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Help getting highest INS accuracy for pre-planned popups


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Posted (edited)

Continuing my test from this post, same mission, date 1994, unrestricted SATNAV off, GPS switch off, stored heading align for the sake of test consistency (5.2/10 when NAV selected). Takeoff and STPT timing +/- 3 minutes of original test.

FIX still does not update the entire flightplan. It will update the selected STPT, but it will not update the position of subsequent STPTs. E.g. making a FIX with a delta of 0.08nm on STPT 1 requires the same 0.08nm FIX to STPT 2~6. STPT 2~6 should have been adjusted by the same 0.08nm delta, however they are not. Despite taking two fixes before my attack run, VRPCCRP symbology, TD box, and aim-off-point were still hundreds of feet off target, and not within tolerances to be used for their intended purpose.

Edited by Nealius
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Posted
19 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

Neither are "bugs", one is a possible deviation on the Kalman filter logics and we're testing the data and will update the logics if needed. The other is a feature not yet available in IDM weapons we're working to implement in the near future. 

Just to be extra clear, is the error that my test has shown the intended value or not?

Posted
2 hours ago, Nealius said:

FIX still does not update the entire flightplan. It will update the selected STPT, but it will not update the position of subsequent STPTs.

I don't think you've reached the right conclusion. If this were true and easily reproducible, you could show it with a short, simple track. For what it's worth, FIX (in non-GPS environment) has worked every time I've used it between late 2022 and now, just tested today in Caucasus and Kola. Map is also something worth mentioning in any posts/reports.

There might be something in play in here with the nav system, INS, GPS and Kalman filter, but I don't think "FIX does not update the entire flightplan" is correct, so any issues there might be, are likely something else.

Consider what you're trying to test/prove/disprove and maybe re-consider the test methodology and reporting. Tracks are really useful for everyone, and ED pretty much just ignores bug reports without tracks. This thread and your post wasn't a bug report per se, so no fault there, but so you know, they're useful for rest of us, too.

Posted
Quote

I don't think you've reached the right conclusion. ....[it] has worked every time I've used it between late 2022 and now

The absolute irony of this statement. "Works for me then it must be a you problem." Knock yourself out with this track. Or any of the other multiple tracks I've supplied in the thread.

 

Posted
On 10/24/2024 at 1:03 AM, Default774 said:

I think you are confusing the viper with another aircraft. You have to do no such thing in the viper

You still need to put the TGP into a tracking mode either point or area. Per my sources you can do TMS up short to go into point track or you can do TMS Up long to go into PT. This will remain true for the Sniper once we get that as well. Trust me I know the SPI is automatically updated with the TGP when in PRE modes for the F16. 
 

It is a bit old but will remain true like I said for the Sniper as well.

https://youtu.be/MvQB6tVK-S4?t=562

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Posted (edited)

Another short track, GPS-era, GPS on, hitting ships spaced 5nm apart. Starting aircraft has waypoints shifted about 10nm away from where they should be. As can be observed, each fix gradually moves the STPT closer to where it should be (note delta ranges getting smaller, but still miles off), but it is not where it should be until I've taken six fixes. It isn't even shifted far enough to be visible in the HUD until the 3rd or 4th fix. After conducting six fixes, STPT 7 is finally on target, however STPT 8 and 9 are for some reason still drifted a few hundred feet. Why is the same delta not being applied to all steerpoints on the first fix?

And here's an example where it works as I would expect it to (INS era, "drift" of about 250ft as I frequently get in my missions). This is exactly how I expect it to work, but in my ramp-start Kola missions it does not; per this track. I assume that if there were an issue with my alignment during startup someone would have pointed that out by now. Though it seems I'm supplying tracks that no one bothers to check.

Edited by Nealius
Posted
2 hours ago, Nealius said:

The absolute irony of this statement. "Works for me then it must be a you problem." Knock yourself out with this track. Or any of the other multiple tracks I've supplied in the thread.

For some reason you're combative and just grossly misrepresented what I said. You realize people can just look it up and see exactly what I said and how I said it? I explicitly said that since that one thing you claimed isn't true, the issues might be in somewhere else in the systems: "There might be something in play in here with the nav system, INS, GPS and Kalman filter".

I don't know why, but since you seem to feel like fighting instead of learning, I'll just leave you to it.

Posted
8 hours ago, itn said:

For some reason you're combative and just grossly misrepresented what I said. You realize people can just look it up and see exactly what I said and how I said it? I explicitly said that since that one thing you claimed isn't true, the issues might be in somewhere else in the systems: "There might be something in play in here with the nav system, INS, GPS and Kalman filter".

I'm not combatitive, I'm pointing out that you never read my posts in this thread nor checked the multitude of tracks I posted, while repeating stuff I've already said days ago and telling me to post tracks, which I already have.

I'm not combative, I'm frustrated. The thread was derailed by irrelevant talk about JDAMs, then merged with that JDAM issue to further confuse the topic, I've been spending HOURS doing the beta tester's job and supplying tracks which no one bloody checks all to be ignored and invalidated. 

8 hours ago, itn said:

I don't know why, but since you seem to feel like fighting instead of learning, I'll just leave you to it.

You have it backwards. Everyone here wants to accuse the user instead of teaching or investigating potential problems, as evidenced by the fact I have gotten zero feedback on any of the multiple track files I've posted.

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Posted
On 10/29/2024 at 12:11 PM, Lord Vader said:

First of all, there are two separate items in this thread, one related to the other, but not the same. One has to do with how the INS+GPS system works using the Kalman filter. Another is the information IDMs receive from the MMC and the ability of the ammunition to self-correct, which is not really related to the F-16C INS.

Neither are "bugs", one is a possible deviation on the Kalman filter logics and we're testing the data and will update the logics if needed. The other is a feature not yet available in IDM weapons we're working to implement in the near future. 

This is not a good reply. You've implemented some kind of drift that makes all preplanned JDAMs miss (among other issues reported here), but the feature to correct it is somewhere in the near future (we all know what that means), and you don't consider it a bug?

The fact is JDAMs in preplanned are useless in the F-16 right now. I would think that if you want to implement INS drift and Kalman filter logic (which is great!), you would also implement related systems (IDM self-correction) at the same time. How can you implement drift only but not a way to fix it? Again, JDAMs in preplanned are useless right now, which is kind of a big issue. It breaks paid campaigns among other things, and the campaign devs have no way of doing anything about it.

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Posted
11 hours ago, Nealius said:

Another short track, GPS-era, GPS on, hitting ships spaced 5nm apart. Starting aircraft has waypoints shifted about 10nm away from where they should be. As can be observed, each fix gradually moves the STPT closer to where it should be (note delta ranges getting smaller, but still miles off), but it is not where it should be until I've taken six fixes. It isn't even shifted far enough to be visible in the HUD until the 3rd or 4th fix. After conducting six fixes, STPT 7 is finally on target, however STPT 8 and 9 are for some reason still drifted a few hundred feet. Why is the same delta not being applied to all steerpoints on the first fix?

And here's an example where it works as I would expect it to (INS era, "drift" of about 250ft as I frequently get in my missions). This is exactly how I expect it to work, but in my ramp-start Kola missions it does not; per this track. I assume that if there were an issue with my alignment during startup someone would have pointed that out by now. Though it seems I'm supplying tracks that no one bothers to check.

 

I would watch the track if I had the map. That is why ED suggests you to only do Caucasus IF possible. Not that you have to, but when someone doesn't have the map you are testing then you can't get mad when your track doesn't get watch.

So before I watch that first track you mentioned what map is it on? I'm not going to waste my time downloading a track if it is on a map that I don't have. I have every map but Kola and Normandy.

The second track you mentioned sounds like it is on Kola so I cannot watch that one.

But as I mentioned in another forum about what seems to be a similar problem "In order to perform a FIX/update certain factors must be met, and they can include: SYS ACCUR, GPS ACCUR, and GPS TRK/NOTRK. Now assuming normal GPS values of <50 feet and GPS in track, the Blended KF will have more confidence in GPS-aiding than a 300ft fix/update. But once the SHE exceeds 300ft for whatever reason, then a fix/update on a known stpt may be recommended. The position delta is estimated from the coords of the stpt. That delta is displayed to you on the FIX page."

And as well as,"The 38 we currently have on the F16 is not fully "equipped" with the full GPS package so no, it will not update as it should once it is released from the aircraft. So, without it you are going to see some weird behaviors which yes, is normal, but as you can see in the picture it is still accurate."

Bottomline is the 38 or 31 currently is not going to be as accurate with a preplanned stpt currently. 

 See this forum to see where I posted a picture of me dropping 47 GBU-38s over a 30-minute period. This was done without a FIX ever being done and with a good amount of drift occurring over that period. Granted I did use a TGP, but my next tests will be done with the TGP again because we just had an update, and I will also run them with a preplanned stpt. I will also increase the time from 30 minutes to an hour if possible. I will also do various distances as well. This first test was done at angels 18, 6NM from the Target at speed of 450kts, bomb impact angle was set to 75 degrees in order to ensure a straight down impact point. Out of 47 bombs 27 hit or came extremely close to the target. But you will see not a single bomb fell outside that 80x60 box. And right now, just with this one test alone the JDAM fell within the 30m CEP and quite a few more fell within the 5m CEP. 

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Posted
12 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

This is not a good reply. You've implemented some kind of drift that makes all preplanned JDAMs miss (among other issues reported here), but the feature to correct it is somewhere in the near future (we all know what that means), and you don't consider it a bug?

The fact is JDAMs in preplanned are useless in the F-16 right now. I would think that if you want to implement INS drift and Kalman filter logic (which is great!), you would also implement related systems (IDM self-correction) at the same time. How can you implement drift only but not a way to fix it? Again, JDAMs in preplanned are useless right now, which is kind of a big issue. It breaks paid campaigns among other things, and the campaign devs have no way of doing anything about it.

Thanks, you explained it perfectly. I'm flying the Gamblers pay campaign and it's frustrating that, after an hour of mission, and at this point of F16's development, a jdam fails by several meters, as if not to call it a "bug". Drift? Ok, for someone who started flying Chuck's Yeagers Air Combat it's crazy to be able to fly a simulator in which an aspect like drift is taken into account, and for that and for everything I thank you ED, but  @BIGNEWY please, value the criticality of this in its fair measure and fix it as soon as possible.

Posted

Just finished the first of many tests today. This was done with using the STPT only. No other sensors like TGP or FCR was used. A picture of the HUD is included to show the amount of drift that occurred over the hour of dropping. This was only the GBU-38. The black line circles are every 10ft starting at 20ft. image.png

JDAM test 1 with GPS.png

 

My next test will be done with no GPS available in the mission and again only using the STPT.

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Posted

This one was done prior to the update and the TGP was used and was only done for 30 minutes. image.png

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Posted

My thinking may be off, apologies.  What is the JDAM CEP (Circular Error Probable) and can the DCS F-16 with no TGP achieve it?

 

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Posted

Reason may have to adjust DMPI (Desired Mean Point of Impact) in DCS Mission Editor for direct JDAM hit with DCS F-16. 

I read CEP for JDAM 49m

 

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Posted
5 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

This one was done prior to the update and the TGP was used and was only done for 30 minutes. image.png

I appreciate your test, but in practice, in the Gamblers campaign, my accuracy was way lower - I wasn't hitting large buildings in preplanned mode.

I would agree that in your test, the accuracy is acceptable, but there must be more to it, as people are having the same complaints as me in that campaign. 

Posted

BLUF, JDAM fine but even with GPS you still have INS Drift in DCS F-16.

So, if my target is 200NM away plan accordingly.

I get it now Thanks

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Posted
On 10/31/2024 at 10:14 AM, SpecterDC13 said:

So before I watch that first track you mentioned what map is it on?

I specifically said Kola in the very first post of the thread. And again on the 10th post, where I posted the initial track file. And again on the 13th post. 

Posted
12 minutes ago, Nealius said:

I specifically said Kola in the very first post of the thread. And again on the 10th post, where I posted the initial track file. And again on the 13th post. 

Ok, and like I said, how do you expect me or anyone else to watch a track if we don't have the map? Do whatever tests you want to do on Caucasus and then send me that track so I can see your claim. But I am taking the time to do these tests and as seen above and if you want the tracks to see for yourself, I can send them, and you can see for yourself. The only downside is the track is an hour long so not sure if it will work correctly but I think it will. I have more tests to run which will include doing the test without GPS enabled. So, if you want you can see what those results are.

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Posted
16 hours ago, Pillowcat said:

Combined picture of tests for victims of spatial cretinism like me:

  Hide contents

combinedTest.jpg

 

This is so trippy to look at, but you can definitely see the difference. Thank you for doing that. I will be posting more if you would like to do it with the others lol

15 hours ago, ruddy122 said:

My thinking may be off, apologies.  What is the JDAM CEP (Circular Error Probable) and can the DCS F-16 with no TGP achieve it?

 

Realistically, once we get the GPS inside the JDAM it should be 5M CEP. Currently as you can see majority fall within the 5M and 13M CEP with about three falling outside as of this new update and with using NO TGP. That was all done (big red circle pic) with only dropping on the STPT. 

15 hours ago, ruddy122 said:

Reason may have to adjust DMPI (Desired Mean Point of Impact) in DCS Mission Editor for direct JDAM hit with DCS F-16. 

I read CEP for JDAM 49m

 

Where did you read 49M? It shouldn't be any more than 30M under the worse conditions, most of the time. There are some factors that may affect that, but you should always see it land near the target or on the target as you see in the picture.

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Posted
12 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I appreciate your test, but in practice, in the Gamblers campaign, my accuracy was way lower - I wasn't hitting large buildings in preplanned mode.

I would agree that in your test, the accuracy is acceptable, but there must be more to it, as people are having the same complaints as me in that campaign. 

Can you give me the scenario? I don't have the campaign and have been hearing some weird things.

Info that would help:

- Mission Date & Time

- Distance/Altitude/Speed to target when releasing JDAM. (Which JDAM 38 or 31?)

- Weather

- Any onboard sensors being used? (FCR, TGP, HUD, JHMCS)

- GPS available? (I would assume so, but you never know)

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Posted
5 minutes ago, SpecterDC13 said:

Can you give me the scenario? I don't have the campaign and have been hearing some weird things.

Info that would help:

- Mission Date & Time

- Distance/Altitude/Speed to target when releasing JDAM. (Which JDAM 38 or 31?)

- Weather

- Any onboard sensors being used? (FCR, TGP, HUD, JHMCS)

- GPS available? (I would assume so, but you never know)

Looking at the briefing for that mission:

- 14 Apr 2015 on Syria

- altitude around 20-25k ft, speed around 300-350 kts IAS, I release at around 10-20% into the max "dynamic launch zone" or whatever it's called for JDAMs. It's a GBU-31.

- normal weather with heavy clouds

- no sensors used, because of full cloud coverage. Just release on STPT that is preloaded from the mission ( I didn't need to enter it manually)

- I assume GPS is available. I think I remember checking INS accuracy and both INS and GPS were very high. I switched it on.

 

Posted
1 minute ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Looking at the briefing for that mission:

- 14 Apr 2015 on Syria

- altitude around 20-25k ft, speed around 300-350 kts IAS, I release at around 10-20% into the max "dynamic launch zone" or whatever it's called for JDAMs. It's a GBU-31.

- normal weather with heavy clouds

- no sensors used, because of full cloud coverage. Just release on STPT that is preloaded from the mission ( I didn't need to enter it manually)

- I assume GPS is available. I think I remember checking INS accuracy and both INS and GPS were very high. I switched it on.

 

Much appreciated. I will test this out. But in the meantime, read this and try adjusting and let me know your results please.

Go into the mission briefing area before going into the mission and make sure the stpt is at the base of the target (so at whatever side of the building you will be coming from). Also verify the coordinates both in the mission brief and on your DED Nav page to ensure they match to include elevation.

So the max range for the GBU-31 is 15NM under the right conditions (doing about 450-475 KCAS @25000ft, and hopefully no headwind). If you are doing 300-350 you are making that distance shrink down to about 5 to 8nm, so I would have to guess you're dropping inside that? Which is fine if you are trying to achieve a top-down attack on the target. I would still suggest bumping the speed up though and you can still drop at no less than 6NM. 

So it would look like this:

-25000ft MSL

-450-475KCAS (I know damage to weapons isn't implemented but try not to exceed .98 Mach if you can help it lol)

-set your Impact Angle on the control page to 75-80 degrees. (This will ensure a more top-down attack. If you set this and try release at 10nm the bomb will not achieve these angles on impact)

Try that and let me know the results please. I will test your scenario out in the meantime. 

 

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Posted
2 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

Ok, and like I said, how do you expect me or anyone else to watch a track if we don't have the map?

The PR managers/beta testers/officials I was interacting with have all the terrains. Nowhere did I expect people other than them, nor specifically you, to have Kola. 

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