Best PC manufacturers for flight sim?

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

@SharpeXB

Can you handle a screwdriver, are able to identify sockets and plugs and install programs?

Again you’re kinda oversimplifying things. Yes I can do that… with support. Not totally on my own. Key point there. And there are times when I simply don’t want to engage in something that’s going to be just super time consuming and frustrating. Installing a graphics card? Pretty easy. Maybe… Putting the entire machine together? No. I have my limits. And I’ve been gaming quite a while and am somewhat familiar with these things. But there was a time when I knew completely nothing about this at all. Many people fit that description out there and for them buying the entire machine is absolutely the best option. 

[kksnowbear]

14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But there was a time when I knew completely nothing about this at all. Many people fit that description out there and for them buying the entire machine is absolutely the best option. 

Yes, but these prebuilt machines cost $1000-2000 more than they should, accounting for parts used, and support.  Paying thousands more than a machine should cost (regardless of skill level with PCs) is not "best" for anyone.  It's not even a good idea. 

As outlined extensively in this thread, there are *far* less expensive options for buying an entire machine (if that's required), with better components and equal or better support.

Edited October 21, 2024 by kksnowbear

[BitMaster]

Support ≠ Support

It really matters what kind of helping hand one needs.

The service you can expect from a local, in person if needed, technician can and should exceed what you can expect from ANY of the big names you can come up with and here is why:

It is almsot given that none of the technicians is per se allowed to work on any of your devices other than what they sold and even that has it's very strict limits. They will tell you to move/copy/paste/delete/install etc. on your machine but likely not do it themselves, none of the ones I need to work with. They are all friendly, always nice talks for hours, BUT there is a limit how far they are allowed to interact and how far they can reach ( Hardware wise, LAN wise ).

 

Example:  You have a network issue while gaming, no own knowledge, all you know is "IT DAMN DOESNT RELIABLY WORK ! DANG !!"

The only thing your SLA ( Service Level Agreement ) Partner will do is check if you have the latest drivers as listed on their page and if your IP settings make sense, based on the Network Info you provide or he can retrieve and maybe a little more in your OS..maybe...and there the problem may arise... the problem could well be a switch, a not-so-good-configured Router, a Smart-TV in your LAN, a damn Printer misfiring in LAN...likely NONE of those would be covered or detected/fixed, THAT'S WHY businesses have SLA with vendors, DELL/HP/LENOVO/CISCO etc..  and ALSO a either local administrator for such things as outlined above or you need to find one LOCALLY to bridge the gap. This a defacto standard scenario in ANY office and really also applies to Home Computers and Gaming Rigs with SLA.

SLA is good for:   My Monitor is black !

                             The case squeeks  and is loud, HELP !

                             It constantly crashes to BSOD !

                             My drive died, waahaaa !

                             Part A, B or C failed, replace 4h NBD

 

SLA is not so good for:

You know; I got this PC from you last week and know that I have hooked up my Hotas ( 3x USB minimum ), VR goggles/TiR, installed half a dozen or more apps and connected plenty USB that thing behaves strange in my game, the FPS dont match what they should, my VR doesnt work, The Throttle constantly disconnects, USB device A,B or C doesnt work as intended, the LED software from my 150$ mouse doesnt work.....etc... most of those obstacles are likely not covered by any SLA you could ever sign up for, that's where the local guys and/or a forum can shine. 

Usually local guys know many common routers and also dare to dial in and check for obvious misconfigs, I do at least, and more often than not you can improve settings.

Network issues can be very tricky and you need to physically connect/disconnect devices or use network tools to find not-so-well configured settings and features.

Things that relate to software problems of foreign hardware, they will refuse to solve usually and point you to the other vendor, usually a "Their problem, not ours"

When I see problems as a technician, they are MY problems and I solve them or will be able to tell why I cannot fix it and show other HOPEFULLY  other way to solve it

but you don't hang up or leave through the door with unsolved problems.  OK, if you loose your PWD like a Lady I had as a customer, no one can help you, many mails and calls to MS

didnt help, sometimes the case is lost, that's true too.

 

One should understand what help he might need to not end up with a SLA that doesnt fit his needs but costs a fortune.

 

A lil story from last month, what a PITA it was and still is:

One of my clients' AV ran out and I suggested Acronis Cyber Protection Advanced for all Clients as a replacement to match the Server's AV and Backup Solution, so all will be under 1 nice umbrella. I realy like Acronis, never let me down on dark days but I know that it's GUI and Management Server can sometimes throw up and cause lots of hassle. 

I made a nice offer, below MSRP for 10 clients and offering free installation on all clients, no strings attached, FREE. no matter what it takes.

Well, through remote install features it installed in 10min on all 9 but not on the bosses 10th PC( whom elses could be worse ?! ).  I said, OK, lets do a manual on that one and be done. No !  by far not.

After a week of trying all my 15+ years of Acronis knowledge it still refused to register the client... it installed properly, always, just reg the client and the Mothership failed, constantly, regardless of what of the many install methods I took, deinstall scripts etc...  all nada.

OK, we paid for SLA, give'em a call !   A day later I had an appointment for a remote session, basically doing the same stuff I had done before, just to tick the boxes ! After that day, the 1st level guy gave up and handed me further up the ladder, with the 2nd level support I spent multiple multi-hour sessions to install that stupid client, always during DAY time whereas I usually work evening/nights so my Clients' work is not interrupted, now it was, from 1pm to 5pm for like 3 days, plus me doing things I got told later in the evenings, it just wouldnt show where it went wrong. The machine runs flawless in every other aspect, just not Acronis.

The thing got escaled to 3rd level support, basically doing the same stuff again, nothing I hadnt done on my own before calling HelpCenter. After some mails and efforts to try this and that they gave up ! Done.

I suggested that I reinstall the OS from scratch and likely it will all install just fine and we will never know what caused it.

I just wrote my quarterly invoice for that company today, none of that work is listed. Ethos & Pathos have given way to lesser values, pick one.   

 

Last resort is your local hero...and I am one of those idiots 

 

One more:

PBX-System malfunction:

I am by all means no PBX expert, I know some who are and I know what I dont know and also dont wanna know or learn 1st place but here it comes:

Client: "Lars, we can hardly receive any calls since this morning, maybe 9:30h,m after two rings the Fax takes all the calls....HEEELP"

Me: "You know that thing is from Deutsche Telekom and I dont even have the PWD at hand to get it but I will do my best ( almsot lying saying that, knowing I have zero knowledge of that VoIP-system, but you grow as you go ).

After finding out the qoute from DT to come and look ( and hopefully fix it ) I decided to not let my Client have that experience of being ripped. There are other ways and means.

Called up some folks I know from other past projects I was able to find someone who I trust for less than half the quote from DT.  At least an alternative for external help, estimated cost sub 500€ incl all fees and taxes. DT was,  ehhh   WAY more to say the least.

 

I fixed it myself, with a "##11"  or very similar easy command, I would have to look up what it was exactly, took 3 seconds and some google and a call to a DT technician I know.

Someone must have, by accident, programmed FORWARD ALL to the Fax's MSN, that's how easy you can cripple an office with one unconscious move of your forearm or hand etc... .

But if you only use and have Big Vendor SLA you miss the most important part of your Self-Supporting Strategy, your local hero

 

[kksnowbear]

2 hours ago, BitMaster said:

Support ≠ Support

It really matters what kind of helping hand one needs.

The service you can expect from a local, in person if needed, technician can and should exceed what you can expect from ANY of the big names you can come up with and here is why:

It is almsot given that none of the technicians is per se allowed to work on any of your devices other than what they sold and even that has it's very strict limits. They will tell you to move/copy/paste/delete/install etc. on your machine but likely not do it themselves, none of the ones I need to work with. They are all friendly, always nice talks for hours, BUT there is a limit how far they are allowed to interact and how far they can reach ( Hardware wise, LAN wise ).

 

Example:  You have a network issue while gaming, no own knowledge, all you know is "IT DAMN DOESNT RELIABLY WORK ! DANG !!"

The only thing your SLA ( Service Level Agreement ) Partner will do is check if you have the latest drivers as listed on their page and if your IP settings make sense, based on the Network Info you provide or he can retrieve and maybe a little more in your OS..maybe...and there the problem may arise... the problem could well be a switch, a not-so-good-configured Router, a Smart-TV in your LAN, a damn Printer misfiring in LAN...likely NONE of those would be covered or detected/fixed, THAT'S WHY businesses have SLA with vendors, DELL/HP/LENOVO/CISCO etc..  and ALSO a either local administrator for such things as outlined above or you need to find one LOCALLY to bridge the gap. This a defacto standard scenario in ANY office and really also applies to Home Computers and Gaming Rigs with SLA.

SLA is good for:   My Monitor is black !

                             The case squeeks  and is loud, HELP !

                             It constantly crashes to BSOD !

                             My drive died, waahaaa !

                             Part A, B or C failed, replace 4h NBD

 

SLA is not so good for:

You know; I got this PC from you last week and know that I have hooked up my Hotas ( 3x USB minimum ), VR goggles/TiR, installed half a dozen or more apps and connected plenty USB that thing behaves strange in my game, the FPS dont match what they should, my VR doesnt work, The Throttle constantly disconnects, USB device A,B or C doesnt work as intended, the LED software from my 150$ mouse doesnt work.....etc... most of those obstacles are likely not covered by any SLA you could ever sign up for, that's where the local guys and/or a forum can shine. 

Usually local guys know many common routers and also dare to dial in and check for obvious misconfigs, I do at least, and more often than not you can improve settings.

Network issues can be very tricky and you need to physically connect/disconnect devices or use network tools to find not-so-well configured settings and features.

Things that relate to software problems of foreign hardware, they will refuse to solve usually and point you to the other vendor, usually a "Their problem, not ours"

When I see problems as a technician, they are MY problems and I solve them or will be able to tell why I cannot fix it and show other HOPEFULLY  other way to solve it

but you don't hang up or leave through the door with unsolved problems.  OK, if you loose your PWD like a Lady I had as a customer, no one can help you, many mails and calls to MS

didnt help, sometimes the case is lost, that's true too.

 

One should understand what help he might need to not end up with a SLA that doesnt fit his needs but costs a fortune.

 

A lil story from last month, what a PITA it was and still is:

One of my clients' AV ran out and I suggested Acronis Cyber Protection Advanced for all Clients as a replacement to match the Server's AV and Backup Solution, so all will be under 1 nice umbrella. I realy like Acronis, never let me down on dark days but I know that it's GUI and Management Server can sometimes throw up and cause lots of hassle. 

I made a nice offer, below MSRP for 10 clients and offering free installation on all clients, no strings attached, FREE. no matter what it takes.

Well, through remote install features it installed in 10min on all 9 but not on the bosses 10th PC( whom elses could be worse ?! ).  I said, OK, lets do a manual on that one and be done. No !  by far not.

After a week of trying all my 15+ years of Acronis knowledge it still refused to register the client... it installed properly, always, just reg the client and the Mothership failed, constantly, regardless of what of the many install methods I took, deinstall scripts etc...  all nada.

OK, we paid for SLA, give'em a call !   A day later I had an appointment for a remote session, basically doing the same stuff I had done before, just to tick the boxes ! After that day, the 1st level guy gave up and handed me further up the ladder, with the 2nd level support I spent multiple multi-hour sessions to install that stupid client, always during DAY time whereas I usually work evening/nights so my Clients' work is not interrupted, now it was, from 1pm to 5pm for like 3 days, plus me doing things I got told later in the evenings, it just wouldnt show where it went wrong. The machine runs flawless in every other aspect, just not Acronis.

The thing got escaled to 3rd level support, basically doing the same stuff again, nothing I hadnt done on my own before calling HelpCenter. After some mails and efforts to try this and that they gave up ! Done.

I suggested that I reinstall the OS from scratch and likely it will all install just fine and we will never know what caused it.

I just wrote my quarterly invoice for that company today, none of that work is listed. Ethos & Pathos have given way to lesser values, pick one.   

 

Last resort is your local hero...and I am one of those idiots 

 

One more:

PBX-System malfunction:

I am by all means no PBX expert, I know some who are and I know what I dont know and also dont wanna know or learn 1st place but here it comes:

Client: "Lars, we can hardly receive any calls since this morning, maybe 9:30h,m after two rings the Fax takes all the calls....HEEELP"

Me: "You know that thing is from Deutsche Telekom and I dont even have the PWD at hand to get it but I will do my best ( almsot lying saying that, knowing I have zero knowledge of that VoIP-system, but you grow as you go ).

After finding out the qoute from DT to come and look ( and hopefully fix it ) I decided to not let my Client have that experience of being ripped. There are other ways and means.

Called up some folks I know from other past projects I was able to find someone who I trust for less than half the quote from DT.  At least an alternative for external help, estimated cost sub 500€ incl all fees and taxes. DT was,  ehhh   WAY more to say the least.

 

I fixed it myself, with a "##11"  or very similar easy command, I would have to look up what it was exactly, took 3 seconds and some google and a call to a DT technician I know.

Someone must have, by accident, programmed FORWARD ALL to the Fax's MSN, that's how easy you can cripple an office with one unconscious move of your forearm or hand etc... .

But if you only use and have Big Vendor SLA you miss the most important part of your Self-Supporting Strategy, your local hero

 

Of course, there are important differences in "support"

What I find interesting is that - as per your explanation above - 'vendors' are only going to do so much with software they didn't provide.  What they sold was a system; basically, a collection of hardware.  They don't warranty or guarantee it'll run anything specifically (so-called 'fitness for particular purpose') and they don't really have to guarantee it (especially not in the US, though I believe Europe may be different).  I can all-but-assure you their warranty doesn't cover 'fitness for particular purpose'.

So, if one of Origin's customers says "Most of the support I need doesn’t involve actual work on the machine.", and that's all Origin really covers to begin with...how much 'support' is Origin actually providing?  Like you said, very limited.  They're certainly not supporting DCS.  The OS or the rest of the platform?  Perhaps enough to check drivers etc as you said...but they're not Microsoft (and they'll tell you that, too).

So... the obvious question is, how much "support" is that customer actually getting?

How useful is that level/amount of support?  Is it worth thousands in extra cost?

Edited October 22, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Dragon1-1]

On 10/21/2024 at 4:01 AM, SharpeXB said:

Installing a graphics card? Pretty easy. Maybe… Putting the entire machine together? No. I have my limits.

Honestly, putting the entire machine together is not much harder than installing the GPU four or five times in a row. In fact, the GPU and CPU are the only things that require any sort of skill (the GPU mostly if you're installing some chonker that barely fits inside the case). If you can put together a piece of IKEA furniture, you can likely manage to assemble a PC. The CPU requires knowing how to spread thermal paste without making a mess, but that's about the extent of the difficulty. In general, the sockets are labeled and keyed, so it's hard to plug something in wrong. The most fiddly part is typically connecting the front panel. PSU is some mounting screws and plugging in cables, RAM clicks right in, M.2 SSDs are a socket and a single screw. Fans just plug into the mobo and that's that, unless there is some fancy RGB involved.

Worth noting, it used to be a lot more involved, especially on the software side. My dad was amazed when we put my old M.2 SSD into my younger brother's new rig and it started right up. No fussing with AHCI settings, installing drivers from another machine, or anything like that. I'm happy to say that Windows 10 pretty much eliminated those things that used to be the bane of PC builders of not so long ago.

The hard part is figuring out which components you need, where to get them as to avoid paying through the nose, and what to do if something doesn't play nice. Once you know what you need, and all the parts have arrived, the procedure for making a computer out of them is remarkably simple.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Dragon1-1

[kksnowbear]

The OP has very clearly stated that though he's capable, he doesnt want to build his PC:

On 10/18/2024 at 4:39 PM, EL CARIBE said:

While I enjoyed building my own PC originally, at this point due to time constraints, I'd rather purchase a custom PC.  

That being the case, the ensuing discussion is about choices for *not* building a computer on your own.

Strictly because others have brought it up: As a formally trained and extensively experienced computerized systems professional, I would strenuously advise that the reader does not view the process of building a computer as "remarkably simple".  It is not, and it can be very costly and disastrous if not done properly (PM me, I'll tell you some true stories).

But again, the OP's topic explicitly excludes the question of DIY building.  It would be appropriate  to keep the discussion on topic.

Edited October 22, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Honestly, putting the entire machine together is not much harder than installing the GPU four or five times in a row

Yeah I suppose if you’re not busy and have more time than money DIY makes sense. But if the reverse applies, not so much. And again it’s not just the assembly but having support. That’s my hot button anyways. And if you don’t have the time and expertise with this it would quickly turn into an ordeal. 

51 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The hard part is figuring out which components you need

And this I wouldn’t know unless I just mimicked what I saw on a vendors website. So why not just have them do the job and save myself the trouble? The money is not an issue for me, time and aggravation is. 

[LucShep]

Guys, come on.
Yet another multi-page thread digressing from the OT is in the making.

The OP made his query pretty clear.
He did build his previous system, enjoyed it, and even upgraded it a few times but, due to time constraints, he'd rather purchase a custom PC this time around.  
Wants to know what others in the flight sim community have been happy with (CyberPower? Corsair? PCSpecialist? FalconNW? etc etc etc).

I get the feeling that he already knows that a custom PC from whatever vendor is always going to be more expensive. Considerably so if compared to building the whole thing from the ground up, with every single part bought separately, by yourself.

It's his choice and his money.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you want to do it yourself next time around.

Just because I know how to do maintenance in a motorcycle doesn't mean I want to do it, and rather have it (professionally) done by someone more experienced recommended by my peers. Or, just because I can cook doesn't mean I want to prepare a whole meal and.... you get the gist.
Pretty similar lines here with the subject in the OT, I think?

Edited October 23, 2024 by LucShep

[kksnowbear]

The OP explicitly ruled out doing it himself.  It is regretful that some of the comments have ignored this.

That said, the balance of the discussion (those comments that *don't* advocate DIY) is not off topic.  It offers an alternative to online "vendors", and shows why that alternative is better in every way that is relevant.

You don't have to pay thousands more than a machine is worth, and you can still avoid doing it yourself.

The OP did not rule out a custom builder.

Edited October 23, 2024 by kksnowbear

[BitMaster]

In Germany, we have a few well known shops that build your Rig the way you want it and it's maybe 200-300€ more, 3 year ship back incl. when needed etc...

That is one thing I would support, choose the parts, ALL of them, have Professional's build it for you and the rest, setup of OS and DCS and VR etc.. is up to the buyer.

 

mifcom.de is one of them, the have a fairly large palette to choose from and imho better than most pre-baked systems.

Isn't there a similar thing in the US ??   Should be actually..or ??

[SharpeXB]

28 minutes ago, BitMaster said:

Isn't there a similar thing in the US ??

Yes of course, there are quite a lot of them. 

https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-gaming-desktops

https://www.tomshardware.com/best-picks/best-gaming-pcs

https://www.pcgamer.com/best-gaming-pc/

Edited October 23, 2024 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, BitMaster said:

Isn't there a similar thing in the US ??   Should be actually..or ??

Sure, local/independent builders do it.  I do it. For example, I've made arrangements with guys who want to buy their own parts; I build the machine, they pay a reasonable fee for labor (typically ~$200-300 depending).  They also get lifetime support and *free* upgrade labor, trade in on used hardware, etc. Plus, I actively encourage them to be here, helping, learning, and seeing every step in the building process, along with detailed explanations of why it's being done the way it is. The "vendors" don't do any of that.

But not if we're talking the "vendors" that keep getting brought up... not if we're talking some place that adds $1000-2000 in cost compared to even worst case retail prices...

... and so far, the "vendors" I've looked at are charging $1000-2000 (or more) beyond what the cost should be.  Often with lower quality parts and workmanship. And no better support, necessarily, than a custom builder.

That's why I said avoid those places.  Avoid prebuilt machines. IBuyPower? Alienware? Yeyian Yumi(???) I'm seriously laughing at how any of these are the "best" PC.

The links posted above are the same old prebuilts.  They are *not* what you're asking about. (They also generate money for the sites when someone buys whats in the "reviews")

They seem to be good for people who just want to throw a ton of money at something, on the presumption that it must be better just because it was way more expensive.

Edited October 23, 2024 by kksnowbear

[EL CARIBE]

20 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

The OP explicitly ruled out doing it himself.  It is regretful that some of the comments have ignored this.

That said, the balance of the discussion (those comments that *don't* advocate DIY) is not off topic.  It offers an alternative to online "vendors", and shows why that alternative is better in every way that is relevant.

You don't have to pay thousands more than a machine is worth, and you can still avoid doing it yourself.

The OP did not rule out a custom builder.

 

Thanks! Yep, that was the intention.  I'm just looking for some respectable names... I'm leaning towards CyberPower.  Any thoughts on them?

In regard to the DIY thing, I completely agree it was an amazing experience to do it myself, and rebuild it again by myself.  I would encourage anyone to do that who has the time.  I'm not technical at all... my only guide was YouTube and that was mostly Newegg videos, who walks you through the whole thing.  That as all I needed.  Now though, I'd prefer to save my time and buy a custom built rig. 

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, EL CARIBE said:

Thanks! Yep, that was the intention.  I'm just looking for some respectable names... I'm leaning towards CyberPower.  Any thoughts on them?

In regard to the DIY thing, I completely agree it was an amazing experience to do it myself, and rebuild it again by myself.  I would encourage anyone to do that who has the time.  I'm not technical at all... my only guide was YouTube and that was mostly Newegg videos, who walks you through the whole thing.  That as all I needed.  Now though, I'd prefer to save my time and buy a custom built rig. 

The problem(s), from my perspective:

a. You haven't specified what you're using now (minor point but could matter, maybe even quite a bit).

b. (Unless I missed it) You haven't really specified what you're looking for now.  I can appreciate you might not know the finer details, but as it is, that's a fairly huge void.  It can make a *lot* of difference in the bottom line.  I would strongly recommend you try to at least narrow it down a bit:  Specify CPU and GPU at minimum.

c. Over the course of this thread, I've now spent time looking at three different online vendors, all the while knowing they're going to be pretty much the same, but wanting to at least give it a shot.  I've now done that a fouth time, and zero surprise: The prices are terrible for what you get, +/- as much as several thousand dollars.

I've mentioned independent/custom/local builders several times, but I don't recall a response from you about that.  Are you not clear on what I mean?  I think you can do much better than with the online 'vendors', and possibly save a considerable amount of money, while getting the same/better computer and support.

That said - and because you asked - I looked at CyberPower just now.  That makes four online "vendors", and they have the same problem as every other online vendor:  Their prebuilts are assembled of lower-quality and/or lesser-featured parts.  In the example I looked at, I believe it was ~$3000 price from the start (don't know about shipping or taxes where you are).  It comes with a 'no name' 4090.  You can change it, but they only have a couple of choices, none of which I'd recommend - and all of them add cost.  An off-brand power supply, same as the GPU, changing it adds cost.  A B650M motherboard that's worth <$150, God only knows what they're charging for it.  If you want a better one, of course: Extra charges.  32G RAM and some of the options are garbage ("Major brand?" ...really??)...of course, changing to 64G total = more cost.  A 2TB WD Blue PCIe 4.0 drive?  Why?  (Changing to a decent PCIe Gen5 drive, adds almost another $250, and it's still not the fastest drive you can get, either)  They even make you pay an extra $31 to go with W11 Pro instead of Home....

Total now exceeding $3800 (before tax/shipping) and I still can't specify the GPU I'd prefer, haven't changed the motherboard to a better model...

Again, this is how they make money.  Lower-quality components, build quality that's typically not great, features that aren't great...

I could keep going but I'm honestly repeating what I've already said.  By the time you 'configure' this machine to a decent set of components, I'm guessing it will exceed $4000, more after tax/shipping.

And "support"?  Their hours are 830AM-6PM Monday-Friday.  No weekends, and since I believe you're on the west coast, no evenings.

I know this is what I keep saying but I'm afraid that's the way it is.

Do you have access to an independent, custom builder near where you are?

Edited October 23, 2024 by kksnowbear

[EL CARIBE]

6 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

The problem(s), from my perspective:

a. You haven't specified what you're using now (minor point but could matter, maybe even quite a bit).

b. (Unless I missed it) You haven't really specified what you're looking for now.  I can appreciate you might not know the finer details, but as it is, that's a fairly huge void.  It can make a *lot* of difference in the bottom line.  I would strongly recommend you try to at least narrow it down a bit:  Specify CPU and GPU at minimum.

c. Over the course of this thread, I've now spent time looking at three different online vendors, all the while knowing they're going to be pretty much the same, but wanting to at least give it a shot.  I've now done that a fouth time, and zero surprise: The prices are terrible for what you get, +/- as much as several thousand dollars.

I've mentioned independent/custom/local builders several times, but I don't recall a response from you about that.  Are you not clear on what I mean?  I think you can do much better than with the online 'vendors', and possibly save a considerable amount of money, while getting the same/better computer and support.

That said - and because you asked - I looked at CyberPower just now.  That makes four online "vendors", and they have the same problem as every other online vendor:  Their prebuilts are assembled of lower-quality and/or lesser-featured parts.  In the example I looked at, I believe it was ~$3000 price from the start (don't know about shipping or taxes where you are).  It comes with a 'no name' 4090.  You can change it, but they only have a couple of choices, none of which I'd recommend - and all of them add cost.  An off-brand power supply, same as the GPU, changing it adds cost.  A B650M motherboard that's worth <$150, God only knows what they're charging for it.  If you want a better one, of course: Extra charges.  32G RAM and some of the options are garbage ("Major brand?" ...really??)...of course, changing to 64G total = more cost.  A 2TB WD Blue PCIe 4.0 drive?  Why?  (Changing to a decent PCIe Gen5 drive, adds almost another $250, and it's still not the fastest drive you can get, either)  They even make you pay an extra $31 to go with W11 Pro instead of Home....

Total now exceeding $3800 (before tax/shipping) and I still can't specify the GPU I'd prefer, haven't changed the motherboard to a better model...

Again, this is how they make money.  Lower-quality components, build quality that's typically not great, features that aren't great...

I could keep going but I'm honestly repeating what I've already said.  By the time you 'configure' this machine to a decent set of components, I'm guessing it will exceed $4000, more after tax/shipping.

And "support"?  Their hours are 830AM-6PM Monday-Friday.  No weekends, and since I believe you're on the west coast, no evenings.

I know this is what I keep saying but I'm afraid that's the way it is.

Do you have access to an independent, custom builder near where you are?

 

To keep this super simple, this rig will be exclusively for DCS (why I posted on this forum) so need a high-end CPU and GPU, thinking Nvidia 4090; at least 2TB of HD and 64G RAM.  I'm in the Seattle area so I'm sure there are plenty of independent builders here... but I don't know of any specifically.  In regard to CyberPower, I am not looking for prebuilt, I would customize it; thus far what I'm looking for with the high-end componentry is coming to just under $4K which is fine with me.  Is there anything else I should consider?

[kksnowbear]

8 hours ago, EL CARIBE said:

To keep this super simple, this rig will be exclusively for DCS (why I posted on this forum) so need a high-end CPU and GPU, thinking Nvidia 4090; at least 2TB of HD and 64G RAM.  I'm in the Seattle area so I'm sure there are plenty of independent builders here... but I don't know of any specifically.  In regard to CyberPower, I am not looking for prebuilt, I would customize it; thus far what I'm looking for with the high-end componentry is coming to just under $4K which is fine with me.  Is there anything else I should consider?

Sorry to nit-pick here - but you didn't actually specify a CPU.  This matters because it will dictate motherboard, chipset, etc...

May I ask which model (from CyberPower) you're referring to?  I assume if you have a price, you've already settled on a model, with a certain CPU, and other components?

Which 4090 did you pick?  When I looked I could only see three; one was a unit without a brand/model specified.  What drive?  What PSU?

Could share your build list, please?   Otherwise there's a lot of potential for 'apples and oranges'.

EDIT: Incidentally, I'd be interested to know...is there a reason you might not wish to deal with a local builder?  I am fairly confident you'll get a better price on a better machine, with equal or better support as you might get from CyberPower.

Edited October 24, 2024 by kksnowbear

[Steel Jaw]

I've been building my own pcs for 30 years....if I can do it, anybody can.

[kksnowbear]

3 minutes ago, Steel Jaw said:

I've been building my own pcs for 30 years....if I can do it, anybody can.

Yes, and while I might agree with you...please consider the OP has explicitly stated he doesn't wish to do that.

(Incidentally, just for the entertainment value: I've also been called in on an 'emergency basis' more than once, by people convinced they could do it themselves.  Some were creating their own problems which they never would've gotten past...others were not so lucky and found themselves looking at paying to replace brand new hardware they trashed).

[BitMaster]

The only thing tricky and very unforgiving when putting the bare bones together is the socket. One stupid move and it's ruined. That must be said.

Over the decades the number of pins has significantly increased and as sturdy modern BGA CPU's have become in handling through not having pins anymore the more fragile the socket pins have become, coupled with the price inflation on newer Boards this has become one the things one should really care for, insert in properly, 1st time, always, no miss or you are screwed and left with 7 bend pins, ultra tiny.

[EL CARIBE]

7 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Sorry to nit-pick here - but you didn't actually specify a CPU.  This matters because it will dictate motherboard, chipset, etc...

May I ask which model (from CyberPower) you're referring to?  I assume if you have a price, you've already settled on a model, with a certain CPU, and other components?

Which 4090 did you pick?  When I looked I could only see three; one was a unit without a brand/model specified.  What drive?  What PSU?

Could share your build list, please?   Otherwise there's a lot of potential for 'apples and oranges'.

EDIT: Incidentally, I'd be interested to know...is there a reason you might not wish to deal with a local builder?  I am fairly confident you'll get a better price on a better machine, with equal or better support as you might get from CyberPower.

 

I'm not concerned about the componentry right now; my original request was for insight that anyone has on custom-PC manufacturers that they've been happy with.  I haven't settled on a model (this would be a custom) nor on many other components yet... right now I'm looking for a reliable custom PC builder, which I can find on my own... but I'd like to know who others have tried and been happy with.. or not so happy with.  Does that make sense?

[EightyDuce]

19 hours ago, EL CARIBE said:

To keep this super simple, this rig will be exclusively for DCS (why I posted on this forum) so need a high-end CPU and GPU, thinking Nvidia 4090; at least 2TB of HD and 64G RAM.  I'm in the Seattle area so I'm sure there are plenty of independent builders here... but I don't know of any specifically.  In regard to CyberPower, I am not looking for prebuilt, I would customize it; thus far what I'm looking for with the high-end componentry is coming to just under $4K which is fine with me.  Is there anything else I should consider?

Exclusively for DCS...

CPU: 7800X3D or 9800X3D (when it launches)

MB: The X870E chipset for Zen5 is essentially X670E with mandatory USB4 connectivity. Unless you want/need USB4 I would save $$ and get a solid X670E or B650E (ensures you have at least 1 NVME PCI gen5 SSD slot) board with whatever connectivity suits you. Power delivery of most AM5 boards is overbuilt and will run any AMD CPU no issues.

RAM: 64Gb 2x32 6000-6200, you can try go for 8000 with Zen5 and new AGESA but its hit and miss and you're getting into 2:1 situation which arguably isn't worth it. If you aren't going to chance tight timings, which it doesn't sound like you are, then shouldn't matter too much as long as it's on your motherboard QVL (validated working memory should be posted on the motherboard manufacturer website for each board).

Storage: NVME SSD, money no object, Crucial T700 or T705 4Tb (Partitioned for OS and DCS/Gaming partitions ~1Tb:3Tb). Otherwise a 2Tb variant of the same or a cheaper-ish Gen4 option is SK Hynix P41  2Tb, Samsung 9XX, WD Black....

GPU: RTX 4090 to be honest, in performance they are all going to be within 5-7% of each other as they will boost as much as cooling with allow. GPU bracket is a must if you're keeping the stock cooler as there have been instances of PCBs cracking at the slot area from sagging. Here, better cooler will get better performance. Component-wise, Nvidia FE, Asus and MSI cards have had a better choice of power delivery components. YMMV.

PSU: 1000w+ Gold/Platinum rated PSU from Super Flower, Corsair, EVGA, Seasonic is fine. When calculating load, best practice is to be under 80% of max load to maintain efficiency.

 

Just my 2 cents, I'm sure others will chime...

 

PS. One thing to consider as far as support from any builder but especially individual vs. established company, is the longevity of the the person/business responsible for the warranty and support. Health, life, work and family situation can change in a heartbeat and its not hard for that 24/7 "lifetime" support to disappear overnight.

Edited October 24, 2024 by EightyDuce
Corrected for some terrible spelling :)

[kksnowbear]

6 hours ago, EL CARIBE said:

I'm not concerned about the componentry right now; my original request was for insight that anyone has on custom-PC manufacturers that they've been happy with.  I haven't settled on a model (this would be a custom) nor on many other components yet... right now I'm looking for a reliable custom PC builder, which I can find on my own... but I'd like to know who others have tried and been happy with.. or not so happy with.  Does that make sense?

I am sorry if I misunderstood.  When you said this:

22 hours ago, EL CARIBE said:

thus far what I'm looking for with the high-end componentry is coming to just under $4K

I understood that to mean you'd already looked at certain models/components (otherwise, where would the price come from?)

What I've been trying to explain is that the online vendors like CyberPower, Corsair, Origin, and FalconNW (to name the ones I checked) charge way too much for what you get.

Part of the problem (as I see it) is the definition of "prebuilt".  If you cannot specify *all* the components used, without being constrained to choosing from a list the vendor provides - it's a prebuilt.  Doesn't matter what the vendor calls it; that's just marketing.

If it's 'custom' then that means you can specify any component you want - and generally, the online vendors don't do that (because it takes away the way they make money).  If you do find one that offers a true 'custom' build, it's going to cost 1000-2000(+) more than the 'prebuilt' machine that supposedly has the same components...how's that make sense?

The issue is that these online vendors want to charge the price of a custom build with all premium components, but what they sell is not all premium components.  No-name 4090, low-end motherboard, underperforming drives...these things do not warrant a $4000 price tag like what I saw at CyberPower.

I believe you can do (much) better with an independent builder - which you didn't rule out in your original post.  As a builder myself, I believe it's worth consideration to avoid prebuilts.

Several people here have indicated you should avoid prebuilts (as in the definition of 'prebuilt' above).  We're saying this because we know what it involves; those who don't understand it...well, they don't understand it.

But by all means, you should do whatever you wish.

Edited October 25, 2024 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

3 minutes ago, EightyDuce said:

Exclusively for DCS...

CPU: 7800X3D or 9800X3D (when it launches)

MB: The X870E chipset for Zen5 is essentially X670E with mandatory USB4 connectivity. Unless you want/need USB4 I would save $$ and get a solid X670E or B650E (ensures you have at least 1 NVME PCI gen5 SSD slot) board with whatever connectivity suits you. Power delivery of most AM5 boards is overbuilt and will run any AMD CPU no issues.

RAM: 64Gb 2x32 6000-6200, you can try go for 8000 with Zen5 and new AGISA but its hit and miss and you're getting into 2:1 situation which arguably isn't worth it. If you aren't going to chance tight timings, which it doesn't sound like you are, then shouldn't matter too much as long as it's on your motherboard QVL (validated working memory should be posted on the motherboard manufacturer website for each board).

Storage: NVME SSD, money no object, Crucial T700 or T705 4Tb (Partitioned for OS and DCS/Gaming partitions ~1Tb:3Tb). Otherwise a 2Tb variant of the same or a cheaper-ish Gen4 option is SK Hynix P41  2Tb, Samsung 9XX, WD Black....

GPU: RTX 4090 to be honest, in performance they are all going to be within 5-7% of each other as they will boost as much as cooling with allow. GPU bracket is a must if you're keeping the stock cooler as there have been instances of PCBs cracking at the slot area from sagging. Here, better cooler will get better performance. Component-wise, Nvidia FE, Asus and MSI cards have had a better choice of power delivery components. YMMV.

PSU: 1000w+ Gold/Platinum rated PSU from Super Flower, Corsair, EVGA, Seasonic is fine. When calculating load, best practice is to be under 80% of max load to maintain efficiency.

 

Just my 2 cents, I'm sure others will chime...

 

PS. One thing to consider as far as support from any builder but especially individual vs. established company, is the longevity of the the person/business responsible for the warranty and support. Health, life, work and family situation can change in a heartbeat and its not hard for that 24/7 "lifetime" support to disappear overnight.

 

I agree in general, but not all 4090s are the same (at all).  Guaranteed if you buy a prebuilt, it's going to come with one of the worst board designs - which matters, and cannot be measured by looking at FPS numbers.  Google 4090 bad board design if you don't believe me.  Specifically, a lot of prebuilts come with Zotac cards, which are known to be among the worst board designs.  AsRock boards are pretty crappy, too.

Also, no point in putting a PCIe 4.0 drive on a board you're paying for PCIe 5.0 M2 slots on.  Don't scrimp.  I wouldn't say money is no object, but I do agree that it's worth looking at the Crucial T700/705 even though they cost more.  (I own two and have worked with several others).  Also, it is far better to have separate drives for the OS and games.  Get a smaller cheaper Gen4 drive for booting, and a separate 2TB Gen 5 drive is enough for DCS.

Max efficiency in a switch mode PSU is 50%.  I don't think that's changed.  That said, I agree a high-quality 1000W unit from a reputable company is a good choice.

(PS I believe it's "AGESA")

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, EightyDuce said:

One thing to consider as far as support from any builder but especially individual vs. established company, is the longevity of the the person/business responsible for the warranty and support. Health, life, work and family situation can change in a heartbeat and its not hard for that 24/7 "lifetime" support to disappear overnight.

Yeah I can’t reiterate that enough from my perspective. It doesn’t matter how good a PC is if you can’t get 24/7 lifetime support with it. And I think a lot of the experts underestimate how much support a layperson needs. The “best” machine still needs service and no PC is so good that it doesn’t need regular support. I would rather not be the owner of the world’s most expensive doorstop. I owned my last machine for 10 years so “lifetime” support means my lifetime, not theirs. A established company is much more likely to have that longevity compared to an individual. 

Edited October 25, 2024 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

Yeah...except that (as I've now mentioned, several times) most of these vendors (certainly neither Origin nor CyberPower) do not actually offer 24/7 support (nor do the other vendors, I bet). Sure they have an email address you can write, or AI chat bots that will respond any time.

Sorry, that's not 24/7 support, and I'm surprised people here are still claiming it is.

There is also the question of the quality of support you actually get.  Let's just say the guys answering the phones aren't exactly top-tier technical assets.  (If they are, they aren't working the Help Desk lmao)

Businesses can and have gone under, so that's not fool proof either.

And to be brutally honest, if a machine you bought requires that much "support" to begin with, I'd say something's wrong with the machine, the user, or both.