NVIDIA 5 Series cards - Get your wallets ready boys and girls....

[Aapje]

13 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

I would say I could hope that nobody buys the new 5xxx series and I really hope nobody buys the scalpers sales if it comes to that again.. I do believe I am at my last years of gaming.. if prices keep going like they are..

You mean that you dislike that the price went down for the 5070 and 5070 Ti?

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

You mean that you dislike that the price went down for the 5070 and 5070 Ti?

Not to speak for others, but I think he means he's tired of Nvidia's greed and baloney sales pitch...like the concept of a 5070 delivering the performance of a 4090, as Nvidia marketing BS would have you believe.  The effect is that, while they're hawking this blather, the reality is that in order to exceed performance of a 4090, you'd have to go with a 5090 - which at release has an MSRP that is ~25% higher than the 4090 was (2000 v 1600).

And I think it's a pretty safe bet you won't find one for MSRP for quite some time (if at all).  I wouldn't be surprised to see them at $2500+, or even approaching $3000.  4090s are still over MSRP some two years after release.

And the actual, hardware/rasterization "horsepower" - while admittedly yet to be confirmed - is expected to be around the same margin of increase; some reputable reviewers have already said they anticipate something like 25% performance increase for 25% price increase.  No big whoop. 

Not this drivel that you can spend <$600 and get performance on par with a 4090.  Balderdash.  Smoke and mirrors.

Maybe you believe that nonsense.  I'm kinda like @The_Nephilim - I hope this blows up in Nvidia's faces.

In the DerBauer video above at 6:40 he discusses specifically the 5070 vs 4090 thing, and ends by saying "Just don't do stupid actions; a 4090 is still a very good card", and then he repeats this at the end of the video.  He also says "the 5080 is already slower than the 4090, so..."  His English isn't perfect, but I think what's he's saying is crystal clear.

 

Edited January 16 by kksnowbear

[Aapje]

@kksnowbear

I understand that people get frustrated and angry, but it leads to rather silly statements, that in turn can deceive people into doing irrational things.

I checked and @The_Nephilim owns a 4070 Ti. The 5070 Ti should be a modest improvement in price/performance over the 4070 Ti, so it is silly to argue that people should not buy the 50-series. They should buy it if they need a new card (in this class), or if it is a sufficient improvement in their view, and there is no better alternative for their situation/preferences/etc.

And complaining about the value of the 5090 is like complaining that a Ferrari doesn't provide value for money. At the top end, the design goal is not value for money.

Ultimately, @The_Nephilim didn't say not to buy the 5090 specifically, but all of the 50-series cards. So you don't get to cherry pick a single card to defend his statement.

Quote

Not this drivel that you can spend <$600 and get performance on par with a 4090.  Balderdash.  Smoke and mirrors.

Maybe you believe that nonsense. 

I don't believe the nonsense, but Nvidia also lied about the 40-series, the 30-series, and about the 20-series (which is great for raytracing, right? RIGHT?). I just ignore the lies and look at the actual product.

But obviously, @The_Nephilim doesn't actually believe that the lying is the problem, because he did buy a 40-series card. That he got lied to about. So the lying clearly is not the actual issue.

Besides, if you dismiss an actually good product because of false marketing, then you are actually making the same mistake as when you like a bad product because of false marketing. In both cases you ignore the traits of the actual product in favor of smoke and mirrors.

Quote

I think he means he's tired of Nvidia's greed

The question remains to what extent Nvidia is greedy, or to what extent circumstances changed. If the interests of gamers and business demand used to match up well, with both wanting lots of rasterization, then gamers benefit, because the cost of rasterization hardware R&D can be shared between gamers and business, and Nvidia can make GPU dies that are great for both use cases. But if now businesses want different things, then gamers are worse off because Nvidia spends lots of R&D and die space on AI cores and other things, even though it doesn't benefit gamers that much.

And if the advance in process nodes slows down, then Nvidia no longer gets the same 'free' performance from the chip makers, and so they also can't pass that on, so we no longer get that big jump in extra performance for the same price thanks to the chip makers.

But people are notoriously bad at understanding things like this. For example, they tend to blame or praise politicians for economic downturns or economic booms that the politician has little control over.

Edited January 16 by Aapje

[kksnowbear]

2 hours ago, Aapje said:

So you don't get to cherry pick a single card to defend his statement

I can defend whatever I see fit, thanks.

He's not wrong for feeling the way he does, and it's wrong to imply that his statements are silly and lead to people doing irrational things.

What is also wrong is Nvidia's ongoing and increasing greed.  For most people, the fact that eVGA decided to bail on the entire thing, after years of being king of the GPU hill, is evidence enough.

I don't think people are actually as bad at understanding this as you do.  I think in large measure, they're starting to understand fairly well.  If each successive generation of GPUs were actually that much an improvement/value proposition, they wouldn't need to force obsolescence like they've done forever.

If they were on the level and treated customers with respect, then why even try to fly this BS about things like the 5070?  I'll tell you why: Because they know some people are still uninformed enough to fall for it.  There are still an alarming number of people who believe that any 40xx card is inherently better than any 30xx card.  I run into this constantly, even among 'experts'.  The reality is that the majority of people who use PCs for gaming don't really posses that level of expertise; I'd say about 1 in 10 that I do builds for have something beyond even basic knowledge.  A couple builds over 5-10 years does not equate in any way to a lifetime of studying and actual production.

The xx70s have always been among Nvidia's most lucrative and popular segments.  So why not use that popularity against the consumer, by implying (if not stating outright) the latest generation xx70 will outperform the prior gen flagship?

It's wrong, plain and simple.

Edited January 16 by kksnowbear

[Aapje]

Almost nothing in your comment actually engages with my arguments. I never claimed that Nvidia showed respect for customers or such. But you fail to reply to my argument that they've showed a lack of respect to customers for the last generations as well, lying each and every time. So why would this generation be the one where one should boycott Nvidia due to them deceiving customers? I'm still waiting for a rational answer.

And my point remains that for the 5080, 5070 Ti and 5070, price/performance seems to increase with the announced pricing. So if you judge the cards on their own merits, then one should buy the 5080 over the 4080, the 5070 Ti over the 4070 Ti and the 5070 over the 4070, assuming MSRP, or similar markups compared to MSRP.

Quote

There are still an alarming number of people who believe that any 40xx card is inherently better than any 30xx card.

Yes, but I've also seen the opposite, where criticism of the new generation leads people to falsely believe that the older card in the same tier is somehow faster.

[kksnowbear]

Whether/by how much Nvidia may or may not have misrepresented in the past isn't at issue.  People can be lied to for any length of time before they decide they're done with it.

What's at issue is people finally deciding now they're done with it due to the lies and greed, and no one is required to provide you with any answer at all as to why they decide as they do - whether you consider it rational or not.  Keep waiting if you want, but I don't suggest you hold your breath.

I personally see enough of their reasoning to see it as a reasonable decision.  As always, what's "worth it" is absolutely and entirely up to the individual.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

And complaining about the value of the 5090 is like complaining that a Ferrari doesn't provide value for money. At the top end, the design goal is not value for money.

The wait list to buy these things tells you clearly that customers do see a value in them. Even if those customers are crypto miners In fact when you look at how they sell out like they do they’re actually underpriced. As hard as that is to say…

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

The question remains to what extent Nvidia is greedy

Making a profit isn’t greed, it’s just business. Fortunately anyone who can afford a card like that probably owns Nvidia stock, so… cheers

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The wait list to buy these things tells you clearly that customers do see a value in them. Even if those customers are crypto miners In fact when you look at how they sell out like they do they’re actually underpriced. As hard as that is to say…

Making a profit isn’t greed, it’s just business. Fortunately anyone who can afford a card like that probably owns Nvidia stock, so… cheers

lol The wait list to buy these things just as easily indicates how much money people are willing to spend for nothing more than being able to brag about being the first to get one.

Making a profit is part of business.  Excessive greed is bad business, and eventually people start to realize it.

Of course, there will always still be those who want to post in a sig on a forum somewhere that they have a 5090.  These exceptions are just exactly that.

Edited January 16 by kksnowbear

[Aapje]

3 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Whether/by how much Nvidia may or may not have misrepresented in the past isn't at issue.  People can be lied to for any length of time before they decide they're done with it.

What's at issue is people finally deciding now they're done with it due to the lies and greed, and no one is required to provide you with any answer at all as to why they decide as they do - whether you consider it rational or not.

And you completely ignore that the other person was not just explaining their own decision, but was talking about what they want others to do. At that point I do expect a better reason than 'it exceeded my own personal and very subjective threshold.'

@SharpeXB

In a perfectly competitive market, there is no room for greed, as one would be outcompeted. However, in reality there are a variety of ways in which companies can take advantage of consumers.

[kksnowbear]

1 minute ago, Aapje said:

At that point I do expect a better reason than 'it exceeded my own personal and very subjective threshold.'

You are not entitled to any such expectation.  No one owes you an explanation, and anyone is free to make their own recommendations to others, regardless of whether you agree.

[SharpeXB]

30 minutes ago, Aapje said:

In a perfectly competitive market, there is no room for greed, as one would be outcompeted. However, in reality there are a variety of ways in which companies can take advantage of consumers.

There’s competition in the GPU industry, it’s not a monopoly. But Nvidia definitely is in the lead, that’s for sure. At least in this segment. Again I don’t feel taken advantage of because I probably made enough money off them last year to buy a trunk full of those cards.

If Nvidia was actually greedy they’d be selling those cards for the real “free market” price you see on eBay

Edited January 16 by SharpeXB

[The_Nephilim]

Well guys either way nVidia Prices are only set at MSRP so we will see what they actually cost at release and I am sure the scalpers are going to get most of the cards and people will end up buying those because I guess they have more money then myself..

 

I only bought the 4070Ti as I thought it was a 256bit bus which it is not and barely can run the G2 at Full tilt and I have to also run in at 60 hz so yes I was burned with the 4xxx series but it is my own fault but these new 5xxx are just smoke and mirrors as someone else said.. plus I bought the 4070ti with a payment plan so the cost seemed to have been offset.. I paid  750$ for it.. but the price can go up with the different versions they come up with like a 3 fan OC Special edition or some crap..

 

Was it worth it NO!!. if you think all this AI crap and fake frames are going to be great well I hope you enjoy fake frames as it is basically like ASW and motion reprojection and I have to tell you it is awfull when the scene gets busy.. but I guess we will see.

 

either way it is My Opinion if you want to buy a new card and can afford it all more better for you.. my friend is getting a 5070Ti when they come out so I am interested in what the real world difference is with some benchmarks.. as for me yes I have a decent system but I got the CPU for Free and my motherboard and memory I traded up for it with a little cash. Also my G2 I bought used so it was half the price of a new one. so the illusion I spent alot of money for my system is just that an illusion.

 

I am by no means rich I live a comfortable life and enjoy some gear but at the rate things are going I just can see affording this gear much longer.  I really like gaming but it is near the tipping point for me. IDK what else to say I am glad you think what nVidia is selling this time is a great value for the money but I see it different.. but I guess nVidia has to keep the shareholders happy. 

 

I like nVidia but the reality is the more people spend on these cards like when the scalpers start selling them is pushing me out of the market for affording this gear.. 

 

I bought a 1080 in what was it 2018 and it was about 530usd now the xx80 series cards are over 1000. the price has increased massivly and I thought 500 for a GPU was crazy back then they are just at insane levels and I see it going further faster then the value for the money..

 

either way I think I will just digress..

 

 

 

Edited January 16 by The_Nephilim

[LucShep]

Some great points in the discussion, can't disagree with any of it.
I think what we can all agree is that the GPU industry/market has changed since the pandemic.  And, so far, it has definitely not changed for the better.

We can also see, going through nearly two decades, that the raw performance jump between Nvidia GPU generations has decreased (especially in mid to high range models).
The performance % difference of 5000 series over 4000 series is expected to be as low (if not lower) as 2000 series was over 1000 series, and that was pretty mediocre.
Perhaps we may have hit the silicone limits.  Perhaps this software based AI rubish is the (very) unfortunate solution for the forseeable future.

Also, you should all know by now that, for GPUs, the MSRP ends up being almost ficticious (it's always same story every release). 
As said before in this topic, it's pretty certain that real prices will be considerably higher than that (for sure in Europe, confirmed through contacts in retail business), and comparatively higher than previous generation if taking to account the suspected raw performance % benefit. 

Right now, Nvidia dominates and "it is what it is".
AMD hasn't been able to keep up (and not hopeful about the RX9070/XT myself). Intel slowly getting there (B580/B570) but not yet.

And, more than the silicone limits or AI demands, it's this Nvidia "total dominance" that drives silly prices.
Which, unfortunately, many will still gladly sustain (and here I agree with both @The_Nephilim and @kksnowbear). Sometimes I'm dumbfounded how both PC gamers and HW enthusiasts can be so sheep-ish, and unable to react to any of it.

Yes, it's a bit of a conumdrum... the world economy is not that great, yet thousands upon thousands spend "second-hand car money" on a single overpriced GPU piece which usually is relevant for only three years, or four with luck.
Price and worth of GPUs has been often discussed and, as everything hardware, is many times in "the eye of the beholder". But, this time around, I suspect it may change.

Personally, by this time last year, I was expecting to upgrade my RTX3090 to at least an RTX5080 and, actually, have now decided against it.
To be fair, my RTX3090 still runs absolutely great, plays everything I throw at it in 4K as I like, with the sole exception of one single title in VR (and we all know which one is it...).
Will hold to it for as long as I can, calmly wait and see. Not going to spend my hard earned money this time around, solely on matter of principle.

Regardless, I'll still say to anyone using an older/slower GPU and looking to upgrade - the used and outlet market is always a valid solution (and it never failed me).
There will still be the ocasional worthy deal for second-hand or refurbished units in the market for certain models of previous GPU generation(s), which will still be able to do almost as much and last almost as long as the newest ones, for far, far less.   As in, "don't donate another stupid leather jacket to that guy"... 

 

Edited January 17 by LucShep

[Aapje]

Ultimately, the prices will be whatever the market will bear. If people don't buy enough of the cards for a certain price, then either the prices will go down, or the cards will become less strong, or a bit of both. But if they will buy enough, then complaining won't help any. Ferrari also doesn't care that most people either can't afford a Ferrari or considers the cars overpriced, because they sell enough at good margins.

Although a complicating factor is that there is substantial demands for cards for AI. Waiting for the AI boom to deflate, which is almost certainly going to happen, might mean much better prices, in particular for the top tier. Then again, Nvidia seems to have decided that they will just delay new products if demand crashes. In itself, that is a sign that they don't consider AMD to be a sufficient threat to force them to keep an aggressive release schedule, or lower their prices if demand goes down.

Note that according to economic theory, perfect competition that leaves no room for shenanigans, requires a whole lot of things to be true, that are never true in practice. (Economists have a habit of 'solving' difficult problems by pretending that the complications do not exist). You don't need a monopoly for there to be abusive business practices.

[The_Nephilim]

well the GPU's are less strong and high in price I am unsure why you say if they do not sell enough GPU's the opposite will happen it clearly did not.. Altho they are set at a MSRP Currently that is almost never the case and if it turns out the 5xxx series AI Fake frame rendering does not work out as hoped I guess the market for old cards will just go up..

Sorry to rant but it just sucks thats all, as I like gaming but it is turning very expensive venture. I need a cheaper hobby.  and it is not just the GPU's all the Components are getting expensive. I struggled to find a motherboard that was not 4-500usd for the new 2xx series CPU's.

 

Heck my Hotas cougar is near 18years old haha!! my Soundblaster Z I had that for as long as it was out for and the other items in my kit Santa gave me

Edited January 17 by The_Nephilim

[Panzerlang]

Cynicism alert...I have little doubt NVidia has their tech one or two (or three...) generations ahead of what they're currently selling. They trickle it out like treacle to maximise revenue.

I reckon.

[Aapje]

10 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

well the GPU's are less strong and high in price I am unsure why you say if they do not sell enough GPU's the opposite will happen it clearly did not.

First of all, the GPUs are not getting less strong and price/performance does keep increasing, although not as fast as in the past. Of course, you, like many others, may feel that you are entitled to faster progress. But if you cannot distinguish between things getting worse versus your expectations not being met, then a fact-based discussion is not possible.

Secondly, they did respond by a lack of sales for the 4080 by lowering the price of the 4080 Super and 5080 to $1k. And they dropped the price of the 5070 and 5070 Ti by $50.

10 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

Sorry to rant but it just sucks thats all, as I like gaming but it is turning very expensive venture. I need a cheaper hobby.  and it is not just the GPU's all the Components are getting expensive. I struggled to find a motherboard that was not 4-500usd for the new 2xx series CPU's.

Motherboards have become more expensive and I paid twice as much for my current motherboard as for the previous of the same model (but an earlier gen), but there is still plenty of choice of good motherboards below $300.

10 hours ago, The_Nephilim said:

I bought a 1080 in what was it 2018 and it was about 530usd now the xx80 series cards are over 1000. the price has increased massivly and I thought 500 for a GPU was crazy back then they are just at insane levels and I see it going further faster then the value for the money..

I'll look at MSRP, which is more objective, especially since you appear to have bought a previous generation card back then. The 1080 had a $699 MSRP in 2016. In todays money, with inflation, that makes for about $914. So the price of the 80-class has gone up, but not by that much. And the 4080 is over three times as fast, and the 5080 a bit faster still. So you get triple the performance for 10% more money if you adjust for inflation.

[LucShep]

3 hours ago, Aapje said:

I'll look at MSRP, which is more objective, especially since you appear to have bought a previous generation card back then. The 1080 had a $699 MSRP in 2016. In todays money, with inflation, that makes for about $914. So the price of the 80-class has gone up, but not by that much. And the 4080 is over three times as fast, and the 5080 a bit faster still. So you get triple the performance for 10% more money if you adjust for inflation.

Nope.
After the pandemic MSRP became sinonymous with "nothing" because that baseline became ficticious -- 25% to 50% over MSRP for "real price" is normal these days for GPUs.
Which was not the case up to that point - GPUs were still selling at MSRP, even in Europe.

• GTX670 "real price at retailers" was 300€~400€ in 2012 (depending on model version), which is 380€ to 510€ in today's money.
• GTX770 "real price at retailers" was 300€~400€ in 2013 (depending on model version), which is 380€ to 510€ in today's money.
• GTX970 "real price at retailers" was 300€~400€ in 2014/2015 (depending on model version), which is 370€ to 500€ in today's money.
• GTX1070 "real price at retailers" was 350€~450€ in 2016/2017 (depending on model version), which is 440€ to 550€ in today's money.
• RTX2070/S "real price at retailers" was 375€~475€ in 2018/2019 (depending on model version and after AMD RX5700XT came out), that's 450€ to 570€ in today's money.

Notice a pattern here?  

The 70 series always had been a reference in each generation of Nvidia, because they represented that sort of a "sweet spot", fast enough and not outrageously expensive.

Where is that since the pandemic? 
Or more precisely, since the RTX3070, which was always sold at ridiculous prices? (often seen at over 750€!)

You see, the pandemic and the mining craze was a justification then for the outrageous prices, but all that has been gone for years.
Yet that practice with prices was, and is, mantained by the manufacturers - we've been duped.

Do your own quick research - at least in Europe, the RTX4070 and RTX4070 Super still sell for 700€ to 850€, in this very day.

And now, does anyone really believe the upcoming RTX5070 will be at lower prices than that?  "MSRP where are thou?"


PS: you can also apply that to the 60, to the 80 and, to some extent, to the 90 series as well.

 

Edited January 17 by LucShep
spelling(?)

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

But if you cannot distinguish between things getting worse versus your expectations not being met, then a fact-based discussion is not possible.

"Things getting worse" factually includes when expectations are not being met.  It is neither required nor necessary to distinguish between the two for the purposes of this discussion. 

You're just trying to make it sound like someone's being unreasonable - but that's only according to your opinion.  My opinion, as well as others here and elsewhere, is that he's not being unreasonable by being fed up with Nvidia's marketing BS and greed.

16 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Nope.
After the pandemic MSRP became sinonymous with "nothing" because that baseline became fictious - 25% to 50% over MSRP for "real price" is normal these days for GPUs.
Which was not the case up to that point - GPUs were still selling at MSRP, even in Europe.

• GTX670 "real price at retailers" was 300€~400€ in 2012 (depending on model version), which is 380€ to 510€ in today's money.
• GTX770 "real price at retailers" was 300€~400€ in 2013 (depending on model version), which is 380€ to 510€ in today's money.
• GTX970 "real price at retailers" was 300€~400€ in 2014 (depending on model version), which is 370€ to 500€ in today's money.
• GTX1070 "real price at retailers" was 350€~450€ in 2016 (depending on model version), which is 440€ to 550€ in today's money.
• RTX2070/S "real price at retailers" was 350€~450€ in 2019 (depending on model version and after AMD RX5700XT came out), which is 420€ to 540€ in today's money.

Notice a pattern here?  

The 70 series always have been a reference in each generation of Nvidia, because they represented that sort of a "sweet spot", fast enough and not outrageously expensive.

Where is that since the pandemic? 
Or more precisely, since the RTX3070, which was always sold at ridiculous prices (often seen at 750€+!).

Do your own quick research, but I'll advance right away that, at least in Europe, the RTX4070 and RTX4070 Super still sell for 700€ to 850€, in this very day.

And now, does anyone really believe the upcoming RTX5070 will be at lower prices than that?  "MSRP where are thou"

And, without going into this (very thorough and insightful) level of detail, I'll just second the assertion that the "MSRP" argument is also BS.  As @LucShep has indicated, the 'real' price of these cards is typically 25-50% more (and doesn't necessarily get back down to MRP over time).

Edited January 17 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Really?  Examples please?

 ....I find that very fishy! (pardon my reaction)

Are you self employed in an area that requires GPU as professional tool, and exempt of VAT? ....or some sort of "very odd special discount" with certain retailers?
 

I really don’t think I have. I wasn’t buying them from third party sites, I think every card I purchased before the 4090 was direct from EVGA. And before the pandemic. Of course I had to wait for them. I certainly never paid 25%-50% more than the MSRP like you mention. And shopping for the last 4090 they all seemed to be consistently priced. Funny all the 4090s now I see are more expensive than what I paid You can see some crazy prices on Amazon but again I didn’t shop there. 
The US does not have a VAT. Fun fact, until several years ago there was no sales tax here on anything you purchased online. So my previous gaming PC and these cards were all tax free. That’s changed now but it sure was great. 

46 minutes ago, LucShep said:

You see, the pandemic and the mining craze was a justification then for the outrageous prices, but all that has been gone for years.

The price for anything isn’t “justified” it’s simply the result of supply and demand. Unfortunately with these things demand is very high. Again the MSRP doesn’t reflect the actual market conditions. It’s just a baseline. The “S” there is for suggested. If anything these things are priced unrealistically low as hard as that is to deal with. 

[unlikely_spider]

Not to defend Nvidia here and their various anti-consumer practices, but I've certainly paid MSRP for a few video cards since 2020. Founder's Edition 3080, a 3060ti for the wife's PC, then a 4080 from Micro Center 1.5 years ago.

[kksnowbear]

Uhhh...

The laws regarding charging sales tax were changed beginning in 2016.  Most online sellers were required to collect sales tax by 2017 (Amazon started in April 2017, strictly as one example).

The 4090 wasn't released until some 5 years later, in 2022.

(I believe it accurate to say that some states still don't charge sales tax, but the states that do charge it have been doing so since well before the 4090 was released, thus making it impossible that any system containing a 4090 [or a 4090 by itself] could have been bought without paying sales tax, in any state that pays sales tax).

It would seem some claims don't stand up to fact-checking.

Edited January 17 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, unlikely_spider said:

Not to defend Nvidia here and their various anti-consumer practices, but I've certainly paid MSRP for a few video cards since 2020. Founder's Edition 3080, a 3060ti for the wife's PC, then a 4080 from Micro Center 1.5 years ago.

There are always exceptions.  I've bought three 4090s for less than MSRP.  But, as @LucShep indicated, these were exceptional deals/circumstances that really can't be applied as rule.

Edited January 17 by kksnowbear

[unlikely_spider]

5 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

There are always exceptions.  I've bought three 4090s for much less than MSRP.  But, as @LucShep indicated, these were exceptional deals/circumstances that really can't be applied as rule.

And to clarify, I bought all of mine new, from a retailer. Not sure how the situation is/was in other countries, but in the US at least I haven't had much issue getting what I've wanted at MSRP. It was tougher than usual when the 3000-series came out, but persistence landed me two FE cards from Best Buy. No way I'm playing anyone hundreds of dollars extra for the privilege of selling one to me, especially seeing how high MSRP is already. And Micro Center seems to price these things fairly as well, though to my understanding many of these items are in-store only. But I'm lucky enough to live close to one. $1199 for my 4080 when it came out.

Edited January 17 by unlikely_spider

[kksnowbear]

8 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

And to clarify, I bought all of mine new, from a retailer. Not sure how the situation is/was in other countries, but in the US at least I haven't had much issue getting what I've wanted at MSRP. It was tougher than usual when the 3000-series came out, but persistence landed me two FE cards from Best Buy. No way I'm playing anyone hundreds of dollars extra for the privilege of selling one to me, especially seeing how high MSRP is already. And Micro Center seems to price these things fairly as well, though to my understanding many of these items are in-store only. But I'm lucky enough to live close to one.

Yes, I live near MicroCenter too. 

You've been fortunate.  I've been fortunate. What I'm saying is two guys, a half-dozen exceptional deals between them, does not a rule make, that's all.

Among other things, as great as MicroCenter is, the reality is that less people (by far) have that option than the comparatively few of us lucky enough to have it. (And I believe it accurate to say they don't ship, at least most things anyway).

Edited January 17 by kksnowbear