Chemtards and their chemtrails

[sobek]

Since when does "religious media" need "proofs"?

Back to middle ages..

 

Seriously, when i read this threads like this i wonder how we ever managed to pull out of the middle ages. :doh:

[hitman]

I Dont watch stories like what you just mentioned. the hole at the south pole is magnetic south, i do know the difference. lines of flux travel south and pull ions down full force just like it would a magnet. why do you think its so complicated to understand mother nature? we have only been studying stuff like this for little over 20 years now. im sure when them scientists find out after a few more hundred years (and prove al gore wrong), that all their award winning theories (Not hypothesis) were indeed wrong. Its a natural cycle, no need to fear, we're all going to live or die, its just a natural phenomenon. when we start detonating nukes again, THEN ILL BE SCARED. You Dont need a pulitzer prize to inform everyone the earth won't die because of plastic bottles and hair spray.

[talisman]

I have been reading this with some interest and i would like to point out a different point of view.

 

I am a layman, im intellegent enough to see the world around me from an open minded perspective and i feel that i am able to grasp meaning from most of the things that i study.

 

Reading this thread has had me giggling like mad though. All this talk of holes in the ozone layer and Hydrocarbons is making no sense at all.

 

Firstly, the hole in the ozone layer may have been there forever, i dont know, neither does anyone else who isnt a professor. As far as i am concerned they only discovered antartica in 1860 and its not like they kept graphs of the resident suntan levels. Wasnt 1860 kind of around the beginning of the industrial revolution?

 

Secondly - rising sea levels - ice caps melting ect.. Does ice not float? Surely it would displace its own weight? I see tapastries made in 1066 with london tower on them - and low and behold - the big iron dock rings are still the same height from the water as they are now nearly 1000 years later.

 

So thats my evidence - i dont care about complicated carbon chains - lines of flux and other scientific mumbo jumbo.Now considering that i am the typical member of the population - neither does anyone else.

 

BUT - before i get flamed by over intellegent types - i will say this:

 

We may be being lied to by the government - or we may not, global warming - chemtrails might be around or they might not, it does not matter.

 

Why? Because nothing bad can come of this conspiricy (if it is one) as its for the good of mankind.

 

Sometimes the best way to motivate a populus is to scare the hell out of them, this has been done a few times for varoius reasons. Usually war.

 

So, real or not, conspiricy or not - who cares, i dont have to walk down a street covered in litter or drag plastic bags out of my hedge.

I have a mobile phone powered by the very latest in battery technology and drive the most efficient car i have ever owned.

My kids dont even know what acid rain is! Thats a good thing.

 

This is the first thing to motivate the entire world - something that hasnt happened since ww2.

 

Now if only we coud do the same with religion...........in fact i have heared from a scientific friend of mine that believing in a god will make the rainforests die!!!!!!!! Its true! :P

[EtherealN]

Hitman,

So why are we seeing ozone depletion around the north pole too then? It's very interesting to study maps of ozone depletion in the northern hemisphere - there's severe depletion way down to the tropic (including europe and the continental US).

 

As for pulling ions... Come on. This is simple chemistry. Certain molecules react in certain ways with certain other molecules, and some are affected by different things. Some can sit in reservoir until hit by sunlight (which is why the poles are most affected: during the arctic and antarctic winters there is no sunlight for a long time), which turns them into free radicals that steal oxygen from the ozone. The Antarctic is most severely hit because wind patterns around it cause very little of the reservoir that has accumulated before to disperse northwarsds, and during spring sun stuff start happening.

 

And by the way, the only people who really listen to Al Gore is the gullible public. You don't really think actual scientists take notes from crappy movies made by Al Gore, do you? Politicians, PR officers and the public might. Scientists care about the data that their instruments give them.

 

And seriously - understanding mother nature is complicated, since there's so many forces at play. That's why scientists use this thing called the "scientific method", and write complex research papers that are reviewed (often by their competitors in the field) before getting published. Scientists don't sit on vague memories of high-school science class and publish random ideas they had at night over a beer, they work very hard to ensure that their data is genuine and that they have applied appropriate controls to eliminate factors.

 

(For example, the "trick" mentioned in those "Climategate" e-mails is nothing odd or uncommon: they were investigating a type of data (tree rings I believe) to get an additional source of temperature data for the past: but since there are two major aspects that affect tree growth (temperature and CO2 abundance) and they were looking for only one, one scientist had quantified the effect of CO2 abundance alone and developed a model for eliminating the CO2 effect from the data - that was the "trick" and the "decline". Of course, the common public whose highest achieved science education may be high school or less sees those words and apply their own meaning to them, and then people go bonkers.)

 

Again: you can read the papers for yourself. Go to a library or other public database and read it.

[EtherealN]

Secondly - rising sea levels - ice caps melting ect.. Does ice not float? Surely it would displace its own weight? I see tapastries made in 1066 with london tower on them - and low and behold - the big iron dock rings are still the same height from the water as they are now nearly 1000 years later.

 

Ice displaces it's own weight, but volume and weight are different things - remember that there's a lot of ice above the water level, and also a lot of ice on land (greenland, antarctica etc).

 

Oh, and btw, the Thames does use regulators for height when necessary, though I haven't doublechecked their usage. But remember that this is a river that empties TO the ocean, it doesn't take water FROM the ocean (except at high tide). Only really extreme sea level rises will influence what you are talking about.

 

Firstly, the hole in the ozone layer may have been there forever, i dont know, neither does anyone else who isnt a professor. As far as i am concerned they only discovered antartica in 1860 and its not like they kept graphs of the resident suntan levels. Wasnt 1860 kind of around the beginning of the industrial revolution?

 

The baseline measurements are from somewhere in the 50's, btw.

But remember that there's many avenues to get data. We do have direct temperature data for several hundred thousand years, and we have atmospheric chemical composition data for as many years if you go by direct reading, and rock sampling has given temperature/chemical data for ~4.5 billion years. (Though obviously the margins of error increase the further back we go.)

Edited June 25, 2010 by EtherealN

[hitman]

Thank you! you just proved my point. i encourage studying the environment and im sure i would find it fascinating if what we were being told were all true. that hole in the ozone has been there since we figured out how to look for them. we haven't been studying this long enough to make informed decisions, let alone have al gore tell us we're killing the planet. im Not saying what they are saying isn't true, im saying they Dont yet have all the information, and they shouldn't be spreading fear and panic to everyone.

[EtherealN]

You really need to re-read what I wrote hitman, and once again: maybe look at the actual data.

 

Also, the scientists aren't spreading "fear and panic". That's the "job" of media, Al Gore and such people - usually people that don't have the faintest about how to read a scientific paper. Stop putting up strawmen. I don't care about what Al Gore says. Scientists don't care about what Al Gore says. From what I've gathered so far you're the only one in this discussion that has ever bothered listening to him. ;)

 

EDIT:

"we haven't been studying this long enough to make informed decisions"

 

Yes, we have. There's this thing called "chemistry" and "physics". What certain chemicals do to each other under various influences isn't something we started looking at 20 years ago, or even in the 1950's when antarctic ozone levels were being measured for the first time.

Edited June 25, 2010 by EtherealN

[asparagin]

Regarding the communication between scientists and public:

 

It is really a challenge these days. But the hypocrisy comes at light when you come to think in terms of money or ways that disrupt our "luxurious" ways of life. No one disagrees with science when it comes to your cell phones, i-pods and cpus. Science is out friend there. No one contests if the gps data from you navi is correct.

On the other hand when we hear "ecologically" we equal it with "more moving of our a##es" and since we don't like, suddenly science maybe isn't right, we need proofs.

 

Now,open youtube, go to categories / science and technology: what you get is videos about i-pod. Honestly I feel ashamed to be a scientist.

[talisman]

Ice displaces it's own weight, but volume and weight are different things - remember that there's a lot of ice above the water level, and also a lot of ice on land (greenland, antarctica etc).

 

Oh, and btw, the Thames does use regulators for height when necessary, though I haven't doublechecked their usage. But remember that this is a river that empties TO the ocean, it doesn't take water FROM the ocean (except at high tide). Only really extreme sea level rises will influence what you are talking about.

 

 

 

The baseline measurements are from somewhere in the 50's, btw.

But remember that there's many avenues to get data. We do have direct temperature data for several hundred thousand years, and we have atmospheric chemical composition data for as many years if you go by direct reading, and rock sampling has given temperature/chemical data for ~4.5 billion years. (Though obviously the margins of error increase the further back we go.)

 

Sigh - Point completly missed.

 

All i read was "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH temperature/chemical data".

 

I dont care. The point of my post WAS that i dont care. Why are you trying to convice me - I dont care!

 

Its all for the good, i dont care why, for whatever reason, all i know (like everyone else) is that the world is a better place for it. OK - settle down now.

PS - i dont even know what Al Gore said and 99.99% of the popullation of the world dosent know either - they do as their asked. the world is asking people to recycle their car batteries and cardboard. This makes things better, I dont care why.

 

Did they have the Themes barrier in 1066? The barrier was built for surge tides. Not for global warming - other wise there would be one in glasgow - bristol - aberdeen - dundee- manchester and - in fact EVERY other costal city in the world. But again - i dont care.

[sobek]

lines of flux travel south and pull ions down full force just like it would a magnet.

 

Well, sorry to step in like this but that is just mumbo jumbo. Have you ever managed to pull the salt ions out of a glass of salt water? No? Guess what, magnetism doesn't work on non moving electrically charged particles. You wan't to proove science wrong? Get some decent data and stop posting hokum on a webforum.

[hitman]

So basically what you are saying is that Not only we can model what this planet is doing now, but we also have models of what the planet has been doing for over 365 million years? i state that time frame because that's supposedly when life started to evolve. my point is that even though what your saying is true, its far from 100% accurate simply because we weren't there to study it then. the big picture is what they see. they miss the other billions of pictures that tell the whole story. im smart enough to know that their hypotheses aren't finished yet. mother nature is simple to understand when all you have to realize is that it works. stop analyzing it and enjoy it, or keep analyzing it and tell me what's going on with it after you find all the answers and can make at least a 90% correct informed decision. I Dont listen to gullible people, i Dont listen to doomsayers, i Dont even watch that much tv. i can form my own opinions based on what i know, what i've seen and experience. Dont tell us (and by us i mean just me) that you have all the correct answers. only then will i say i told you so or you tell me you told me so.

[hitman]

Well, sorry to step in like this but that is just mumbo jumbo. Have you ever managed to pull the salt ions out of a glass of salt water? No? Guess what, magnetism doesn't work on non moving electrically charged particles. You wan't to proove science wrong? Get some decent data and stop posting hokum on a webforum.

 

Have you ever tried to boil water to separate salt from water? do you know what happens when particles collide? i guess that magnetic field doesn't pull anything down and can't create a disturbance in anything. its kinda like throwing a rock in water and seeing waves. in your case i guess it won't do anything like that because ions Dont obey newtons laws. Shut up.

Edited June 25, 2010 by hitman

[GGTharos]

A magnetic field can deflect, but not attract or repell, electrically charged particles such as ions. And as much as ions/paricles of those sizes might like Newton's laws, they're also subject to quantum mechanics especially when it comes to interacting with other charged particles.

[Pilotasso]

Right, the right hand rule aplies to the magnetic fields iso lines, so it means 90º's off the source intead of heading straight for it. :)

[winz]

So basically what you are saying is that Not only we can model what this planet is doing now, but we also have models of what the planet has been doing for over 365 million years?

Geology gives us pretty decent idea about how the planet atmosphere looked at the time.

 

stop analyzing it and enjoy it, or keep analyzing it and tell me what's going on with it after you find all the answers and can make at least a 90% correct informed decision.

In other words, do not care if we are affecting the enviroment in a serious way. Don't care if there are indications of us having significant impact on the ecosystem. I don't want to hear your blah blah scientific dooms talk I do not understand, I want you to invent gizmos to help me enjoy life. And I don't care if my grandgrandchildren will live in a strinkhole, because I'll be long dead by then.

[hitman]

Geology gives us pretty decent idea about how the planet atmosphere looked at the time.

 

 

In other words, do not care if we are affecting the enviroment in a serious way. Don't care if there are indications of us having significant impact on the ecosystem. I don't want to hear your blah blah scientific dooms talk I do not understand, I want you to invent gizmos to help me enjoy life. And I don't care if my grandgrandchildren will live in a strinkhole, because I'll be long dead by then.

 

Yeah geology will tell you how much oxygen was present on tuesday, june 14, 365 million bc. and as far as the rest of the bull@hit you just said, i didn't say dont study, i said prove it with hard ironclad evidence that we are. you can take all that is said out of context to suit yourself. im sure you can turn it into a nice story for your kids when this planet doesn't become a big stinking ball of Shit.

[hitman]

A magnetic field can deflect, but not attract or repell, electrically charged particles such as ions. And as much as ions/paricles of those sizes might like Newton's laws, they're also subject to quantum mechanics especially when it comes to interacting with other charged particles.

 

but the poles dont attract? i find that hard to believe...with all those meteorites that burn up in the atmosphere, which are mostly nickel and iron, can't be carried away and Not collide and disturb anything...?

[GGTharos]

What the heck do meteorites have to do with anything? Those are destroyed by friction, and are attracted by gravity.

The reason solar wind is deflected from the earth by its magnetic field is that the field works perpendicular to those charged particles which are coming STRAIGHT at the earth from the sun. You don't see them getting sucked into humongous polar vortices.

 

Magnetic fields work PERPENDICULAR to the path of an electrically charged particle.

 

They do not attract or repel the particle towards/away from a pole.

 

 

but the poles dont attract? i find that hard to believe...with all those meteorites that burn up in the atmosphere, which are mostly nickel and iron, can't be carried away and Not collide and disturb anything...?

[winz]

Yeah geology will tell you how much oxygen was present on tuesday, june 14, 365 million bc.

No, geology will tell you how much CO2 was present in atmosphere during centuries. Making fun of it will not change that fact. You don't need exact daily measurement.

 

and as far as the rest of the bull@hit you just said, i didn't say dont study, i said prove it with hard ironclad evidence that we are. you can take all that is said out of context to suit yourself. im sure you can turn it into a nice story for your kids when this planet doesn't become a big stinking ball of Shit.

You are saying there are not proofs, that models are inaccurate, that we know 'shit' about effect we can have. Yet I bet that you haven't read even one research paper on the matter. You are pulling facts out of thin air, and call that 'intelligence'. You are discarding years of scientific research. In your every post you convice us, that you know nothing about chemistry, physic and basic scientific methods, you confuse CO with CO2 and yet you have the guts to challenge people who studied years, whos research are reviewed and put under test.

 

You can call shit and bullshit all day long. It won't increase your posts value by a bit ;)

 

You know what? Even Einsteins theories aren't 100% confirmed yet. But I bet you have no problem in using them in daily life, i.e. by using GPS.

[hitman]

What the heck do meteorites have to do with anything? Those are destroyed by friction, and are attracted by gravity.

The reason solar wind is deflected from the earth by its magnetic field is that the field works perpendicular to those charged particles which are coming STRAIGHT at the earth from the sun. You don't see them getting sucked into humongous polar vortices.

 

Magnetic fields work PERPENDICULAR to the path of an electrically charged particle.

 

They do not attract or repel the particle towards/away from a pole.

 

I understand how magnetism works. i also know that when a meteor burns up in the atmosphere it leaves behind dust, which can be carried away by magnetism. even i know you can't destroy or create energy, so to say that there isn't anything within those lines of flux that can't disrupt anything in the atmosphere. put a magnet on some iron shavings and you'll see what i mean.

[Pilotasso]

If the poles atracted sun rays I guess penguins would be extinct by now :D

[GGTharos]

Which way does iron dust fly when you throw it up in the air?

 

I understand how magnetism works. i also know that when a meteor burns up in the atmosphere it leaves behind dust, which can be carried away by magnetism. even i know you can't destroy or create energy, so to say that there isn't anything within those lines of flux that can't disrupt anything in the atmosphere. put a magnet on some iron shavings and you'll see what i mean.

[hitman]

No, geology will tell you how much CO2 was present in atmosphere during centuries. Making fun of it will not change that fact. You don't need exact daily measurement.

 

 

You are saying there are not proofs, that models are inaccurate, that we know 'shit' about effect we can have. Yet I bet that you haven't read even one research paper on the matter. You are pulling facts out of thin air, and call that 'intelligence'. You are discarding years of scientific research. In your every post you convice us, that you know nothing about chemistry, physic and basic scientific methods, you confuse CO with CO2 and yet you have the guts to challenge people who studied years, whos research are reviewed and put under test.

 

You can call shit and bullshit all day long. It won't increase your posts value by a bit ;)

 

You know what? Even Einsteins theories aren't 100% confirmed yet. But I bet you have no problem in using them in daily life, i.e. by using GPS.

 

So by having the amount of CO2 is enough to tell us what the atmosphere was millions of years ago? what about all the other millions of factors that matter? you can't get accurate with ice samples and a few lines of dirt. apparently this is just enough to accurately gauge the planets cycles. i would estimate that 15% of those theories are correct. einstein was a mathematician, and his theories work and are correct enough to have been proven! the global warning thing is very much still in infancy. ill never say it will never be accurate, im saying its Not even close to accurate now. why? because with how much we know about the past pales in comparison with what we Dont know. I witt always side with evolution, so when these theories are more on the realistic side, ill start to listen.

[hitman]

No, geology will tell you how much CO2 was present in atmosphere during centuries. Making fun of it will not change that fact. You don't need exact daily measurement.

 

 

You are saying there are not proofs, that models are inaccurate, that we know 'shit' about effect we can have. Yet I bet that you haven't read even one research paper on the matter. You are pulling facts out of thin air, and call that 'intelligence'. You are discarding years of scientific research. In your every post you convice us, that you know nothing about chemistry, physic and basic scientific methods, you confuse CO with CO2 and yet you have the guts to challenge people who studied years, whos research are reviewed and put under test.

 

You can call shit and bullshit all day long. It won't increase your posts value by a bit ;)

 

You know what? Even Einsteins theories aren't 100% confirmed yet. But I bet you have no problem in using them in daily life, i.e. by using GPS.

 

Which way does iron dust fly when you throw it up in the air?

 

I would say wherever the strongest force takes it. what's the greatest force at 15 miles and above? earths rotation? polar attraction? solar bombardment? gravity? its Not the wind like it would be at 1000 feet altitude.

[sobek]

Have you ever tried to boil water to separate salt from water? do you know what happens when particles collide? i guess that magnetic field doesn't pull anything down and can't create a disturbance in anything. its kinda like throwing a rock in water and seeing waves. in your case i guess it won't do anything like that because ions Dont obey newtons laws. Shut up.

 

I don't get WTH you are even trying to say or how that relates to what i said?!?

 

So ions don't obey newtons laws. What does newton have to do with basic electrodynamics?

 

YGBSM, all you are putting forth is a bunch of half knowledge with which you seek to prove theorys wrong that you don't even understand.