Fitzcarraldo Posted February 6 Posted February 6 A little bit of exaggeration in the topic, but i do indeed wonder how to "safely" use the GBU-16 from the inner wing stations. Both in DCS and in reality... The wing station GBU-16 add a lot of firepower to the little aircraft, but the loadout seems rather impractical to me... Can you effectively trim the F-5 to fly safely and reliably with the high asymmetric loading after dropping only a single one? Dropping GBU-16 in pairs seems overkill in DCS since you will most likely only have a single laser spot both bombs will home in on. How do you get the maximum bang for your buck when lugging around two times 1000 pounds of LGBs? Get good at trimming? Simply drop in pairs? Use outer wing station counter-weights (mk82) for balance? Does a full external belly tank help with stability? Any tips on how to get two different laser spots on two close targets when flying without human AFACs? Thanks!
Fitzcarraldo Posted February 7 Author Posted February 7 Answer to myself: Good footwork and a lot of rudder trim! 1
Bucic Posted February 7 Posted February 7 9 hours ago, Fitzcarraldo said: Answer to myself: Good footwork and a lot of rudder trim! Cold you post a track? F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
Solution Fitzcarraldo Posted February 7 Author Solution Posted February 7 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bucic said: Cold you post a track? My tracks tend to be very unreliable, but i can talk you through my procedure. First of all, i now manage to fly "safely", but i wouldn't dare landing or even doing anything more than 30° bank angle. My procedure/setup: 2*Sidewinder (wingtip), 2*GBU-16 (inner wing), (outer underwing stations empty), Big droptank (belly station), ~70% internal fuel before dropping first bomb When flying don't drain the external belly tank (i feel the weight helps a bit and after you dropped both bombs you can quickly transfer all the fuel to your internal tanks). After dropping the first bomb immediately put in aileron trim as needed (and you'll need a lot) and rudder trim to 90-100%. Keep airspeed under 400 (drag) and over 300. You should be able to get the aircraft to fly straight without much further input. Now keep an eye on airspeed and watch your sideslip indicator. Changes to speed, AOA, bank angle will upset the aircraft a bit, but you can counter that with rudder. Keep bank angle below 30 and make smooth inputs. *** Next time i want to try draining the internal fuel asymmetrically. Do you know how i would do that? One Booster pump off and crossfeed on? ps: I pity those who think FBW aircraft are cool. pps: I had flaps on auto, but i think it might be worth experimenting with one of the other settings to minimize changes in configuration from auto flap system... Edited February 7 by Fitzcarraldo 3
nairb121 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 18 minutes ago, Fitzcarraldo said: Next time i want to try draining the internal fuel asymmetrically. Do you know how i would do that? One Booster pump off and crossfeed on? There are not actually left/right internal tanks - there are no wing tanks, and the 3 fuselage tanks are in-line. Forward tank feeds the left engine; center and aft tanks feed the right engine. That said, draining the forward tank first can give you a little bit more AOA for those BFM engagements (as ours is incorrectly low at the moment)... procedure is as you described, right pump off and crossfeed on. Just keep a close eye on the fuel gauge if you don't want a double flameout. 2 1
Fitzcarraldo Posted February 7 Author Posted February 7 2 minutes ago, nairb121 said: There are not actually left/right internal tanks - there are no wing tanks, and the 3 fuselage tanks are in-line. Forward tank feeds the left engine; center and aft tanks feed the right engine. That said, draining the forward tank first can give you a little bit more AOA for those BFM engagements (as ours is incorrectly low at the moment)... procedure is as you described, right pump off and crossfeed on. Just keep a close eye on the fuel gauge if you don't want a double flameout. Ok. That makes sense. Thanks! I got mislead by the left/right labeling for the tanks... 1
nairb121 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 4 minutes ago, Fitzcarraldo said: Ok. That makes sense. Thanks! I got mislead by the left/right labeling for the tanks... Yeah, it is a bit confusing. They're labeled by the engine they feed rather than their position. The layout looks like this: The odd shape and placement contribute to the different capacities of the left/right fuel systems. 1 1
MAXsenna Posted February 7 Posted February 7 40 minutes ago, nairb121 said: Yeah, it is a bit confusing. They're labeled by the engine they feed rather than their position. Aaah! Thanks! This makes sense to me now. Thanks!
Bucic Posted February 7 Posted February 7 2 hours ago, Fitzcarraldo said: My tracks tend to be very unreliable, but i can talk you through my procedure. First of all, i now manage to fly "safely", but i wouldn't dare landing or even doing anything more than 30° bank angle. My procedure/setup: 2*Sidewinder (wingtip), 2*GBU-16 (inner wing), (outer underwing stations empty), Big droptank (belly station), ~70% internal fuel before dropping first bomb When flying don't drain the external belly tank (i feel the weight helps a bit and after you dropped both bombs you can quickly transfer all the fuel to your internal tanks). After dropping the first bomb immediately put in aileron trim as needed (and you'll need a lot) and rudder trim to 90-100%. Keep airspeed under 400 (drag) and over 300. You should be able to get the aircraft to fly straight without much further input. Now keep an eye on airspeed and watch your sideslip indicator. Changes to speed, AOA, bank angle will upset the aircraft a bit, but you can counter that with rudder. Keep bank angle below 30 and make smooth inputs. *** Next time i want to try draining the internal fuel asymmetrically. Do you know how i would do that? One Booster pump off and crossfeed on? ps: I pity those who think FBW aircraft are cool. pps: I had flaps on auto, but i think it might be worth experimenting with one of the other settings to minimize changes in configuration from auto flap system... Ad ps: Amen! Turning F-5E into an F-35 by draining the front tank first is so much fun! Ad pps: The real flight manual is pretty clear on the very specific scenarios you might want to deviate from AUTO. You might read up on that. Hint: It's easy to confuse descriptions of flap operations for different F-5E variants. 1 F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
twistking Posted February 7 Posted February 7 37 minutes ago, Bucic said: Ad ps: Amen! Turning F-5E into an F-35 by draining the front tank first is so much fun! Is this actually useful or really just "fun"? I would guess that super high AOA would bleed airspeed like crazy... My improved* wishlist after a decade with DCS *now with 17% more wishes compared to the original
Bucic Posted February 7 Posted February 7 1 hour ago, twistking said: Is this actually useful or really just "fun"? I would guess that super high AOA would bleed airspeed like crazy... It was just for fun. At one point I could let go off the stick and maintain over 15 deg AoA. 2 F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
nairb121 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 2 hours ago, twistking said: Is this actually useful or really just "fun"? I would guess that super high AOA would bleed airspeed like crazy... In high-level BFM, every degree counts... and at our current AOA limit (with guns loaded and balanced fuel), we can't even reach maximum lift, so our ITR and min radius are limited. Documentation suggests we should be able to reach roughly 28 (true) degrees AOA guns loaded... right now we're can't get past 21-22 without first lightening the nose of fuel or ammo, which can still only achieve about 26° with both empty. (Note that the in-cockpit AOA indicator does not show true degrees, but arbitrary units, typical of the time) 2 2
nairb121 Posted February 7 Posted February 7 Back to the original topic - the following passage is from the -1 manual concerning handling characteristics with asymmetrical wing stores: On 2/6/2025 at 9:36 AM, Fitzcarraldo said: The wing station GBU-16 add a lot of firepower to the little aircraft, but the loadout seems rather impractical to me... It's interesting to note that the -1 actually only allows GBU-16 on the centerline pylon, not on the wings - presumably ED made the (reasonable) assumption that, since the inboard pylons were approved for Mk-83, the GBU-16 would also be usable. (Unless there's an additional source that I'm not aware of, which is very possible). I wonder if the issues you're observing are the reason the USAF -1 manual didn't allow them? 3
Fitzcarraldo Posted February 9 Author Posted February 9 On 2/7/2025 at 11:08 PM, nairb121 said: Back to the original topic - the following passage is from the -1 manual concerning handling characteristics with asymmetrical wing stores: It's interesting to note that the -1 actually only allows GBU-16 on the centerline pylon, not on the wings - presumably ED made the (reasonable) assumption that, since the inboard pylons were approved for Mk-83, the GBU-16 would also be usable. (Unless there's an additional source that I'm not aware of, which is very possible). I wonder if the issues you're observing are the reason the USAF -1 manual didn't allow them? That's very plausible. Dual GBU-16 single drop is fun and interesting in the sim, but if someone's life depended on it, i'd always go for a different loadout. Enough options with GBU-10 and 12...
Bucic Posted February 9 Posted February 9 According to DCS manual the F-5E only has the GBU-12 in the arsenal. Other variants aren't even mentioned. F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
razo+r Posted February 9 Posted February 9 4 minutes ago, Bucic said: According to DCS manual the F-5E only has the GBU-12 in the arsenal. Other variants aren't even mentioned. That's because the other variants have been added in the December update last year, without updating the manual of course. 2
Bucic Posted February 9 Posted February 9 53 minutes ago, razo+r said: That's because the other variants have been added in the December update last year, without updating the manual of course. Ah. Any technical or employment differences worth noting? 1 F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
Fitzcarraldo Posted February 9 Author Posted February 9 2 hours ago, Bucic said: Ah. Any technical or employment differences worth noting? Well, if you drop them one by one, they'll flip the damn plane. 2
Bucic Posted February 10 Posted February 10 OK, questions from my side are going to make more sense after I actually read a GBU-any employment procedure in the F-5E... for the first time in my life 1 F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
Coenraad Posted May 13 Posted May 13 On 2/9/2025 at 9:04 PM, razo+r said: That's because the other variants have been added in the December update last year, without updating the manual of course. Were more weapons added? Or just the GBU's?
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