these last ones can be somewhat tweaked, but better not mess with those).
All of these are better left for Process Lasso itself.  If the intention was to tweak those, perhaps better suggest starting with this first: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

Also, the GPU related ones (NVIDIA or AMD), and INTEL related ones such as as "Management Engine" and "Dynamic Application", are better also left for Process Lasso itself.

If you have 3rd parties processes in the background stealing resources that could instead be "carried" solely by the E-Cores (as previously said, and f.ex, Discord, HWINFO, Afterburner, RivaTuner, the controllers and peripherals software, AntiVirus, Firewall, etc, etc) it's a good idea to try so, as it'll free the P-Cores of any hiccups from those.  
Smooth gaming, free of stuttering.

PS: almost forgot, this is also a good complement to Process Lasso: https://bitsum.com/parkcontrol/

Edited August 31, 2024 by LucShep

[The_Nephilim]

yes I had both those programs. unparking cores is a plus..

 

I am just wondering if I wanted to just put most the Processes on the ecores? It seemed to have worked fine like that before but I have only done about 4 hours of tests, I am wondering if maybe some of those spike I got last nights MP session were due to the fact that I had most all processes on the ecores and when it was time to pay the piper it coould not cash the check..

 

I am going to be playing sunday night with the guys and can test again there. I will check out the other MP servers tomorrow..

 

Thank you this is all good stuff..

[LucShep]

12 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

I am just wondering if I wanted to just put most the Processes on the ecores? It seemed to have worked fine like that before but I have only done about 4 hours of tests, I am wondering if maybe some of those spike I got last nights MP session were due to the fact that I had most all processes on the ecores and when it was time to pay the piper it coould not cash the check..

I am going to be playing sunday night with the guys and can test again there. I will check out the other MP servers tomorrow..

Thank you this is all good stuff..

Whatever you do, make sure you can revert back to whatever/however it was, if things become "not so good".

You can export your current configuration (as backup, which you can import back). And/or you can create a different profile to mess around.
You can do that, in Process Lasso, by clicking "File" (at the top) and access such options. 

The thing with Process Lasso and operating system processes is that its creator(s) already has/have done all the required work on those for us, or at least that's my conclusion.

I remember this same discussion when it came out (early 2010s?) and were testing exactly what you're thinking there.
Back then it was with Intel Xeon and HEDT processors with 6c/12t (most games then only used one or two cores), and we were allocating processes to cores/threads not used by the games, with these then set on cores freed from such work of background tasks.
So, basically the very same concept we're talking here, difference being that the E-Cores work at a fraction of energy consumption, ideal for this "carry the burden" stuff.

There were imediate improvements in the gaming experience when it was done for 3rd party apps (like already mentioned).
However, it was also imediately noticed that many system processes are scheduled in ways that are better left as they were - it seems the creator(s) of Windows, and also the creator(s) of Process Lasso, seem to have all the investigation and testing done right, and got those at their best already.

Changing affinity, or priority, in operating system processes would impact overall performance (and still does when I tested it again in my 12700K).
It needs (and its processes) to be given access to the best performance, how, when, and if, the OS scheduler requires it, to make everything tip-top.  And that makes sense - the operating system processes are the basis for everything and whatever is going on, when you're using your computer.

Edited August 31, 2024 by LucShep

[The_Nephilim]

Yes I have it all set where the windows operating system processes have access to all cores. makes perfect sense and it seemed I was able to get my Reverb G2 to 100% @ 60Hz which before I did this was at 70% rez..

 

So it was a good improvement over the stock way.. 

[The_Nephilim]

Well I had tried a MP Mission and ran into some high frametimes that were 20ms way to high for smooth gameplay in VR. I am unsure if it was the 1st PCore running at max percentage or just that it was a bit too busy ingame. I think I am going to try and put all the windows processes back on the E cores it seemed to have ran smoother then..

 

I will 1st try a Rez reduction back to 80% which will still be higher then the 60-70% I had gotten before.. I am unsure if it was the server but I think it was me and the resolution was too high..

 

Going to test @ 80% Rez and the windows OS Proc. on all cores..

Edited August 31, 2024 by The_Nephilim

[Keith Briscoe]

@The_Nephilim have you tried un-ticking core 8, but keep all other p-cores?
I've seen this mentioned, I've tried it, and it massively cleaned up micro-stutters for me.

[Keith Briscoe]

@LucShep In the All Processes tab, I really cannot tell which are the Win / OS processes.  Is it possible it is

WmiPrvSE.exe seems to have some cpu load when nothing else is going on
wininit.exe, winlogon.exe
i have a lot of svchost.exe files/programs
 

[The_Nephilim]

19 minutes ago, Keith Briscoe said:

@The_Nephilim have you tried un-ticking core 8, but keep all other p-cores?
I've seen this mentioned, I've tried it, and it massively cleaned up micro-stutters for me.

Yes I tried this it did not work.. I am in the Process of going back to Win 10 Pro.. lets keey fingers crossed Win 11 has been a disaster so far..

16 minutes ago, Keith Briscoe said:

@LucShep In the All Processes tab, I really cannot tell which are the Win / OS processes.  Is it possible it is

WmiPrvSE.exe seems to have some cpu load when nothing else is going on
wininit.exe, winlogon.exe
i have a lot of svchost.exe files/programs
 

Hey In ProcessLasso window you may need to scroll right there is a column named "Application Named Claimed" in there you will see if it is a Windoes OS Process like so:

 

 

 

[LucShep]

6 hours ago, Keith Briscoe said:

@LucShep In the All Processes tab, I really cannot tell which are the Win / OS processes.  Is it possible it is

WmiPrvSE.exe seems to have some cpu load when nothing else is going on
wininit.exe, winlogon.exe
i have a lot of svchost.exe files/programs
 

As said above, you can see those listed in the column "Application name [claimed]" (click in it, to sort the order for easier assortment).

As for those Windows OS processes....

Winlogon.exe
This is a critical part of the login process and needs to remain running in the background. It has special hooks into the system and watches to see if you press Ctrl+Alt+Delete.
It also ensures you're signing in on a secure desktop where other programs can't monitor the password you're typing. And it also monitors your keyboard+mouse activity and is responsible for locking your PC after a period of inactivity.
.....your call, but the only thing I'd ever do to this process is change its CPU priority to "Below normal", and nothing else. Otherwise, leave as it is in Process Lasso.

Wininit.exe 
This is a Windows Start-Up application (Windows Initialization) and is used by many programs to perform an action while the computer is still booting.  
When you boot your computer, wininit.exe is created by the smss.exe, which will then create lsass.exe (Local Security Authority Subsystem), services.exe (Services Controller Manager), and lsm.exe (Local Session Manager). It creates Winlogon, Winsta0, and the temp folder. It is one of the essential processes of your system and it should not be stopped or messed with.
.....your call, but better not mess with it at all and leave as it is in Process Lasso.

WmiPrvSE.exe
This the WMI Provider Host process, part of what's known as the Windows Management Instrumentation (WMI), and therefore an important of the Windows operating system itself, so should be left alone. It often runs in the background, and allows other applications on your computer to request information about your system. 
It may occasionally use some CPU when another piece of software or script on your PC asks for information via WMI, and that's normal. High CPU usage is likely just a sign that another application is requesting data via WMI. If you have a problem with it, you need to identify the process that's causing the WMI Provider Host to use so much CPU, and update, remove, or disable that process instead.
.....your call, but better not mess with it at all and leave as it is in Process Lasso.

Svchost.exe
The purpose for svchost.exe is to, as the name would imply, host services. Windows uses it to group services that need access to the same DLLs to run in one process, helping to reduce their demand for system resources. This requires RAM and CPU power to run, so it’s normal to see the increased usage of svchost.exe, mainly when one of the services using Service Host is being used. It's also normal to see more than one instance of it.
If Service Host is slowing down your PC it may be because of Windows Update, and in this case you can stop downloading/installing updates, or disable the service entirely (there is a 3rd party freeware tool made for this). Or maybe Disk Defragmenter is defragmenting your hard drive (if you use HDDs), in which case Service Host will use more memory for that task.
.....your call, but better not mess with it at all and leave as it is in Process Lasso.

Edited September 1, 2024 by LucShep

[Keith Briscoe]

so helpful... thank you!!

[The_Nephilim]

Well I am testing Win 10 Pro and it seems a tiny bit better in the MP so far. I was getting about 11.4-11.6ms in win 11 and now I am getting 10.4-10.6ms in MP. but now when running Process Lasso it does not specify P- and E-Cores, they are just labeled as cores..

 

Now it did seem about .2ms better when letting Windows handle the affinity. I am going to try it again without affinity running and just letting windows do its thing.   I was expecting a little better and I guess this is about as good as it is going to get..

 

I had did a fresh install totally nuking both drives on my PC. So far not sure but I guess win 11 was ok just that win 10 is a bit smoother and lower Frametimes but not by much.. but I guess enough to make it 90FPS @ 90Hz with 80% Rez.

 

Now I am sure if I lower the HZ rate it will be fine but at 60Hz it seems ok just feels funny..I am going to do some benchmarks now and see where they stand..

 

Will do more testing but it is getting late right now. will do a few more tests and then shut down.. Benchmarksran but only 2 and it looksto be real close with Winn 11 edging Win 10 but another test I ran was the win for Win 10 so you could fudge numbers but in this case for my quick and dirty test I would say Tie.. but Win 1 is PITN and I like win 10 GUI!!..

 

I will have to run some more tests with DCS.. here are 2 screenshots 1st one is win 10 w/12700K sys in specs just different OS. 2nd pic is win 10:

 

Edited September 1, 2024 by The_Nephilim

[The_Nephilim]

On 8/31/2024 at 1:44 AM, LucShep said:

I mean every process that is considered part of the operating system.

You can see those listed in the column "Application name [claimed]" (and you can sort the order for easier assortment).

Those that imediately pop in my mind are all those labelled there with "Microsoft Windows Operating System" and "Operating System Microsoft Windows".
And the Windows directly related services as well (ok, one may argue that these last ones can be somewhat tweaked, but better not mess with those).
All of these are better left for Process Lasso itself.  If the intention was to tweak those, perhaps better suggest starting with this first: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

Also, the GPU related ones (NVIDIA or AMD), and INTEL related ones such as as "Management Engine" and "Dynamic Application", are better also left for Process Lasso itself.

If you have 3rd parties processes in the background stealing resources that could instead be "carried" solely by the E-Cores (as previously said, and f.ex, Discord, HWINFO, Afterburner, RivaTuner, the controllers and peripherals software, AntiVirus, Firewall, etc, etc) it's a good idea to try so, as it'll free the P-Cores of any hiccups from those.  
Smooth gaming, free of stuttering.

PS: almost forgot, this is also a good complement to Process Lasso: https://bitsum.com/parkcontrol/

 

Hey LucShep,

 

I had ran into a teething issue with the new PC and it turned out the OC needed more Voltage, I bumped it up to 1.330v it was then pretty solid stable. but that was just a bump in the road, the real issue is I did assign all the Procceses other then the ones that did not convert over it seems some processes can only stay on ALL cores, all the other Processes got assigned to the E-Cores and it seems to be working really well.

 

I am going to need to do further testing but I had a jump off tangent and ran into a voltage issue I had to resolve. so now that I think I am stable again I can continue testing to see if keeping all the Processes on the E-Cores will be viable.. but so far so good. I am currently running DCS in VR mode and monitoring the Process Lasso Program and what the e cores are doing..

So far they seem to be doing very little which is great.. I just need to get into a 2-3 hour session in DCS and see what happens..

 

EDIT:: another thing I noticed is that the HyperThread core #3 seems to be more busy then the rest of the Cores, I wonder why? shouldn't the main core be set at more % usage then a hyper thread?

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by The_Nephilim

[LucShep]

4 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

Hey LucShep,

I had ran into a teething issue with the new PC and it turned out the OC needed more Voltage, I bumped it up to 1.330v it was then pretty solid stable. but that was just a bump in the road, the real issue is I did assign all the Procceses other then the ones that did not convert over it seems some processes can only stay on ALL cores, all the other Processes got assigned to the E-Cores and it seems to be working really well.

12700K OC, 1.33v?  
What clocks on P-Cores, E-Cores ? Are you using fixed or offset CPU Core Voltage (VCore) ? 
What Ring clock size and what SA voltage?
Are you making sure the LLC is at least on "4" to get closer to optimal V-Droop? (can make all the difference for OC)
 

4 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

EDIT:: another thing I noticed is that the HyperThread core #3 seems to be more busy then the rest of the Cores, I wonder why? shouldn't the main core be set at more % usage then a hyper thread?

 

I wouldn't worry too much about it, honestly. 
But, nonetheless, if it's constantly like that, then it would be interesting to see which process(es) are spiking that particular core/thread on the CPU.  (FWIW, I have no such issue here)

Edited September 3, 2024 by LucShep

[The_Nephilim]

11 hours ago, LucShep said:

12700K OC, 1.33v?  
What clocks on P-Cores, E-Cores ? Are you using fixed or offset CPU Core Voltage (VCore) ?  ""P - cores = 5.0ghz all --  Ecores = 4.0ghz all  -- fixed voltage at 1.330.. which is fine.""
What Ring clock size and what SA voltage?  "" ring at 4.3ghz. auto for voltage""
Are you making sure the LLC is at least on "4" to get closer to optimal V-Droop? (can make all the difference for OC)""  I might be on 3 but I will check..""
 

I wouldn't worry too much about it, honestly. 
But, nonetheless, if it's constantly like that, then it would be interesting to see which process(es) are spiking that particular core/thread on the CPU.  (FWIW, I have no such issue here)

 

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by The_Nephilim

[The_Nephilim]

On 9/3/2024 at 1:17 PM, The_Nephilim said:

 

 

Well I am guessing with Process Lasso running and my PC Parts OC like they are I am getting all I am going to get out of my system. I had also reduced the amount of Processes running on Windows, I think I am down to like 85 from 135..

 

Other then trying to tweak DCS a bit more I am balls out with my gear.. I had bought some faster ram and probally gonna try to OC that a bit more then the XMP PRofile as the RAM I have now is not a good OC Potential..

 

Maybe when the 5xxx series and intel 15th gen I may upgrade next  year but proball not..

[LucShep]

4 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

Well I am guessing with Process Lasso running and my PC Parts OC like they are I am getting all I am going to get out of my system. I had also reduced the amount of Processes running on Windows, I think I am down to like 85 from 135..

Other then trying to tweak DCS a bit more I am balls out with my gear.. I had bought some faster ram and probally gonna try to OC that a bit more then the XMP PRofile as the RAM I have now is not a good OC Potential..

Maybe when the 5xxx series and intel 15th gen I may upgrade next  year but proball not..

I hear ya  Yes Intel 15th gen and Nvidia RTX5000 series are tempting (me too keeping an eye on launch reviews and prices), but I think you too have good hardware already.
I doubt I'm alone when thinking that it's the game here to be blamed, for not running all that great in VR.
 

[SharpeXB]

TL;DR

Shouldn't Windows or DCS assign all this automatically? Why would it be necessary to mess with the cores on your own?

”About half of P-cores are dedicated for the graphics needs. Currently the rendering pool scales up to 16 threads on P-cores (1 core = 2 threads). The other P-cores are used by the main logic thread, sound engine threads, and the auxiliary thread pool that occupy all available space. E-cores are used only by the resources streaming pool that has no limits (1 core = 1 thread).”

My game runs totally fine without doing anything like this. 

Edited September 6, 2024 by SharpeXB

[The_Nephilim]

well not in Win 10, Win 11 is a little better at it but I stil had issues in win 11 with the DCS assigning ecores to pcores tasks..

 

This way I know for sure what core is doing what..

[Ramstein]

I am definitely buy a new Nvidia 5080 when it comes out! no more suffering!!!