Hope I made the right choice.

[Shortcut]

I’ve been wanting to upgrade my Thrust master HOATS joysticks base for about a year now so I started shopping. I came across the Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base but it"s quite pricey but my A-10 stick will work on it. Then found the Winwing Viper Ace EX on Amazon for less money and seems quit good.. I have been bouncing between the two for a few weeks and then Virpil reduced the price of the CM3 base for their Black Friday sale and it"s cheaper then the Winwing so I purchased the Virpil. Hope I made the right choice.

[Panzerlang]

Virpil gear is over-engineered and at the top of the quality tree. Lol.

[Jonay]

1 hour ago, Panzerlang said:

Virpil gear is over-engineered and at the top of the quality tree. Lol.

you're joking right? Both VKB and Winwing produce much higher quality gear than Virpil.   And yes, I have products from all three, so I can do direct comparison.  The only reason I have the Virpil collective is because they were first to get one out before Winwing, (that wasn't a 3D printed mess)/

[Panzerlang]

1 hour ago, Jonay said:

you're joking right? Both VKB and Winwing produce much higher quality gear than Virpil.   And yes, I have products from all three, so I can do direct comparison.  The only reason I have the Virpil collective is because they were first to get one out before Winwing, (that wasn't a 3D printed mess)/

Please describe the higher quality. I have no experience of either but I've heard bad things about Winwing.

[Shortcut]

I also would like to know whats inferior with Virpil compared Winwing.  So far all my research puts Virpil on par with VBK especially the  MongoosT-50CM3 Base. If you could kindly point out the differences because I can save a lot of money going Winwing. One difference  is Winwing has a 1 year warranty and Virpil has 2 and Virpil has a warehouse in Florida so parts should be quick to get if needed.

I have time to cancel my order as it will not be here for about 4 weeks I also have the Constellation ALPHA Prime [R] on order I hope that's not a bad item also.

By the way thanks for the above reply's

[Nightdare]

4 hours ago, Jonay said:

you're joking right?

 

I got the 1st gen Virpil Mongoost and Winwing Orion2 here mounted side by side

The Winwing doesn't feel flimsy, but the Virpil I can beat a man to death with it, wipe off the blood and put it back in my pit for some AAR practice

Not so much with the WW and it's plastic casing breaking

Though I must admit that the buttons, toggles and hats on the Virpil are more mushy, then again, it's the 1st gen and don't know if this has been improved over time

[MAXsenna]

Get an FFB base. Can't believe people who consider getting one of those antique ones this day and age...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Nightdare]

5 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Get an FFB base. Can't believe people who consider getting one of those antique ones this day and age...

 

Meh, prehistoric tech, Electro-telekinesis control is the new interface

 

....Somehow Back to the future comes to mind:

"You mean you have to use your hands?"

[MAXsenna]

 
Meh, prehistoric tech, Electro-telekinesis control is the new interface
 
....Somehow Back to the future comes to mind:
"You mean you have to use your hands?"

Of course, but that's for modules in the next millennium!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Scott-S6]

On 12/3/2024 at 4:32 AM, MAXsenna said:

Get an FFB base. Can't believe people who consider getting one of those antique ones this day and age...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

For many jets an FFB is pointless.

[MAXsenna]

39 minutes ago, Scott-S6 said:

For many jets an FFB is pointless.

LOL! Yes, like an ordinary stick is pointless in the F-16. Mirage 2K and F/A-18C might not benefit as much, while ALL OTHER jets plus helicopters and Warbirds reaps the benefits. You ever tried one?

Cheers!

[Scott-S6]

On 12/4/2024 at 11:30 PM, MAXsenna said:

LOL! Yes, like an ordinary stick is pointless in the F-16. Mirage 2K and F/A-18C might not benefit as much, while ALL OTHER jets plus helicopters and Warbirds reaps the benefits. You ever tried one?

Cheers!

Yes, I've tried them. The Brunner specifically.

What benefit is there in the FA18? Having it vibrate when you shoot the gun and similar? Pass. I mostly fly the most modern jets so it's value to me is limited. if you fly warbirds then it's very significant, sure, but if I flew warbirds I would want a stick with the roll axis high on the column, not on the floor.

The bigger problem is that there is still no option that I consider acceptable at the moment. The Brunner is well made but not well designed and Moza hardware has always been mediocre and overpriced (their MH16 grip I tested and tore down does nothing to change that impression). The Rhino is a very cool garage project but needs refinement. The market here needs some time to mature, in a year or two it'll be a very different landscape.

I may get one to mess about with when Virpil's drops (better electronics, software and grip compatibility are major positives over WW unless they surprise us). I will kick that off with a proper heat saturation test complete with temp sensors on the motors and an ammeter to measure exactly when and how much it throttles. Disappointing that we still don't have that data on the Moza...

For context here - I have a realsim sidestick just for the F16 and virtual fly pedals. Those I consider to be "good". The rest of my kit is currently virpil's best stuff which I consider to be just about acceptable (from a hardware perspective, their electronics and software are definitely good). I'm in the process of building a throttle from scratch (Honeywell switches, all machined, no 3D printing) because there's nothing out there that I consider good enough. 

Am I super picky about hardware? Yes...

Edited December 6, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Scott-S6]

On 12/2/2024 at 2:27 PM, Shortcut said:

I’ve been wanting to upgrade my Thrust master HOATS joysticks base for about a year now so I started shopping. I came across the Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base but it"s quite pricey but my A-10 stick will work on it. Then found the Winwing Viper Ace EX on Amazon for less money and seems quit good.. I have been bouncing between the two for a few weeks and then Virpil reduced the price of the CM3 base for their Black Friday sale and it"s cheaper then the Winwing so I purchased the Virpil. Hope I made the right choice.

If you want a conventional base (not force feedback or force sensing) then the virpil CM might be the best one available. Hardware, electronics, software and support are all top of the stack. You've got a bunch of cams and springs for different feels and spring force can be easily adjusted in place from the top. You've got lots of compatible (and mostly compatible) grips to choose from.

The one caveat - it is not suitable for use sitting on your desktop. It's too tall and has no suitable base. You must attach it to a cockpit frame or desk mount.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Scott-S6]

On 12/2/2024 at 11:31 PM, Panzerlang said:

Please describe the higher quality. I have no experience of either but I've heard bad things about Winwing.

TBF, Virpil's collective and the Apache grip are definitely not the best things they've made. They could be better. If he's basing his opinion of all virpil kit on those then I can see why he'd be underwhelmed. Who's making a better collective though? It's not WW or VKB.

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, Scott-S6 said:

What benefit is there in the FA18?

In your comment after this, you waxed poetic that with Virpil you get "a bunch of cams and springs for different feels and spring force can be easily adjusted in place from the top." But requiring a dismount and 'operation' to change these things is far inferior than just being able to tune them on them fly using software with a FFB base.

1 hour ago, Scott-S6 said:

Moza hardware has always been mediocre and overpriced (their MH16 grip I tested and tore down does nothing to change that impression).

It's their first flight sim product, so of course it was never going to be that great. They need to learn. And I don't agree that their sim racing hardware is mediocre and overpriced. Or at least, no more than the competition.

 

[Shortcut]

Well we may have screw up but my family ordered me the MOZA AB9 FFB because they knew I was looking at it. The latest reviews seem pretty good but firmware needs some work but that is common with most new products. I'll be using my TM Warthog stick for now. Nice Christmas gift.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Shortcut

[Scott-S6]

On 12/5/2024 at 2:56 PM, Aapje said:

In your comment after this, you waxed poetic that with Virpil you get "a bunch of cams and springs for different feels and spring force can be easily adjusted in place from the top." But requiring a dismount and 'operation' to change these things is far inferior than just being able to tune them on them fly using software with a FFB base.

Hardly waxing poetic, these are things that a conventional base should have so that it can be setup correctly. A base without them is simply inadequate. Lots of people fly a single aircraft exclusively for months or years so that on the fly change capability isn't much of a plus for them, assuming that they even want to change it.

I do fly different aircraft and play different games with my cockpit. I've never felt the need to change springs or cams after initial setup. It's not like any of the FFBs currently available are capable of offering anywhere close to the correct stick forces anyway.

As for Moza hardware - I gave them a chance to see if they'd improved with the MH16, they have not.

Edited December 6, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Aapje]

Using the MH16 is not a requirement, though. You can use the Gunfighter grip with the VPForce adapter. And if they fix the Virpil compatibility, then you could use that one.

[Scott-S6]

25 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Using the MH16 is not a requirement, though. You can use the Gunfighter grip with the VPForce adapter. And if they fix the Virpil compatibility, then you could use that one.

Obviously and not the point. It's another flawed and mediocre product from Moza, as expected. (Not to mention that it's a complete mess with non-moza bases despite the promised "effortless plug and play")

The MH16 grip isn't even a good match for the AB9 since the AB9 is best used center stick (all of the applications where FFB has something significant to offer are center stick) and the MH16 is really only suitable for side stick.

Edited December 6, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Dragon1-1]

On 12/5/2024 at 1:52 PM, Scott-S6 said:

The one caveat - it is not suitable for use sitting on your desktop. It's too tall and has no suitable base. You must attach it to a cockpit frame or desk mount.

I feel like that's true of just about any high end base. Desk mount is a must for Winwing, too, otherwise it's awkwardly tall. From what I've seen of the others, the same is true of them as well, except maybe the Thrustmaster. A cam-based gimbal inherently takes a lot of vertical space, and you need fairly stiff springs for a proper feel, anyway, meaning that you'd need to either stick it to the desk somehow (Winwing's misbegotten suction cups) or have a ridiculously heavy mounting plate (TM's solution). You need a desk mount, which is easy enough to build yourself, if you're the tinkering kind (a 3D printer is nice for this, but not a must), while if you're not, Monstertech has a selection of mounts.

For what it's worth, for my stick and throttle. I used a bunch of 20x60 v-slot profiles, two cheap steel plates from a hardware store, two toggle clamps from Aliexpress (cheap ones often used in woodworking), and 3D printed mounting brackets originally designed for TM hardware. Monstertech has a fancy coating for the plates, I used felt pads of the sort you stick on the bottom of chair legs.  Had to cut threads into the ends of aluminum profiles, but otherwise, assembly was uncomplicated.

Edited December 6, 2024 by Dragon1-1

[Aapje]

@Scott-S6

Moza obviously designed things with side-mounting as the goal, which you can also see in their desk mount.

To be honest, I think that you are being a bit unreasonable in expecting near perfection from a company that is new to flight simming, and whose product is itself a very new product category (high Nm FFB bases). 

Right now I would characterize the AB9 as an early adopter product, but that a perfectly normal part of the development cycle of a new product category. Companies need to learn what consumers want, what the best technical solutions are, etc.

[Scott-S6]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

@Scott-S6

Moza obviously designed things with side-mounting as the goal, which you can also see in their desk mount.

To be honest, I think that you are being a bit unreasonable in expecting near perfection from a company that is new to flight simming, and whose product is itself a very new product category (high Nm FFB bases). 

Right now I would characterize the AB9 as an early adopter product, but that a perfectly normal part of the development cycle of a new product category. Companies need to learn what consumers want, what the best technical solutions are, etc.

Yes, they probably did design it for side mounting - we can see that in the inability to rotate the grip unless you use a third party extension. A pretty poor concept, IMO.

And I agree that it's an immature product in an immature market but that doesn't change the standards I expect in hardware, why would it? I'm perfectly content to wait for something better from a better company. 

None of that excuses the substantial issues with the MH16.

[Scott-S6]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I feel like that's true of just about any high end base. Desk mount is a must for Winwing, too, otherwise it's awkwardly tall. From what I've seen of the others, the same is true of them as well, except maybe the Thrustmaster. 

You're not wrong (and TBH, desktop use is ergonomically poor regardless) but the CM base doesn't even offer you something to attempt desktop use. Thought that was worth pointing out to someone coming from TM who might not have considered that.

[Shortcut]

I'm planing on mounting the AB9 to a stand I built for my TM setup which is 4 inch PVC bolted to 3/4 inch plywood with the stick bolted to the top and it sits between my legs. I can change the height by changing the length of the 4 inch center PVC this setup is super strong.

[Scott-S6]

22 hours ago, Shortcut said:

I'm planing on mounting the AB9 to a stand I built for my TM setup which is 4 inch PVC bolted to 3/4 inch plywood with the stick bolted to the top and it sits between my legs. I can change the height by changing the length of the 4 inch center PVC this setup is super strong.

Do you use an extension? The AB9 is pretty bulky so you might need to tweak your mount a little to get the stick where you want it. Also, you'll ideally want to rotate the grip for a center mount, which you can't do without an extension.

Good that you've got a proper mount, using a stick sat on the desk is horrible.