UFO AI?

[Netrunner]

So I recently flew the FW190A8 and did several hours of 1 on 1 BFM training with the AI and didn't manage to get a single hit. This is even with setting the AI to rookie. The enemy aircraft were a P-47 and a P-51. I know there have been AI changes going on the past several years, so did they make the AI even more UFO like? I distinctly remember the AI I-16 being some sort of unbeatable monster when I flew against it several years ago.

[PawlaczGMD]

37 minutes ago, Netrunner said:

So I recently flew the FW190A8 and did several hours of 1 on 1 BFM training with the AI and didn't manage to get a single hit. This is even with setting the AI to rookie. The enemy aircraft were a P-47 and a P-51. I know there have been AI changes going on the past several years, so did they make the AI even more UFO like? I distinctly remember the AI I-16 being some sort of unbeatable monster when I flew against it several years ago.

The AI FM is not great for some aircraft types, but last time I checked it was ok for the P-47 and P-51.

They are just superior (especially the Mustang) in BFM, so you might struggle unless you know what you're doing. The Anton is probably the worst BFM fighter in DCS. But I could get some wins against the AI with it - you will either need to have an altitude advantage, or go for head-on shots.

If you doubt the AI, you can always try flying against people on a semi-casual server like Wolf Pack - you can get in combat in 5-10 minutes if there is pop. 

[Skewgear]

The AI uses the same flight model as players but flies it 100% perfectly. So it will do things that 99% of human players won't do, or be able to do.

In addition the Fw190A is the worst dogfighter of the lot, Mosquito aside. Best flown in straight, fast lines.

[PawlaczGMD]

4 hours ago, Skewgear said:

The AI uses the same flight model as players but flies it 100% perfectly. So it will do things that 99% of human players won't do, or be able to do.

In addition the Fw190A is the worst dogfighter of the lot, Mosquito aside. Best flown in straight, fast lines.

It isn't true that the AI uses the same flight model as us. It uses a simplified model, quality of which varies from aircraft to aircraft, notably bad in e.g. Mig-21 or F-5.  AFAIK ED is only working on a General Flight Model which will make AI use the same physics as us.

And while the AI might be flying perfectly mechanically, it is not making the best decisions and using the best tactics, and can be outplayed.

[Gunfreak]

The A8 is about a ton heavier then the early A1-A4. But without any noticeable improvement in power. Imagine the Spitfire Mk XIV with 1100 horses from the Mk I instead of the 2000HP it did have. In real life those A8s not tasked with bomber attacks would remove the outer 20mm to save some weight (like we have in the D9) it's also possible they removed some of the armor stuff. 

 

When it comes to the AI the P51 is best. It doesn't seem to over preform.

The A8, D9 and P47 AI is generally not very good. They all seem to just dive down to ground level and generally the only problem you'll encounter when fighting the A8 is it's ability to soak up huge amount of damage, far more then what a real aircraft could do.

The Spitfire and 109K4 AI is generally insane, the AI can fly infinite WEP. And can't break their own engines. So the Spitfire can fly vertically up forever (while a human player would brick it's engine after about 10 seconds) making the Mk IX behave more like a Mk XIV.

The 109k4 can do a super high G turn, turn 180 degrees and then easily overtake a P47 flying in the opposite direction at 350mph at 30 000 feet.

 

The trick to beating any WW2 AI in 1 v 1 is to simply out turn them. This will activate it "defense AI" which is lazy turns. 

So in the Spitfire or I16. Simply out turn the AI and they'll do lazy turns and you'll just reel them in until you can blast them.

Since the Fw190 can't really out turn anything. You won't easily get them to go stupid. And they'll be in offensive AI mode, which is far more difficult to deal with.

[Snappy]

6 hours ago, Skewgear said:

The AI uses the same flight model as players but flies it 100% perfectly. So it will do things that 99% of human players won't do, or be able to do.

In addition the Fw190A is the worst dogfighter of the lot, Mosquito aside. Best flown in straight, fast lines.

This statement is plain wrong , sorry . AI uses a simplified SFM , which often results in unrealistic performance. That was supposed to be changed by implementing a new , more accurate AI flight model called GFM , but this seems to take ED longer than expected. It’s been a project since at least 2021 and so far not single AI fixed-wing aircraft has received GFM in-game , at least not in the customer releases versions we have.Supposedly the helicopters use it.

ED showed a demo video of the AI MiG-29 with GFM but that’s it.Implementation was slated for 2022. Now we have 2024, but that’s typically ED for you.

Dont need to take my word for it. Here straight from the horses mouth. Read especially the first and second paragraph, it makes clear that the AI does not use the player aircraft AFM/PFM as it would impact computational performance too heavily.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2021-12-03/

Edited October 28 by Snappy

[motoadve]

15 hours ago, Netrunner said:

So I recently flew the FW190A8 and did several hours of 1 on 1 BFM training with the AI and didn't manage to get a single hit. This is even with setting the AI to rookie. The enemy aircraft were a P-47 and a P-51. I know there have been AI changes going on the past several years, so did they make the AI even more UFO like? I distinctly remember the AI I-16 being some sort of unbeatable monster when I flew against it several years ago.

But did they shoot you down? I found AI has lost their aggressiveness since the last patch and hardly ever shoot down each other or the player unless you try to be shot down.

[Slice313]

On 10/28/2024 at 4:54 AM, Netrunner said:

So I recently flew the FW190A8 and did several hours of 1 on 1 BFM training with the AI and didn't manage to get a single hit. This is even with setting the AI to rookie. The enemy aircraft were a P-47 and a P-51. I know there have been AI changes going on the past several years, so did they make the AI even more UFO like? I distinctly remember the AI I-16 being some sort of unbeatable monster when I flew against it several years ago.

The AI hasn't been changed. It's always been notoriously "UFO-like" in DCS. What you're experiencing is pretty much what everyone deals with when fighting AI aircraft. They don't follow realistic flight models or energy management rules like player-controlled aircraft do.

The I-16 AI you remember was indeed a nightmare to fight against, and that hasn't changed. Unfortunately, ED hasn't really focused on improving AI behavior, and it's unlikely they will in the near future. The AI will continue to perform physically impossible maneuvers regardless of skill level setting.

For better practice with the FW-190A8, I'd recommend either finding human opponents on multiplayer servers or creating scenarios that let you practice boom and zoom tactics, which is what the 190 was designed for. Trying to turn-fight with AI P-51s and P-47s, even on rookie, is going to be frustrating because they don't follow realistic flight characteristics...

At this point, I lost all hope about ED fixing anything, specially WW2 related. Ground damage, hello?

[Skewgear]

On 10/28/2024 at 7:16 PM, Snappy said:

Dont need to take my word for it. Here straight from the horses mouth. Read especially the first and second paragraph, it makes clear that the AI does not use the player aircraft AFM/PFM as it would impact computational performance too heavily.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2021-12-03/

 

After reading the first and second sentences as indicated, I read the third, fourth, and then the fifth from the same page:

Quote

Eventually, the Advanced Flight Model (AFM) and its successor, the Professional Flight model (PFM) were developed and the SFM was adapted for AI aircraft. Although SFM produces accurate trajectory parameters such as turn rate, specific excess power, flight envelope, etc. it suffers from a lack of natural short-period movement and switched models for ground and flight.

DCS AI fly a lightly slimmed-down  version of the SFM. They don't have the full modelling of certain reactions to turbulence or the full ground physics modelling.

Incidentally, short-period oscillations refers to very short-duration motions (a second or so) resulting from gusts, microbursts etc. Not really relevant for AI, as should be obvious. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/august/pilot/technique-aircraft-control

[Netrunner]

On 10/28/2024 at 2:36 PM, motoadve said:

But did they shoot you down? I found AI has lost their aggressiveness since the last patch and hardly ever shoot down each other or the player unless you try to be shot down.

Yea, they definitely shot me down. I think I noticed my wingmen were not engaging enemy aircraft though now that you mention it.

[konyanyachiwa]

I don't like long gliding of the AI.

 

Tacview l-16 Dogfight.acmi Track l-16 Dogfight.trk

[Snappy]

On 10/31/2024 at 10:20 AM, Skewgear said:

After reading the first and second sentences as indicated, I read the third, fourth, and then the fifth from the same page:

DCS AI fly a lightly slimmed-down  version of the SFM. They don't have the full modelling of certain reactions to turbulence or the full ground physics modelling.

Incidentally, short-period oscillations refers to very short-duration motions (a second or so) resulting from gusts, microbursts etc. Not really relevant for AI, as should be obvious. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/august/pilot/technique-aircraft-control

Not sure , what point you are trying to make.  I already told you AI fly on SFM . You were the one originally claiming AI used exactly the same model as player aircraft. Which is untrue. Player aircraft nowadays use AFM or PFM, or EFM. Not SFM since a long time.  Maybe during LOMAC days or early Flaming Cliffs. However not anymore:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/general/ 

These AFM/PFM/EFM models are far apart in complexity from SFM.So AI does in fact NOT use the same flight model as player.Contrary to what you said.

[Skewgear]

7 hours ago, Snappy said:

Not sure , what point you are trying to make.  I already told you AI fly on SFM . You were the one originally claiming AI used exactly the same model as player aircraft. Which is untrue. Player aircraft nowadays use AFM or PFM, or EFM. Not SFM since a long time.  Maybe during LOMAC days or early Flaming Cliffs. However not anymore:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/faq/general/ 

These AFM/PFM/EFM models are far apart in complexity from SFM.So AI does in fact NOT use the same flight model as player.Contrary to what you said.

You've ignored the bold text in my previous post because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

I'm being nice to you because these forums are full of angry weirdos shouting at each other while missing the point and I think it's important to not do that, but you haven't understood that the SFM produces the same flight envelope as the various later incarnations of the flight model, per the very same link you posted. These later models are designed for greater fidelity from the player/client point of view when it comes to things such as accelerated stalls, snap rolls and other things on the edge of the flight envelope that you'll only ever notice from being in the cockpit at the controls. The SFM was the player flight model for many years and produces the same flight parameters (lift, drag, stall speed, max AOA etc) as the later flight models. In effect you're fighting against the same thing, whether it judders in ground effect or not.

[Snappy]

10 hours ago, Skewgear said:

You've ignored the bold text in my previous post because it doesn't say what you want it to say.

I'm being nice to you because these forums are full of angry weirdos shouting at each other while missing the point and I think it's important to not do that, but you haven't understood that the SFM produces the same flight envelope as the various later incarnations of the flight model, per the very same link you posted. These later models are designed for greater fidelity from the player/client point of view when it comes to things such as accelerated stalls, snap rolls and other things on the edge of the flight envelope that you'll only ever notice from being in the cockpit at the controls. The SFM was the player flight model for many years and produces the same flight parameters (lift, drag, stall speed, max AOA etc) as the later flight models. In effect you're fighting against the same thing, whether it judders in ground effect or not.

„Although SFM produces accurate trajectory parameters such as turn rate, specific excess power, flight envelope“

At this point, I don’t buy this claim anymore. ED has shown time and again how they like to put out marketing hyperbole, while actual in-game state is nowhere near that.

(SFM). This has not changed and defines a more data-driven means of achieving flight dynamics, in conjunction with some scripting. SFM was used in the Lock On series and is still used for AI aircraft. 

..Some scripting..right.

People have shown that the AI is able to pull more G at lower speeds and higher alts than player in the same aircraft.And not just a few percent because they fly a supposedly „perfect“ technique.

If the AI used the same lift drag thrust and weight and AOA limitations as the player this wouldn’t be possible.

The FAQ bold you quoted clearly says SFM was used for player aircraft in LockOn times.That’s ages ago.The LockOn aircraft were much less realistic and simplified in their performance.

One flight in the DCS MiG -29 should show you that the flight model is far from the LockOn Variant.

Besides, many of the overperforming AI aircraft in DCS didn’t even exist back in LockOn days.There was no player flyable F-5 ,Mig-21 and Mig-15 just to name a few.

Anyway I’m out of here now, I can see this is going nowhere.Keep believing what you want. 

Edited November 2 by Snappy

[Yo-Yo]

On 10/28/2024 at 3:08 PM, Skewgear said:

The AI uses the same flight model as players but flies it 100% perfectly. So it will do things that 99% of human players won't do, or be able to do.

In addition the Fw190A is the worst dogfighter of the lot, Mosquito aside. Best flown in straight, fast lines.

To be accurate, it's better to say that they use different FM but both FM have the same trajectory and energy parameters (engine power at altitude, lift capabilities, L/D polars, etc). It means that AI will have all trajectory capabilities as human.

As far as I can see, the history of LockOn/DCS is not known nowadays... so, I have to remind a little:

LockOn used SFM for flyable aircraft and very basic AI FM for airplanes and helicopters that was far from physics. SFM is a classic trajectory model based on lift/drag and power/thrust and can be tuned very well for a certain aircraft to have exact performance figures.
As the human FM was migrating to AFM/PFM, two  movements began:
for Ka-50 project all AI helicopters were upgraded for helo-GFM, based on the same solid body physics (contact physics, MOI, forces and moments), and simplified rotor and engine physics (I say PHYSICS!  );
for AI planes SFM physics was implemented, that gives them true performance.

[Bowie]

Don't know where this is coming from.

Generally fly 16 v. 16 fighter missions.

- 12 P-51's, and 4 P-47's or Mk. IX's

- 12 Bf 109's and 4 Fw 190's

Skill Level per flight:
American/British/German/Flight(8): (Leader/Wingman)
1st Section:   (Ace/Veteran)       - (Veteran/Trained)
2nd Section: (Veteran/Trained) - (Veteran/Trained)

Knife fight in a phone booth.

 

Bowie