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Will F-35A be equipped with AESA radar?

Jasiński

By Jasiński
in DCS: F-35A

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NytHawk

NytHawk

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Jasiński said:

I know but I wonder if they will be able to implement it, or are they limited by documents or something like that.

 

I'm confident ED can develop the technology required for a decent AESA model, however there will need to be a large amount of estimation regarding the F35s exact radar specifications and capabilities.

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okopanja

okopanja

Posted
Posted
Just now, NytHawk said:

I'm confident ED can develop the technology required for a decent AESA model, however there will need to be a large amount of estimation regarding the F35s exact radar specifications and capabilities.

I share your confidence, especially since the locations of all objects are well known inside the game engine.

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TheMightyMirage

TheMightyMirage

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Jasiński said:

I know but I wonder if they will be able to implement it, or are they limited by documents or something like that.

 

Most of the technology developed for the APG-77 was used in the AN/APG-81 radar for the F-35, and the technology from the APG-81 was applied to the upgraded APG-77(V)1. And, we have open source docs detailing the development of the AN/APG-77 and the (V)1 version too, so it is safe to say that we will get something quite accurate.

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bies

bies

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Jasiński said:

I'm wondering if AESA radar will be implemented or we will just get very powerful Pulse Doppler

It will have AESA. But F-35 AESA is not just a radar detecting air and ground targets at the same time, it's also an RWR, a jammer, an electronic warfare device, a communication datalink with missiles etc. And it can do all this things at once. And dozen of other strictly classified things.

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okopanja

okopanja

Posted
Posted
40 minutes ago, bies said:

It will have AESA. But F-35 AESA is not just a radar detecting air and ground targets at the same time, it's also an RWR, a jammer, an electronic warfare device, a communication datalink with missiles etc. And it can do all this things at once. And dozen of other strictly classified things.

It can not do all of this things at the same time with no performance degradation.

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Robi Hobby

Robi Hobby

Posted
Posted

I'm really looking forward to it! And this Module is very important for young future Real Pilots.

The German Air Force has ordered 35 F-35As.

This Module from DCS will help the new Pilots get to know the F-35A.  😉

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NytHawk

NytHawk

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, F-2 said:

 

It definitely wouldn't surprise me if the real AN/APG-81s overall search/tracking performance in a SWT mode exceeds what's shown in this video, even back when this video was released in 2006. I am aware the AN/APG-81 will automatically slave a beam to targets identified by the DAS and other data inputs.
Additionally there is a declassified presentation from VX-31 online claiming the AN/APG-79 can achieve up to 2800 beams/sec from circa 2008.

Edited by NytHawk
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British_Dragon_14

British_Dragon_14

Posted
Posted

My God! What's the range on this Radar? At least 80 miles I see! Crazy!

It has over one thousand different Radar sensors that move individually on one plate, that can simultaneously track at least 23 airborne units. This is going to be the new Magic, beaming all of the real time data to other allied forces using technology more advanced than Link 16 etc.

The High Definition Ground Radar looks amazing too! No need to visual ID ground units as the Radar and OS does it for you. Amazing technology!

I hope we get long range missiles with this as well.

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Temetre

Temetre

Posted
Posted (edited)
vor 20 Stunden schrieb NytHawk:

I'm confident ED can develop the technology required for a decent AESA model, however there will need to be a large amount of estimation regarding the F35s exact radar specifications and capabilities.

ED has struggled with the Viper radar, and the Hornet cant (couldnt?) use the radar and jammer at the same time. An AESA is so much more complicated (and classified), I really cant see how this is supposed to work out.

This is the kinda task that would be difficult for RB/HB radar devs, and theyve done the best radars in the game.

Edited by Temetre
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NytHawk

NytHawk

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Temetre said:

ED has struggled with the Viper radar, and the Hornet cant (couldnt?) use the radar and jammer at the same time. An AESA is so much more complicated (and classified), I really cant see how this is supposed to work out.

The F16/F18 radars have progressed a lot over the past year or so with the addition of new modes, false targets, detection probability etc, and phase 3 of the F16/F18 radars will include additional things like lookdown penalties etc.
I think over the next 2 years, ED will be able to improve upon their modelling and technology, and make a somewhat believable AN/APG-81.

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Temetre

Temetre

Posted
Posted
vor 12 Minuten schrieb NytHawk:

The F16/F18 radars have progressed a lot over the past year or so with the addition of new modes, false targets, detection probability etc, and phase 3 of the F16/F18 radars will include additional things like lookdown penalties etc.
I think over the next 2 years, ED will be able to improve upon their modelling and technology, and make a somewhat believable AN/APG-81.

ED has improved for sure, but it took a lot of time; and as you say, theres still issue with lookdown etc.

I dont think 2 years are nearly enough to arrive at an AESA simulation. Those are way more complex, counter-intuitive and just poorly doccumented+classified.

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mikey69420

mikey69420

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Temetre said:

ED has improved for sure, but it took a lot of time; and as you say, theres still issue with lookdown etc.

I dont think 2 years are nearly enough to arrive at an AESA simulation. Those are way more complex, counter-intuitive and just poorly doccumented+classified.

I agree, but as a small detour, a simple AESA radar with full array beam steering isn't actually that hard to implement, the mathematical model is pretty straight forward to figure out (you simply consider a phase offset in each antenna of the array and calculate the field equations from there). If you want something more accurate, I'd say simply look up a picture of the AN/APG-81 radar on the internet, try to copy it's topology into a finite element solver like ansys hfss and simulate the shape of the beam. 

However we both know that the real radar is much much more complex than that. Consider now that individual antennas are steered, well, you've now got infinite combinations of how the beams may look like (not all of them may be interesting however). Not only that but no one outside the industry knows exactly how the AN/APG-81 controls it's individual antennas but even if we knew, it would be crazy hard to simulate this in real time in DCS but still, given enough time, they could simulate different beam combinations in finite element solvers and then do some careful approximations to have a believable model of AESA beams in DCS under different configurations.
But it doesn't stop there, now that the beam is sent, reflected and received (which seems to be simulated believably in DCS as the razbam F15E seems to have sidelobe tracking, clutter and interference effects to name a few), the signal processing for an AESA with individual beam steering would still be the most difficult task in my opinion. Of course, it would be crazy to assume that the whole signal processing flow would need to be implemented in DCS but you'd at least need an idea of what the AN/APG-81 engineers did with the sent beams, the modulation and processing algorithms for different radar modes, else you may break the whole radar implementation. It seems like an insurmountable task almost.

Though this is just my two cents after pondering on it for a couple of minutes, I am sure that some people at ED know far more about the intricacies of simulating radars than I do given their previous work, however, without any actual publicly available data of the behavior of that radar, I suspect they will try to make up the radar data by reading various sources and trying to imagine "believable" behavior and then fit it on a "simple" AESA radar model. How will they implement the intricacies such as individual antenna steering and all the radar modes that use different modulation schemes and signal processing without any real data? I've got no idea.

Sorry for the long message but as an electrical engineer in ic design, after I saw you and other people brought up the point of the f35 having an AESA radar, it made me wonder of how such a complex system could be simulated. At first I thought it would be straightforward, but after thinking about it some more, you fall down a rabbit hole that seems impossible to get out of. I'm not a radar engineer nor do I do a whole lot of complex signal processing so the only thing I could do is wish ED good luck and move on (while remaining suspicious).

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NytHawk

NytHawk

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, British_Dragon_14 said:

My God! What's the range on this Radar? At least 80 miles I see! Crazy!

Information is quite limited on these radars, however several studies have estimated the AN/APG-77 (The F22s radar, and predecessor to the F35s AN/APG-81) to be able to lock targets with an RCS of 1m2 at ranges exceeding well over 100 nautical miles. Obviously you should be skeptical to these claims, however over the past 15 or so years, radar technology has evolved so much, that it almost appears alien to our current mechanically scanned arrays.

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Sn8ke

Sn8ke

Posted
Posted

APG-65

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TempestRiser

TempestRiser

Posted
Posted

The almost real-time refresh rate is quite easy to recreate... even some mods have managed to do such a thing. But I'm curious about some other perks of an AESA radar.. can it be notched? how does it filter the ground clutter if ground clutter is even a thing on AESA radar anymore... I've seen a video that says the F-35 radar can even count the number of axles on a tank chassis, and its size and then determine its model (T-72? T-55? etc) will it be reproduced in DCS somehow? 

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NytHawk

NytHawk

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, TempestRiser said:

The almost real-time refresh rate is quite easy to recreate... even some mods have managed to do such a thing. 

Sure, you could make a massively simplified AESA model by just massively increasing the scan rate of an MSA.
However AESAs like what we see in the AN/APG-81 do more than just have a very quick scan rate, it will send beams of varying operating frequency, PRF and power in many different directions depending on what the pilot is trying to achieve, and what the information fusion software deems necessary. Eg. you have a few TRMs continually illuminating a target with a lower power output to decrease interception probability, while another few beams are being slaved to MADL or DAS tracks at a different frequency/power, while the rest of the array is purely dedicated for searching.
 

5 hours ago, TempestRiser said:

But I'm curious about some other perks of an AESA radar.. can it be notched? how does it filter the ground clutter if ground clutter is even a thing on AESA radar anymore...

The AN/APG-81 does utilize the doppler effect to assist tracking airborne targets, so technically you can "notch" the radar, however i am almost certain there are sophisticated algorithms which will be able to differentiate a target flying with some height over terrain from the ground clutter, just because of the sheer resolution of the AN/APG-81.

Edited by NytHawk
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Muchocracker

Muchocracker

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

9 hours ago, TempestRiser said:

The almost real-time refresh rate is quite easy to recreate... even some mods have managed to do such a thing. But I'm curious about some other perks of an AESA radar.. can it be notched? how does it filter the ground clutter if ground clutter is even a thing on AESA radar anymore...

It's still very much an issue with AESA's, no radar is immune to main lobe clutter. But being a phased array it's afforded some advanced processing algorithms that you can't get with mechnical types. Space Time Adaptive Processing as i understand through the limited reading i've done on it significantly reduces the minimum detectable velocity around the main lobe clutter. (makes the notch window extremely tight)
 

5 hours ago, NytHawk said:

Sure, you could make a massively simplified AESA model by just massively increasing the scan rate of an MSA.

Can't really just do that either, By scanning at very high rates you cut your dwell times significantly. That reduces the amount of pulses on target, and reduces integration gains. It would be a huge step back in the radar simulation in doing so. 

Edited by Muchocracker
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