F-22 program saved!!!

[topol-m]

Well i remember the IRBIS-E radar can detect 3m^2 targets at 400 km and track up to 30 targets in TWS. So i doubt the PAK-FA will have something less powerful. ;) The 0.01m^2 targets are still detected at 90km but this could be improved in PAK-FAs radar. Also we don`t whats the performance of the AN/APG-77 against 0.01m^2 targets...

BTW what "EINS" stands for?

[GGTharos]

Yes, if they use a PESA antenna. An AESA antenna cannot transmit that much power for you though.

 

If they use PESA they will certainly be at disadvantage to the Raptor in terms of ECM, even though they'll be able to detect it farther.

 

The problem with detection ranges is that these are 'clean air' ranges, and worth little in the presence of clutter or other noise (noise jamming for one). The moment you have to turn down gain, you're starting to go blind (I played with radar gain for a while ... it's crazy what you can see with/without it :P )

 

The F-22 has around 1500 TR elements transmitting at 4W each - I heard 8 somewhere, but I'm not certain if that is so. If it is 8, you're looking at one of the most powerful airborne AESA antennae in existance :P

From knowing the power you can estimate range. But, as mentioned before, power is not everything despite its significance.

 

 

EINS is enhanced INS - specifically GPS-enhanced INS. INS position is automatically corrected every x minutes by GPS.

Edited June 24, 2009 by GGTharos

[topol-m]

I don`t think PAK-FA will use Zhuk-AE/FGA35 and it will have 1100 T/R modules, nor the IRBIS-E. A completely new radar to be designed for it seems more plausible. But we shall see... I still think the difference in detection of 0.01m^2 RCS targets wouldn`t be significant, but who knows.

[GGTharos]

90km for detection is basically like a F-16 detecting an F-15 ... you know he's there, but you're closing at 35km/min, and since he detected you earlier he's already higher and faster than you are. That's sort of how it works :)

 

Unless you can out-race him in that 60 sec, he has all the BVR advantages.

 

For the radar, I think even the F-22 radar got upgrade (APG-77V1) so I'm not surprised if the Russian manufacturers also make upgrades.

Depending on how large the nosecone is and how advanced their ability to manufacture (or buy, I guess!) TR's is, they might get the same density and relatively similar performance.

 

At this point it's all about cooling systems, metal purities, design elegance etc - in this case, right now the west has the advantage, but that might not mean much.

[topol-m]

Yep and the CAESAR AESA radar for Eurofighter Tranch3 looks promising with 1400-1500 T/R.

[Flyby]

worst gas guzzler?

 

Man! You guys talk as though you're actually deep in the defense contractor business. Is all this info readily available on the web? It certainly is impressive to read your back-and-forths. Maybe I'll do a search and see how the two planes stack up in flatulence evacuation. The winner will probably be able to detect those emissions at a a greater distance!:P

Anyway, you guys do impress.

Flyby out

[RedTiger]

Man! You guys talk as though you're actually deep in the defense contractor business. Is all this info readily available on the web? It certainly is impressive to read your back-and-forths. Maybe I'll do a search and see how the two planes stack up in flatulence evacuation. The winner will probably be able to detect those emissions at a a greater distance!:P

Anyway, you guys do impress.

Flyby out

 

QFT!

 

I've commented before on the fact that LOMAC/DCS/Eagle Dynamics seems to attract a crap load of knowledgeable people. Between the aerospace experts, science experts, computer experts, real life military pilots and aircraft maintenance people, I think the regular joes might be in the minority! I just started playing because I wanted to fly some planes around and shoot at stuff. :music_whistling:

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

That's why you don't need F-22. :)

We pay 613+ SEK per litre ....

 

Yes 30 years from now, we might needed it. Right now, we don't.

The F-22 system has a projected 30+ year service life, from what I recall. Are you certain that in these 30 years there will be no threat where the F-22 would be expedient?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

We don't have that capability now? Why do you want to intervene everywhere in the world? Do you want to take the world over, by force? In todays age, I belive that technologies like what Pruus have are needed more then F/22 technologies. Yes I want F-22, but no, I don't want my government printing money to buy it. I have already seen that happening and vitnesed the end of societies becuase of that.

Having capability to interveen and reach any given part of the world still affects the sphere of influence, ....

 

This is really worrisome to me. You are talking about the "interest" of the "countries". There are countries that don't want to be part of NATO, you know? What are you going to do with them?

...the defense of a countries interests and consequently the quality of life of its citizens indirectly.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

F-15 (thanks God) have never killed an airplane of its own size and class (do you know any different). Not to mention that tactical situation favoring F-15 big time in all killings that I am aware of. This is not to minimize the quality of this incredible aircraft, but these are just facts.

US F-15s have a perfect dogfight record in live combat, ....

[GGTharos]

Actually an F-15 shot down another F-15 during a training exercise in Japan. Someone forgot to set their Master Arm to 'SIM' .... yes, true story.

 

Another such incident occured five years earlier in Elmendorf, but that jet landed and was repaired.

 

F-15 (thanks God) have never killed an airplane of its own size and class (do you know any different). Not to mention that tactical situation favoring F-15 big time in all killings that I am aware of. This is not to minimize the quality of this incredible aircraft, but these are just facts.

[Groove]

How about we actually wait for the PAK-FA to get operational in significant numbers before we even compare it to the F-22. And by operational i dont mean 2 or 3 pieces. Than we should check which upgrades the F-22 got by that time ( year 2020 or later ) and check the technology gap between this planes, my guess are it will still be 20 or more years.

[Maximus_G]

Jon Soltz, Phil Gingrey Debate Funding For New Line Of Fighter Jets, The F-22 Raptor

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/24/jon-soltz-phil-gingrey-de_n_220529.html

 

Gingrey replied that the F-22 Raptor is absolutely necessary to maintain our dominance of the sky, and just because we haven't had to use them yet doesn't mean we don't need them. He cited our submarines and ballistic missiles as examples, but also included this rather odd and very personal analogy:

 

"I have a .44 Magnum that I keep under my pillow every night for the last 15 years. Everybody knows I've got and I haven't had to use it. It's the same thing with this F-22 Raptor."

 

"Politics is a dangerous business, son" :D

 

---

 

White House threatens F-22 veto

http://www.alamogordonews.com/news/ci_12683914

 

WASHINGTON - Preparing for a possible showdown with Congress, the White House on Wednesday threatened to veto legislation authorizing a $680 billion military budget if it contains money for jet fighters the Pentagon doesn't want.

 

In a statement, the White House Office of Management and Budget said $369 million that a House committee added to the bill as a downpayment for 12 additional F-22 Raptor fighters runs counter to the ''collective judgment'' of the military's top leaders.

 

Defense Secretary Robert Gates wants to end production of the radar-evading F-22 after 187 aircraft have been built. Last week, in a preview of the White House's veto threat, Gates called the funding boost a ''big problem.''

[-Bazong-]

Gingrey replied that the F-22 Raptor is absolutely necessary to maintain our dominance of the sky, and just because we haven't had to use them yet doesn't mean we don't need them. He cited our submarines and ballistic missiles as examples, but also included this rather odd and very personal analogy:

 

"I have a .44 Magnum that I keep under my pillow every night for the last 15 years. Everybody knows I've got and I haven't had to use it. It's the same thing with this F-22 Raptor."

 

ROFL :lol:

no comment..

 

edit: sorry

 

edit2: btw, very interesting discussion, fascinating how much insight some of you guys seam to have!!

Edited June 25, 2009 by -Bazong-
sorry

[Flyby]

QFT!

 

I've commented before on the fact that LOMAC/DCS/Eagle Dynamics seems to attract a crap load of knowledgeable people. Between the aerospace experts, science experts, computer experts, real life military pilots and aircraft maintenance people, I think the regular joes might be in the minority! I just started playing because I wanted to fly some planes around and shoot at stuff. :music_whistling:

+1, RT. A guy could get an inferiority complex hangin with this hi-tech crowd. Might even lead to contracting small cox (well, not me).:D

Flyby out

[Pilotasso]

This is really worrisome to me. You are talking about the "interest" of the "countries". There are countries that don't want to be part of NATO, you know? What are you going to do with them?

 

It gets as simple as this: A country like mine ceases to have enough navy ships to patroll the seas, another country contests the sea territory of the first. So you better have means or youll loose fishing rights SAR responsability rights and even comercial rights.

 

Wich means you would have to pay other contries the goods once could be provided by your own. Your export/inport rate shifts on the negative side, thus your country has to produce more pay more taxes and so on so forth.

[GGTharos]

QFT!

 

I've commented before on the fact that LOMAC/DCS/Eagle Dynamics seems to attract a crap load of knowledgeable people. Between the aerospace experts, science experts, computer experts, real life military pilots and aircraft maintenance people, I think the regular joes might be in the minority! I just started playing because I wanted to fly some planes around and shoot at stuff. :music_whistling:

 

 

+1, RT. A guy could get an inferiority complex hangin with this hi-tech crowd. Might even lead to contracting small cox (well, not me).:D

Flyby out

 

 

Oh, oh, oh! Me, me, pick me. ;)

 

Says the guy who doesn't think carrying A2G payloads is A2G capability and the guy who thinks he knows more than the 'politicians', and claims to know what the SecDef is on about.

 

So when you run out of useful things to say you move on to +1 character assassination via 'well they can't possibly know more than we know'?

 

I'm sorry we've got you running in fear of getting smallcox :D

[nscode]

I'm sorry we've got you running in fear of getting smallcox :D

 

Here's a good movie recommendation, if you find English translation (I'm sure there's one): Variola vera

 

Sorry for offtopic :)

Edited June 25, 2009 by nscode

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Now you are talking Pilotasso. You need F-22 that can protect YOUR fishing rights, the rights that YOU set up and the borders that YOU draw. Same is with the oil fields and oil exploitation right? Why are we surprised that Iran wants a nuclear bomb?

It gets as simple as this: A country like mine ceases to have enough navy ships to patroll the seas, another country contests the sea territory of the first. So you better have means or youll loose fishing rights SAR responsability rights and even comercial rights.

 

Wich means you would have to pay other contries the goods once could be provided by your own. Your export/inport rate shifts on the negative side, thus your country has to produce more pay more taxes and so on so forth.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

He, he , he ... All right, the F-15 have never score a kill on enemy aircraft of the same class and generation. Again, this does not minimize the quality of this incredible airplane.

 

SAM = Stealth STOP!

 

Actually an F-15 shot down another F-15 during a training exercise in Japan. Someone forgot to set their Master Arm to 'SIM' .... yes, true story.

 

Another such incident occured five years earlier in Elmendorf, but that jet landed and was repaired.

[RedTiger]

Oh, oh, oh! Me, me, pick me. ;)

 

Says the guy who doesn't think carrying A2G payloads is A2G capability and the guy who thinks he knows more than the 'politicians', and claims to know what the SecDef is on about.

 

So when you run out of useful things to say you move on to +1 character assassination via 'well they can't possibly know more than we know'?

 

I'm sorry we've got you running in fear of getting smallcox :D

 

Character assassination? If you think what I said is character assassination 1. You're wrong 2. I'd hate to see what you think when you see the real nasty underbelly of what the internet has to offer.

 

No, sorry, what I said was meant as humor through self-deprecation, which is probably the only humor you can use on the internet without everyone getting their egos/feelings hurt. I said my opinion about A2G and you showed me otherwise and I shut up.

 

I self-deprecate because I know that most people here know more than me about this stuff, but you know what? This forum is an oddity and not even close to the norm. You don't see medival warfare experts on fantasy RPG forums discussing the intricacies of how chainmail is forged, for example. Its part of what makes these boards entertaining, but it can also be a strange sometimes if you just step back for a moment, detach yourself from it and view it from an outsider's perspective. ;) Many people have an area they are knowlegeable about (myself included), but that area is not usually interesting to the lay person and they don't have computer games that require knowledge of the subject to play.

 

I have no desire to pick a fight on this forum and no reason to pick a fight with you. I apologize if you were offended by what I said.

Edited June 25, 2009 by RedTiger

[GGTharos]

Bah, are you saying I'm too sensitive?

 

Okay, I'll shut up now then ;)

 

In any case, getting back to F-22's and F-15's shooting down other F-15's... :D

[topol-m]

In any case, getting back to F-22's and F-15's shooting down other F-15's... :D

 

OT but anyway - were those 2 F-15s japanese? :huh:

[GGTharos]

THere were two different incidents: In Elmendorf, both were USAF, and the damaged jet landed and was repaired and put back in service.

 

In the other incident, both aircraft were Japanese, and the target was destroyed in this case (pilot ejected safely).

 

In both cases a sidewinder missile was involved.

[Pilotasso]

Now you are talking Pilotasso. You need F-22 that can protect YOUR fishing rights, the rights that YOU set up and the borders that YOU draw. Same is with the oil fields and oil exploitation right? Why are we surprised that Iran wants a nuclear bomb?

 

Why is Iran so special that it needs nukes and his neighbors dont? You wont protect sovereignty or commercial rights with nukes. The fact that Iran feels the need for nukes is out of fear to be crushed by messing up with too many people at the same time.