correct as is Cant slew TGP in AG mode with no AG weapons loaded

[Moonshine]

Its been like this for a while, wonder if thats correct.

Scenario:

i was flying some CAP, had only A-A weapons with me but i did have both pods (HTS, TGP) with me.

While i was cruising around waiting for things to happen i thought id locate some SAMs. switched to AG mode, locked some things up with the HAD and tried to refine the position with the TGP. didnt work as it did not let me slew the TGP at all. this is due to the fact that with no AG weapons attached, the AG radar is stuck in AGR mode as the default delivery mode is set to CCIP. and we cant change the radar modes or the delivery modes at all, not even GM or GMT is possible. i doubt that is correct.

as a workaround i had to use NAV mode with the HAD and TGP as then the radar is in CRM mode by default, not "hindering" me slewing the pod.

wonder if thats correct because if you expend all AG munitions but were in CCRP or PRE during weapon delivery, you can continue to use HAD and TGP in AG mode no problem. 

i reproduced it in a short track where i was trying the same thing with locating an SA-3 using first the AG mastermode, then the NAV mastermode.

track attached

Cant_slew_TGP_in_AG.trk

Edited December 8, 2024 by Moonshine

[Lord Vader]

Hello @Moonshine

Unlike other aircraft, such as the A-10C, the F-16C logic follows a single line-of-sight to a single SPI, so it's not possible to move sensors independently to obtain different POI and then make them SPI. The only time this can be done is in NAV mode while the TPOD or any other sensor can be tracking different points. You said so yourself.

Now, the question is why is the TPOD stuck as if the delivery mode is CCIP when there are no AG weapons on board? Well, if no air-to-ground munitions are loaded, then no air-to-ground SMS profiles are available to provide the weapon delivery sub-mode selection. So it "defaults" to a CCIP behaviour since it's the first mode in that list. In the future, this may be mitigated with the DTC system allowing us to predefine a weapon profile, but that's not available right now. I believe what you'd want was to engage a snowplow mode when switching to AG, however, this is only available if the weapon to employ is set to a pre-planned mode, like CCRP/LADD/PRE. 

As we said in the past when this particular question was raised, we always ask why enter AG mode if this is an "Air to Ground weapon employment mode", while there are no weapons to employ at all? If you have a full implementation of the TGP (FCR and HTS) modes in NAV master mode, allowing you to operate all sensor logics, there's no actual reason to switch to AG at all. Unless you want to use guns for strafing but that mode, again, requires the FCR in AGR mode. 

In a future update (very soon) we will have a new version of the DCS: F-16C Viper manual that will have an excellent explanation of all these logics. Rest assured we're replicating this module as close to reality as possible.

[Wing]

8 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Hello @Moonshine

Unlike other aircraft, such as the A-10C, the F-16C logic follows a single line-of-sight to a single SPI, so it's not possible to move sensors independently to obtain different POI and then make them SPI. The only time this can be done is in NAV mode while the TPOD or any other sensor can be tracking different points. You said so yourself.

Now, the question is why is the TPOD stuck as if the delivery mode is CCIP when there are no AG weapons on board? Well, if no air-to-ground munitions are loaded, then no air-to-ground SMS profiles are available to provide the weapon delivery sub-mode selection. So it "defaults" to a CCIP behaviour since it's the first mode in that list. In the future, this may be mitigated with the DTC system allowing us to predefine a weapon profile, but that's not available right now. I believe what you'd want was to engage a snowplow mode when switching to AG, however, this is only available if the weapon to employ is set to a pre-planned mode, like CCRP/LADD/PRE. 

As we said in the past when this particular question was raised, we always ask why enter AG mode if this is an "Air to Ground weapon employment mode", while there are no weapons to employ at all? If you have a full implementation of the TGP (FCR and HTS) modes in NAV master mode, allowing you to operate all sensor logics, there's no actual reason to switch to AG at all. Unless you want to use guns for strafing but that mode, again, requires the FCR in AGR mode. 

In a future update (very soon) we will have a new version of the DCS: F-16C Viper manual that will have an excellent explanation of all these logics. Rest assured we're replicating this module as close to reality as possible.

F-16 Maintainers require no muns onboard while slewing the TGP for ops checks. I believe that the TGP being "stuck" is not correct behavior, whether weapons are loaded or not. 

[Lord Vader]

5 minutes ago, Wing said:

F-16 Maintainers require no muns onboard while slewing the TGP for ops checks. I believe that the TGP being "stuck" is not correct behavior, whether weapons are loaded or not. 

Again, the TPOD is slewable in NAV mode without weapons on board, for sure. The limitation is only in AG mode which I'm sure the aircraft maintainers wouldn't require to engage while performing tests. 

[Wing]

6 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

Again, the TPOD is slewable in NAV mode without weapons on board, for sure. The limitation is only in AG mode which I'm sure the aircraft maintainers wouldn't require to engage while performing tests. 

Ofcourse in NAV mode, but I am talking about A/G mode as well while on the ground.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Wing

[Moonshine]

Unless i tell the SMS via DTC or manual entry what is equipped on the jet it doesnt know anything about weapons loaded or not. I should be able to fully manipulate delivery modes and radar modes WITHOUT having to have anything loaded. The fact we cant even manually tell the jet what stores we have is another thing not done right. 
somehow however the jet knows I expended all my AG munitions and yet i still can manipulate all delivery modes. I just have to have loaded up something first. This can not be correct.

With that i should be able to put AG mode in, master arm to „SIM“ and the jet give me every delivery option and symbology just as if i actually had a weapon loaded. We cant even do that. The artificial barrier that the computer doesnt let us manipulate stores pages, delivery modes and radar modes is false. These are not hard linked to „no weapon no manipulation“

[BIGNEWY]

If you have public evidence please DM me. 

thank you 

[Moonshine]

dm sent

[Moonshine]

50 minutes ago, Lord Vader said:

So it "defaults" to a CCIP behaviour since it's the first mode in that list. In the future, this may be mitigated with the DTC system allowing us to predefine a weapon profile, but that's not available right now.

it is fine if it "defaults" to that but currently it is "exclusively" that and that is not right. i should be able to change it, not only via DTC but also by simply changing the delivery mode from CCIP to CCRP, DTOS etc. regardless of weapons on board or not. 
in addition, DTC should not be the only way to manipulate the SMS and telling the jet what is loaded. manuals clearly describe how its done manually as well. somewhat of a different topic as we lack the function in game as of now but sadly directly linked to this issue.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

please read the DM,

if anyone else has public evidence please feel free to DM me

Thank you