Rongor Posted January 17 Posted January 17 (edited) page 308 claims the SPI would be placed on a hooked symbol This is not the case and it would annoyingly affect a current SPI if it was. Edited January 20 by Rongor 1
Yurgon Posted January 17 Posted January 17 18 minutes ago, Rongor said: This is not the case and it would annoyingly affect a current SPI if it was. Agreed, partly. In the marked sentence, it should be named "Hookship symbol" instead of "SPI symbol", or rather: "Hookship or SPI symbol". If the TAD is set as SPI Generator ("TAD" is shown in the lower left corner of the HUD, which otherwise defaults to STPT), hooking TAD objects will make them SPI. There's no way to make the TAD SPI Generator without it having anything hooked, and unhooking a TAD object will also un-SPI the TAD and revert the SPI Generator to STPT (if the TAD was SPI Generator). When TAD is set as SPI Generator, hooking a TAD object will not just hook it, but will also set it as SPI. To put it yet another way, one TAD object can be hooked without it being the SPI, but when the TAD is SPI, then the hooked TAD object will also be the SPI.
Rongor Posted January 17 Author Posted January 17 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Yurgon said: Agreed, partly. In the marked sentence, it should be named "Hookship symbol" instead of "SPI symbol", or rather: "Hookship or SPI symbol". If the TAD is set as SPI Generator ("TAD" is shown in the lower left corner of the HUD, which otherwise defaults to STPT), hooking TAD objects will make them SPI. There's no way to make the TAD SPI Generator without it having anything hooked, and unhooking a TAD object will also un-SPI the TAD and revert the SPI Generator to STPT (if the TAD was SPI Generator). When TAD is set as SPI Generator, hooking a TAD object will not just hook it, but will also set it as SPI. To put it yet another way, one TAD object can be hooked without it being the SPI, but when the TAD is SPI, then the hooked TAD object will also be the SPI. Not on my end. Even with TAD as SOI, hooking any object won't make it SPI. The reason for this is hooking being performed by DMS up short. Only DMS up long would set the SPI at that currently hooked object. The green part is correct though. Edited January 18 by Rongor
Yurgon Posted January 18 Posted January 18 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rongor said: Not on my end. Even with TAD as SOI, hooking any object won't make it SPI. Read carefully. I never said it did. I said, once the TAD is set as SPI Generator, hooking a TAD object will make that object SPI. I'd suggest to, in this order... put the TGP into into AG Slave all to SPI make TAD SOI; hook a TAD object make the TAD SPI observe the TGP slewing to the hooked TAD object; observe the "wedding cake" SPI symbol hook another TAD object Would you expect the TGP to slew over to the newly hooked TAD object in step 6 and the "wedding cake" to move to that same symbol, even though the "Make SPI" HOTAS command wasn't issued again? Edited January 18 by Yurgon Changed response because I misread one "SOI" for "SPI"
Rongor Posted January 18 Author Posted January 18 (edited) 6 hours ago, Yurgon said: Read carefully. I never said it did. I said, once the TAD is set as SPI Generator, hooking a TAD object will make that object SPI. I'd suggest to, in this order... put the TGP into into AG Slave all to SPI make TAD SOI; hook a TAD object make the TAD SPI observe the TGP slewing to the hooked TAD object; observe the "wedding cake" SPI symbol hook another TAD object Would you expect the TGP to slew over to the newly hooked TAD object in step 6 and the "wedding cake" to move to that same symbol, even though the "Make SPI" HOTAS command wasn't issued again? Exactly. You are focusing on a situation in which the current SPI has been designated by a hooked TAD object already. Which the manual also seems to expect: It's actually claiming "Hook Mode (TAG: OWN, BULL, or CURS), rotary OSB 18. This OSB function is only displayed when you have hooked a TAD symbol with the cursor", which is worded problematically, as you really don't have to have a hooked TAD symbol for the Hook mode to display on OSB18, you only need to move the TAD cursor over any TAD object, regardless hooked or not. SPI'ing is neither a requirement for hooking nor is the manual addressing the SPI status at this point. The problem isn't the manual mentioning how the SPI will move from one hooked object to the next if it has been designated on an initial hooked object. The issue is the manual providing this info at a point where the reader expects to learn what happens when an object gets hooked. The optional prior SPI'ing is left out in this explanation, while actually being a precondition for the claim the manual is making. So either the "SPI is moved over the hooked object" should be dropped from the text entirely, or it should be added further down as an optional use case for when the pilot has designated the current SPI by any hooked object. Designating a SPI by the TAD isn't required to hook anything. Only precondition for hooking is setting TAD as SOI. The manual doesn't mention this requirement. Instead it claims hooking would place the SPI over the hooked object. Which is not the case. So it shouldn't be mentioned this way in the first introductory paragraph as if it was. Edited January 18 by Rongor
Yurgon Posted January 18 Posted January 18 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rongor said: You are focusing on a situation in which the current SPI has been designated by a hooked TAD object already I don't see how we disagree on anything here. Where the manual mentions the SPI, it is lacking the precondition of making the TAD SPI Generator in the first place. However, if the TAD was already set as SPI Generator at this stage, both the Hookship symbol and the SPI symbol would be updated when another TAD object is hooked. So the manual isn't entirely wrong, it's just inaccurate by omission right now and fails to cover a) the use case of moving the TAD cursor over a TAD object without hooking and b) the use case of the TAD not generating the SPI. So how about this? Quote Hook Mode (TAG: OWN, BULL, or CURS), rotary OSB 18. This OSB function is only displayed when the cursor hovers above a TAD symbol, or when you have hooked a TAD symbol with the cursor. TAD symbols can include the SPI, TGP diamond, waypoint/steerpoint, flight members, EPLRS transmitters, or bullseye. When a symbol is hooked, the Hookship symbol is placed over it and a dashed, yellow line leads from the Hookship symbol to the rotary selection. If the TAD is set to generate the SPI, the hooked symbol will also show the SPI symbol. For comparison, the original: Quote Hook Mode (TAG: OWN, BULL, or CURS), rotary OSB 18. This OSB function is only displayed when you have hooked a TAD symbol with the cursor. TAD symbols can include the SPI, TGP diamond, waypoint/steerpoint, or bullseye. When a symbol is hooked, the SPI symbol is placed over it and a dashed, yellow line leads from the SPI symbol to the rotary selection. Edited January 18 by Yurgon
Rongor Posted January 20 Author Posted January 20 (edited) On 1/18/2025 at 2:28 PM, Yurgon said: Hook Mode (TAG: OWN, BULL, or CURS), rotary OSB 18. This OSB function is only displayed when the cursor hovers above a TAD symbol, or when you have hooked a TAD symbol with the cursor. TAD symbols can include the SPI, TGP diamond, waypoint/steerpoint, flight members, EPLRS transmitters, or bullseye. When a symbol is hooked, the Hookship symbol is placed over it and a dashed, yellow line leads from the Hookship symbol to the rotary selection. If the TAD is set to generate the SPI, the hooked symbol will also show the SPI symbol. Much better. Lending your suggestions, how about this: Quote Hook Mode (TAG: OWN, BULL, or CURS), rotary OSB 18. This OSB function is only displayed when the cursor hovers above a TAD symbol which can be hooked, or when you already have hooked a TAD symbol. Hooking allows you to readout bearings and ranges between symbols and cursor locations on the TAD and also can provide visual cues on the HUD (see Fig. 283+284). It also enables you to slave your SPI onto TAD symbols, so you can use their locations to slave other sensors on them. TAD symbols can include the SPI, wingmen's broadcasted SPI, TGP diamond, waypoint/steerpoint, flight members, EPLRS transmitters, or bullseye. A TAD symbol is hooked with the cursor and DMS FWD SHORT. When a symbol is hooked, the Hookship symbol is placed over it and a dashed, yellow line leads from the Hookship symbol to the rotary selection. Designating the TAD as SPI by DMS FWD LONG while a symbol is hooked, will place the SPI symbol over the hooked symbol. Hooking another TAD symbol by hovering the cursor over it and pressing DMS FWD SHORT will drop the hook from the current symbol and move it to the new one. In case the SPI had been designated on the TAD, the SPI will move to that new hook as well. Hooking is cancelled by DMS AFT SHORT. In case the SPI had been designated on the TAD, the SPI will then return to the current steerpoint. Of course this version is longer, Though I think it could be worth it, as it pretty much contains everything especially a new player might need to understand the whole concept at once. Edited January 20 by Rongor 1
Yurgon Posted January 20 Posted January 20 1 hour ago, Rongor said: Lending your suggestions, how about this: Excellent, sounds really good! Except that "DMS" should be "TMS" This would give us (with a few more minor changes): Quote Hook Mode (TAG: OWN, BULL, or CURS), rotary OSB 18. This OSB function is only displayed when the cursor hovers above a TAD symbol that can be hooked, or when a TAD symbol is already hooked. Hooking allows you to read bearings and ranges between symbols and cursor locations on the TAD and also can provide visual cues on the HUD (see chapter HookShip HUD Symbols). Hooking TAD symbols is performed with the TMS Forward Short HOTAS command (Hook) with the TAD as SOI. TAD symbols can include the SPI, SADL members' broadcasted SPI, TGP diamond, waypoints, SADL members, EPLRS transmitters, bullseye and others. When a TAD symbol is hooked, the Hookship symbol is placed over it and a dashed, yellow line leads from the Hookship symbol to the rotary selection. Designating the TAD as SPI Generator with the TMS Forward Long HOTAS command (Make SPI) while a symbol is hooked will place the SPI symbol over the hooked symbol. Hooking another TAD symbol by hovering the cursor over it and pressing the TMS Forward Short HOTAS command will drop the hook from the current symbol and move it to the new one. In case the SPI had been designated on the TAD, the SPI will move to that new hook as well. Hooking is cancelled by the TMS Aft Short HOTAS command (Un-hook). In case the SPI had been designated on the TAD, the SPI will revert to the current steerpoint. What do you think? And: if I'm not mistaken, this chapter is identical for the legacy A-10C and the new A-10C II modules, and the above text should be applicable to both modules, right?
Rongor Posted January 21 Author Posted January 21 (edited) On 1/20/2025 at 11:47 PM, Yurgon said: Excellent, sounds really good! Except that "DMS" should be "TMS" of course it's TMS On 1/20/2025 at 11:47 PM, Yurgon said: What do you think? And: if I'm not mistaken, this chapter is identical for the legacy A-10C and the new A-10C II modules, and the above text should be applicable to both modules, right? yeah, looking good now. I guess its the same for the A-10C II. I do fly it as well, though currently I am doing some campaigns which only run on the non-II version so I couldn't test. There's some oddity still with the BULL/CURS option. If you select this one, the TAD will conveniently show the bulls bearing/range of the cursor, still the HUD symbology won't show the Bullseye (nor the cursor) as hook. In fact you can then still hook and unhook any TAD symbol as usual, which will affect the HUD symbology as usual. Only this won't be reflected on the TAD. So the TAD will neither show you which TAD symbol is currently hooked (or if there's no hook) and continue (as expected) to display the bulls/cursor bearing and range. In the other hand, the BULL/CURS option only shows bearing/range after any symbol has been hooked. Its unclear to me if 1. the ability to still "secretly" hook any TAD symbol to have the HUD hookship symbol guide you is realistic in this state, 2. this shouldn't happen (and is in fact a bug) or 3. if it should be hooked on the bulls or cursor instead by default, placing the HUD hooksymbol on one of these 2 as well... Edited January 21 by Rongor
Yurgon Posted January 22 Posted January 22 21 hours ago, Rongor said: There's some oddity still with the BULL/CURS option. If you select this one, the TAD will conveniently show the bulls bearing/range of the cursor, still the HUD symbology won't show the Bullseye (nor the cursor) as hook. In fact you can then still hook and unhook any TAD symbol as usual, which will affect the HUD symbology as usual. Only this won't be reflected on the TAD. So the TAD will neither show you which TAD symbol is currently hooked (or if there's no hook) and continue (as expected) to display the bulls/cursor bearing and range. In the other hand, the BULL/CURS option only shows bearing/range after any symbol has been hooked. Its unclear to me if 1. the ability to still "secretly" hook any TAD symbol to have the HUD hookship symbol guide you is realistic in this state, 2. this shouldn't happen (and is in fact a bug) or 3. if it should be hooked on the bulls or cursor instead by default, placing the HUD hooksymbol on one of these 2 as well... Wow, that's a great question! It makes sense to me the way you describe it, but then the Hookship symbol is missing and pilots get no feedback what kind of TAD hook their HUD is referring to. On the other hand, selecting BULL/CURS (or vice versa) should not change the current hookship, since rotating these options would otherwise wreak havoc on pilots' SA. I assume option 1 (hooking TAD objects with no visible Hookship symbol) is correct, but I don't know for sure. @ASAP do you have any insight here?
ASAP Posted January 24 Posted January 24 On 1/21/2025 at 8:24 AM, Rongor said: There's some oddity still with the BULL/CURS option. If you select this one, the TAD will conveniently show the bulls bearing/range of the cursor, still the HUD symbology won't show the Bullseye (nor the cursor) as hook. In fact you can then still hook and unhook any TAD symbol as usual, which will affect the HUD symbology as usual. Only this won't be reflected on the TAD. So the TAD will neither show you which TAD symbol is currently hooked (or if there's no hook) and continue (as expected) to display the bulls/cursor bearing and range. In the other hand, the BULL/CURS option only shows bearing/range after any symbol has been hooked. Its unclear to me if 1. the ability to still "secretly" hook any TAD symbol to have the HUD hookship symbol guide you is realistic in this state, 2. this shouldn't happen (and is in fact a bug) or 3. if it should be hooked on the bulls or cursor instead by default, placing the HUD hooksymbol on one of these 2 as well... Selecting BULL/CURS shouldn't impact what you have hooked at all. You should still be able to hook any object and your HUD should still point you to it. When you select BULL/CURS you will get a yellow dashed line form the bullseye to your cursor so you can slew around and plot out where something is if you are told for instance that a threat is active BULLSEYE 025/69. You can drag the cursor over to and drop a mark point, make mark SPI (or hook it and make TAD SPI and slave all). Hook and the BULL/CURS option are independent of each other... or at least should be. I haven't played around with it a whole lot, I'm usually either OWN/HOOK or HOOK/CURS On 1/18/2025 at 1:34 AM, Rongor said: only displayed when you have hooked a TAD symbol with the cursor", which is worded problematically, as you really don't have to have a hooked TAD symbol for the Hook mode to display on OSB18, you only need to move the TAD cursor over any TAD object, regardless hooked or not. Just to clarify, If you do not have anything hooked and you move your cursor over a TAD object it is "Soft Hooked" It has all the full functionality as if you slewed over it and hit TMS forward. Hitting TMS forward just "hard hooks" the object and you can slew off of it without it dropping the hook. 1
Yurgon Posted January 24 Posted January 24 20 hours ago, ASAP said: Selecting BULL/CURS shouldn't impact what you have hooked at all. You should still be able to hook any object and your HUD should still point you to it. Awesome, thanks for the clarification! I've taken the above recommendation and created an internal wishlist item to update the A-10C and A-10C II manuals accordingly. This certainly isn't a high priority item, so it might take a while or it might get rejected; time will tell.
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