Endoplasmic Reticulum Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Buenos dias amigos and amigas (btw. Are there any Black Sharktresses in the Forum?) As we all know the Hokum finally entered regular service (in case you should'nt know :music_whistling:..) as the Havoc (Mi-28N). My question is, why both? It's said that the Hokum is for special operations and the Havoc for regular service. It seems, although Im not familiar with the Havoc details, that the Havoc has at least two advantages and one disadvantage compared with the Hokum. 1st advantage: Longbow radar. 2nd advantage: fully movable cannon like in the Apache. Does it have a RWR??? Disadvandage: Missing ejection-seat. Don't get me wrong, cuz I love the Hokum but why would one chose the Hokum and what would the "special-ops" be so that it and not the Havoc would be sent on a mission? The Havoc looks really evil, dont you think so too:evil:? A very monstrous appearance. Thanx in advance guys and girls. See ya. I used to love her, but I had to kill her I had to put her, six feet under And I can still hear her complain A tribute to BBetty and NNadja :bye_3:
GGTharos Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Buenos dias amigos and amigas (btw. Are there any Black Sharktresses in the Forum?) As we all know the Hokum finally entered regular service (in case you should'nt know :music_whistling:..) as the Havoc (Mi-28N). My question is, why both? It's said that the Hokum is for special operations and the Havoc for regular service. It seems, although Im not familiar with the Havoc details, that the Havoc has at least two advantages and one disadvantage compared with the Hokum. 1st advantage: Longbow radar. No Longbow radar on that heli. ;) And I don't think they have a lot of units to go around right now either. 2nd advantage: fully movable cannon like in the Apache. Advantage: Ka-50 cannon hits a whole lot harder. Does it have a RWR??? Disadvandage: Missing ejection-seat. Don't know, and, the ejection seat hasn't managed to save any lived in the fatal accidents the Ka-50 has had so far. Don't get me wrong, cuz I love the Hokum but why would one chose the Hokum and what would the "special-ops" be so that it and not the Havoc would be sent on a mission? It's less capable and thus potentially cheaper. The Mi-28 on the other hand has all sorts of things the Ka-50 does NOT have that makes it more survivable on the modern battlefield, starting with a better sensor package and more automation. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
ericinexile Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 I'm guessing here--as we all are really--but I'd guess one of the reasons the Ka50 was retained is has to do with the typical military contractor-government relationship were a lot of money is shoveled into a program and that money and time invested gets ever harder to kiss goodbye by shelving the program. The other reason I think is perhaps they expected the export market to really breath new life into the program. Finally, I wonder if the Comanche didn't offer a reason for a Russian counterpoint for a highly maneuverable single-seat helicopter. We know how that idea turned out. Smokin' Hole My DCS wish list: Su25, Su30, Mi24, AH1, F/A-18C, Afghanistan ...and frankly, the flight sim world should stop at 1995.
Endoplasmic Reticulum Posted June 10, 2009 Author Posted June 10, 2009 >>No Longbow radar on that heli. ;) And I don't think they have a lot of units to go around right now either.<< Isn't the sensor on the rotor mast a sort of a "longbow" which can be ordered optionally? >>Advantage: Ka-50 cannon hits a whole lot harder.<< In which dimensions "a whole lot harder"? >>Don't know, and, the ejection seat hasn't managed to save any lived in the fatal accidents the Ka-50 has had so far.<< Well, having the ability to eject but having bad luck if...is still better than knowing that having no chance at all if... Ejection seats was and will never save all lives. But the russians are leading in ejection-seat survivability. >>It's less capable and thus potentially cheaper. The Mi-28 on the other hand has all sorts of things the Ka-50 does NOT have that makes it more survivable on the modern battlefield, starting with a better sensor package and more automation.<< Thanx for the input. System needs more data. Start transfer.:book: I used to love her, but I had to kill her I had to put her, six feet under And I can still hear her complain A tribute to BBetty and NNadja :bye_3:
BaD CrC Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Don't know, and, the ejection seat hasn't managed to save any lived in the fatal accidents the Ka-50 has had so far. Well, maybe in real life, but it DID saved my virtual existence many many times in DCS:BS :smilewink: https://www.blacksharkden.com http://discord.gg/blacksharkden
GGTharos Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) I think it also has to do with ensuring that the army doesn't appear to be playing favorites, AND ensuring that you have more than one company designing and building your helis. The US forces tend to do something similar (while odd things happen, for example you'll usually not see a single supplier for aircraft engines, but rather two at minimum) Also, I'm not certain what you mean by 'highly maneuverable helicopter' ... they're a dime a dozen, they're all 'highly maneuverable' when in the same weight class ;) I'm guessing here--as we all are really--but I'd guess one of the reasons the Ka50 was retained is has to do with the typical military contractor-government relationship were a lot of money is shoveled into a program and that money and time invested gets ever harder to kiss goodbye by shelving the program. The other reason I think is perhaps they expected the export market to really breath new life into the program. Finally, I wonder if the Comanche didn't offer a reason for a Russian counterpoint for a highly maneuverable single-seat helicopter. We know how that idea turned out. Edited June 10, 2009 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Boberro Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Ejection seat gives at least higher morale = better fight. Matter of does it save your life or not depends from many things, however I don't see any minuses of Ejection seat. Even if it would rarely save pilot life. Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ
ZaltysZ Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Well, maybe in real life, but it DID saved my virtual existence many many times in DCS:BS :smilewink: No it didn't. Because of one bug you always die after ejection :D If you remember walking after ejection then that was because you were a virtual ghost (you can check easily if you are a ghost: only ghosts can walk through walls and vehicles). Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.
Endoplasmic Reticulum Posted June 10, 2009 Author Posted June 10, 2009 Sorry. Having some problems with the quoting procedures. Be patient ;). I'm guessing here--as we all are really--but I'd guess one of the reasons the Ka50 was retained is has to do with the typical military contractor-government relationship were a lot of money is shoveled into a program and that money and time invested gets ever harder to kiss goodbye by shelving the program. The other reason I think is perhaps they expected the export market to really breath new life into the program. Finally, I wonder if the Comanche didn't offer a reason for a Russian counterpoint for a highly maneuverable single-seat helicopter. We know how that idea turned out. Sounds plausible. Especially with exports they can earn a lot of money. Sukhoi showed how successful they can be (SU-30MK/I/K/M) and the Hokum with its cheaper price would be the ideal Heli for export. I used to love her, but I had to kill her I had to put her, six feet under And I can still hear her complain A tribute to BBetty and NNadja :bye_3:
sobek Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Advantage: Ka-50 cannon hits a whole lot harder. Why would that be? They feature the same cannon. I do believe though that the Ka-50 mount allows for more precision and higher effective range. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
GGTharos Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 I wasn't thinking of the Mi-28 when I wrote that. Do they use the same length barrel? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Endoplasmic Reticulum Posted June 10, 2009 Author Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) No it didn't. Because of one bug you always die after ejection :D If you remember walking after ejection then that was because you were a virtual ghost (you can check easily if you are a ghost: only ghosts can walk through walls and vehicles). My pilot always survives but gets a bloody nose from the walls he always runs into :D. Due to my bad quoting capabilities in the beginning of m,y forum-life maybe a question was not read and remained unanswered. I saw pictures of Havocs with (optional) ball-sensors on the rotor mast. Is'nt that a "Longbowski";)? Edited June 10, 2009 by Endoplasmic Reticulum I used to love her, but I had to kill her I had to put her, six feet under And I can still hear her complain A tribute to BBetty and NNadja :bye_3:
bumfire Posted June 11, 2009 Posted June 11, 2009 No it didn't. Because of one bug you always die after ejection :D If you remember walking after ejection then that was because you were a virtual ghost (you can check easily if you are a ghost: only ghosts can walk through walls and vehicles). ahahah, thats true cuz when I eject sometimes I can walk through walls and vehicles, infact I have even got pics of me in a hind gunners cockpit that was parked, i then jumped into the troop compartment of the hind and took pics aswell then decided to jump into my gaz jeep and let my chauffer drive me home :)
CE_Mikemonster Posted August 20, 2009 Posted August 20, 2009 Out of interest isn't the Mi-28N used because it's night capable (and can fit an emergency 'passenger')? Found this thread whilst looking for the F-22 one lol. Too many cowboys. Not enough indians. GO APE SH*T
EtherealN Posted August 20, 2009 Posted August 20, 2009 My question is, why both? It's said that the Hokum is for special operations and the Havoc for regular service. Rhethorical questions: why does the US use both the AH64 and the AH1? Also, on "why both", it's actually "why all three". They still have the Mi-24 in service. ;) But in the end it's probably a combination of differing requirements for different roles, preserving previous investments, prestige of manufacturers (note that Kamov traditionally made helos for the soviet navy and Mil made helos for the army with the Ka50 making an exception) and so on. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Daniel "EtherealN" Agorander | Даниэль "эфирныйн" Агорандер Intel i7 2600K @ 4.4GHz, ASUS Sabertooth P67, 8GB Corsair Vengeance @ 1600MHz, ASUS GTX 560Ti DirectCU II 1GB, Samsung 830series 512GB SSD, Corsair AX850w, two BENQ screens and TM HOTAS Warthog DCS: A-10C Warthog FAQ | DCS: P-51D FAQ | Remember to read the Forum Rules | | | Life of a Game Tester
CE_Mikemonster Posted August 21, 2009 Posted August 21, 2009 that is one odd avtar. Too many cowboys. Not enough indians. GO APE SH*T
Vekkinho Posted August 22, 2009 Posted August 22, 2009 Why both in service?! Why not? Plus there's not too many of them really operational or assigned to air wings so every bird counts! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Endoplasmic Reticulum Posted August 22, 2009 Author Posted August 22, 2009 Why both in service?! Why not? Plus there's not too many of them really operational or assigned to air wings so every bird counts! I agree, but I tried to understand the logic in integrating two different types of choppers. And no country throws money out of the window for two, if one can handle all tasks. But prestige is an additional factor and keeping two companies alive by buying both types than ruining one for the other is more logical for the future. I would want even more choppers, if you ask me. The broader the range the more interesting it gets and ED has more to work on, in building one more good sim for us. I used to love her, but I had to kill her I had to put her, six feet under And I can still hear her complain A tribute to BBetty and NNadja :bye_3:
Recommended Posts