Not participating

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

In the past, I have enthusiastically participated in skin contests and, as some may know, have been lucky enough to be in the winner's circle. 

I will not be participating in the F-5E contest as a protest to the current situation of being unable to use the Model Viewer for it's intended purpose.

While I understand ED's need to protect their IP by encrypting, I think having a competition while the issue is non-resolved is a bit of a slap to the skinners. 

I've made several posts in the forum regarding the issue and tried my best to be diplomatic. 9L's statement about refreshing liveries in game or ME gave me slight hope but he padded it by saying that they "didn't have programmer time available". I was willing to wait and see but with a contest being issued it seems that applying any programming time to a solution is at the very bottom of priorities.

Those currently making F-5 skins, (while impressive and, especially so, due to the greatly added difficulty of not having the MV to work with) are exacerbating the problem by prodding ED to come up with a solution. 9L and BN will say "see, if they can do it, why can't you?" Participation in the contest will just reinforce that mindset.

[NineLine]

14 minutes ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

9L and BN will say "see, if they can do it, why can't you?"

While I understand your frustration with the newest constraints, please do not put words in our mouths. We have given every bit of feedback through at us to management on this, but as of right now, this is the current process of creating skins today. Will it change? I hope so. Can it change? I hope so. We have requested everything people have asked for, such as removing the protection on the models. That is all we have right now. 

And those that want to take part in this contest as it is, should not be made to feel bad either. So your opinion is your's, everyone can share it but do not speak for anyone else, or make people feel bad if they do not agree with you.

[MarbleFalcon]

Welllll.......  Ive already posted one in competition thread but seems like it got deleted. Again, even tho ive already made one livery and im going to make more just because im obsessed with F-5; im also not going to participate competition for now as a form of protest. I dont have any problem with encryption of 3d models. I understand that ED wants to protect their intellectual property and Im cool with that. Problem of me and i guess every people that are protesting this is simply not having access 3d model on Modelviewer & not having access to default liveries and then having expectations to create miracles without those. We couldve have a new access protocol on Modelviewer with this new encryption system. There are endless amount of solution to solve this problems. But from what i see; ED just doesnt want to solve our problems. We're making liveries just because our compassion to the game and livery making, and we're doing this for free (well competition also offering little prizes but, thats cherry on top) So locking default textures and access to MV and giving us just simple paint kits and a basic lua file is nothing but being disrespectful to this community. 

[NineLine]

11 minutes ago, MarbleFalcon said:

We couldve have a new access protocol on Modelviewer with this new encryption system.

This is something we requested, but the nature of the Model Viewer doesn't make this a valid solution. So once again, its not a matter of not wanting to solve this, its finding the right solution and having the time to make it happen. 

As a side note, are you also the same person who asked me on Discord if you could password-protect your submission file so no one could steal your work? The answer is of course yes like I told you there, we are happy to have you protect the hard work you have done if you have concerns about someone using it. 

Thanks.

[MarbleFalcon]

5 minutes ago, NineLine said:

This is something we requested, but the nature of the Model Viewer doesn't make this a valid solution. So once again, its not a matter of not wanting to solve this, its finding the right solution and having the time to make it happen. 

As a side note, are you also the same person who asked me on Discord if you could password-protect your submission file so no one could steal your work? The answer is of course yes like I told you there, we are happy to have you protect the hard work you have done if you have concerns about someone using it. 

Thanks.

Yep, I am the same guy. As i said before in my previous post, ive already made one, specifically Turkish Air Force 133rd Squadron livery. And seeing psd file requirement in newsletter was shocking for me cuz i was and still am ready to publish livery. But being able to encrypting file in submission is a good news. Im still optimistic about joining to competition but me and i guess other, more experienced livery creators that are protesting this really need to see a helping hand from ED about this situation. Otherwise as i said im still working on the liveries and i would love to share it as soon as possible :d Btw thanks for your support NineLine, i really appreciate it.

[Santus]

I am also not going to participate in the contest as a form of protest nor will I be making any liveries for any module that is not accessible via the simulator's model viewer.

[NineLine]

Just now, MarbleFalcon said:

Yep, I am the same guy. As i said before in my previous post, ive already made one, specifically Turkish Air Force 133rd Squadron livery. And seeing psd file requirement in newsletter was shocking for me cuz i was and still am ready to publish livery. But being able to encrypting file in submission is a good news. Im still optimistic about joining to competition but me and i guess other, more experienced livery creators that are protesting this really need to see a helping hand from ED about this situation. Otherwise as i said im still working on the liveries and i would love to share it as soon as possible :d Btw thanks for your support NineLine, i really appreciate it.

This competition will be over before we see a change added to DCS, all I can tell you is I have a report into the devs on what everyone wants to see. 

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

25 minutes ago, NineLine said:

And those that want to take part in this contest as it is, should not be made to feel bad either.

You have a point. Those who wish to participate, regardless of the hardships in doing so, I hope that they will produce some stellar skins. I will probably be in awe of the results and maybe even envious. I have many other projects which do allow the use of the MV and will focus on those. I just hope that the situation will have an eventual satisfactory remedy.

[ejectman]

dcs skin community is a total disaster, full of incomprehensible contests, cartoon colors, and other skin stealing called "refresh" liveries and fiction liveries.

[Doughguy]

Its a slap in the face of any user "with passion and support" supporting this game, in this case with liveries. Liveries that are in turn incorporated into the modules and sold as such...

I already deleted my userfiles. So did others and so will others.

Pushing a livery competition at a stage where no feasable solution is presented is quite premature... and shouldnt be surprising stirring up bad moods.. rightfully so.

Edited April 4 by Doughguy

[Night Owl]

As everyone who has previously made complex liveries will agree, making a high quality livery without access to the model viewer is practically unfeasible, since it would take much more time and effort and would necessarily end up with a worse result. 

While I can understand the need for filr encryption and that it may take a while to implement a decent solution, I cannot comprehend the decision to launch a livery competition at this state, despite the issue not having been resolved yet and despite the previous claims that a solution was been searched. 

Since I would anyways not have participated in this competition, the best thing I can do to support this valiant protest is to remove my liveries from the user files. 

This a few of us livery creators have done today, as a temporary measure while we wait for a satisfactory solution.

Players can of course continue to access said liveries through the discord link. 

I do hope that the strong community reaction today helps in showing ED management the importance of finding a solution. 

[theRealTrickFlare]

13 minutes ago, MarbleFalcon said:

Yep, I am the same guy. As i said before in my previous post, ive already made one, specifically Turkish Air Force 133rd Squadron livery. And seeing psd file requirement in newsletter was shocking for me cuz i was and still am ready to publish livery. But being able to encrypting file in submission is a good news. Im still optimistic about joining to competition but me and i guess other, more experienced livery creators that are protesting this really need to see a helping hand from ED about this situation. Otherwise as i said im still working on the liveries and i would love to share it as soon as possible :d Btw thanks for your support NineLine, i really appreciate it.

HI, renown does not = experience, I've been making skins for years just not published.
I also do not intend to hold the community hostage because I have to work harder (marginally, I only realized the model viewer existed a year ago) to get a livery done. I don't make them to sell games, build a portfolio or seek praise. I make them because it's what I want to fly in, and who am I to hold back something from people like me without the skill/time to do it themselves.

This competition is a great opportunity to get some often ignored countries or more niche time periods into the base module for everyone to enjoy. ED points and a free module are just icing on that cake.

That's just my take, and I didn't appreciate your implication that those taking part were somehow, lesser than yourself.

I hope you submit, Good luck.

[Doughguy]

4 minutes ago, theRealTrickFlare said:

HI, renown does not = experience, I've been making skins for years just not published.
I also do not intend to hold the community hostage because I have to work harder (marginally, I only realized the model viewer existed a year ago) to get a livery done. I don't make them to sell games, build a portfolio or seek praise. I make them because it's what I want to fly in, and who am I to hold back something from people like me without the skill/time to do it themselves.

This competition is a great opportunity to get some often ignored countries or more niche time periods into the base module for everyone to enjoy. ED points and a free module are just icing on that cake.

That's just my take, and I didn't appreciate your implication that those taking part were somehow, lesser than yourself.

I hope you submit, Good luck.

Its all valid, but see it this way, if you could make better liveries faster, would you say no?

If you want to spend weeks aligning a pattern, fine. It´s your time. I find texturing rather soothing. But "wasting" my time makes my p^ss boil.
I take no money, no can i. I make liveries because i like it and its fun, but i will DEFINATELY NOT waste my time switching back and forth between DCS and PS to check if ive aligned something right... also yea.. RAM is quite "limited" running DCS and PS at the same time...

We were told that programmer time is rare, and implementing the encryption into the MV would either render its functions unusable, or simply would take too much effort (roughly).

Ok, but functions will we have using the "New" method ? None. Neither can we generate *lua files, check each of the channels by one, etc. etc.
The community had to BEG! for a lua file because otherwise you couldnt do anything with the released template...

It only dawned ED at that moment that they somehow did not see the problems arising by their decision to encrypt their work.....

The Output on the F5 is already low. Everyone ive spoken to tried it or made one livery and will never touch that thing with a 10 foot pole...
Some parts are broken into 4 seperate sheets.. other supposedly straigh edges are 0,5 deg off...
And you want to allign things by starting and exiting DCS? Wow. Well if thats your thing...

For the devs its easy. They paint directly onto the 3d model using substance.

But the community is supposed to come up with some superb liveries with hands tied behind their back...

Thats some twisted humor right there..

[Awacs_bandog]

1 hour ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

In the past, I have enthusiastically participated in skin contests and, as some may know, have been lucky enough to be in the winner's circle. 

I will not be participating in the F-5E contest as a protest to the current situation of being unable to use the Model Viewer for it's intended purpose.

While I understand ED's need to protect their IP by encrypting, I think having a competition while the issue is non-resolved is a bit of a slap to the skinners. 

I've made several posts in the forum regarding the issue and tried my best to be diplomatic. 9L's statement about refreshing liveries in game or ME gave me slight hope but he padded it by saying that they "didn't have programmer time available". I was willing to wait and see but with a contest being issued it seems that applying any programming time to a solution is at the very bottom of priorities.

Those currently making F-5 skins, (while impressive and, especially so, due to the greatly added difficulty of not having the MV to work with) are exacerbating the problem by prodding ED to come up with a solution. 9L and BN will say "see, if they can do it, why can't you?" Participation in the contest will just reinforce that mindset.

Absolutely in the same boat. Its been real but the lack of help we've been getting from ED (And I'm being extremely generous with that phrasing) has more or less pushed me out of this hobby entirely. 

Been real but I think this is where im done.

[MarbleFalcon]

4 minutes ago, theRealTrickFlare said:

HI, renown does not = experience, I've been making skins for years just not published.
I also do not intend to hold the community hostage because I have to work harder (marginally, I only realized the model viewer existed a year ago) to get a livery done. I don't make them to sell games, build a portfolio or seek praise. I make them because it's what I want to fly in, and who am I to hold back something from people like me without the skill/time to do it themselves.

This competition is a great opportunity to get some often ignored countries or more niche time periods into the base module for everyone to enjoy. ED points and a free module are just icing on that cake.

That's just my take, and I didn't appreciate your implication that those taking part were somehow, lesser than yourself.

I hope you submit, Good luck.

 "i guess other, more experienced livery creators that are protesting this" this part wasnt implying something like "me and people who are protesting is better than everyone". Im sorry if you understand in that way. I just didnt want to equate myself with other people. After all, for example Santus, JG1_Vonrd and probably you are (no offense, just havent noticed your username on user files etc. before) much better at this than me. I still consider myself a newbie and still have a lot to learn. Also, even tho your submission to contest is bad move during this situation from my perspective, gotta say i really like your work. Thank you for your good wishes and again, sorry for missunderstanding :d

[thepod]

i was going to comment, but I dont see the point. there is no right of freedom of expression in a privately owned forum, but removing posts, restricting discussion and gaslighting appears to be a common occurrence.

Yes, nobody is happy all the time, yes there is im sure a never-ending list of gripes and complaints, but the reason people get worked up is simple - the whole of the ED media and community engagement machine seems to be an excercise in going against every single established corporate media communications practice. Sophistry, semantics, obfuscation and stonewalling.

The simple fact that the communty's best skinners are refusing to enter speaks volumes but falls on deaf ears. We all appreciate that a community manager is a borderline thankless task and probably rather demoralising at times. but  the system is broken and trundles along, not because of how it works, but in spite of it. 

Its simply astonishing.   

people keep asking the same question because they never get answered. Im pretty sure Sniper Elite V doesnt have this level of fiery debate between t he software firm and  the players - but Sniper Elite doesnt trade on, and openly rely on its players to create essential free content. By actively encouraging not just facilitating a vast library of user generated content to flesh out the game, ED tacitly accept that players and creators are intertwined in the process and their views should be accepted more freely. Toodle pip, Cheers.

 

[Awacs_bandog]

36 minutes ago, NineLine said:

This competition will be over before we see a change added to DCS, all I can tell you is I have a report into the devs on what everyone wants to see. 

Then you guys shouldn't be doing a competition at all until this is resolved. Simple as that. 


Right now, it looks like ED Wants us to do the leg work, then we should be at least given a modicum of support on our end to actually be able to do it. 

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

5 minutes ago, Awacs_bandog said:

Been real but I think this is where im done.

Sorry to hear that Bud but I completely understand. 

[theRealTrickFlare]

1 minute ago, MarbleFalcon said:

 "i guess other, more experienced livery creators that are protesting this" this part wasnt implying something like "me and people who are protesting is better than everyone". Im sorry if you understand in that way. I just didn't want to equate myself with other people. After all, for example Santus, JG1_Vonrd and probably you are (no offense, just havent noticed your username on user files etc. before) much better at this than me. I still consider myself a newbie and still have a lot to learn. Also, even tho your submission to contest is bad move during this situation from my perspective, gotta say i really like your work. Thank you for your good wishes and again, sorry for missunderstanding :d

Thank you for clarifying, and my guy, I use Gimp and had to convert everything to PSD because I am the most amateur of amateurs hahaha I don't even know what a vector is..
I just have a hobby/passion that I like to share. 
To be honest I have not been able to participate in past competitions like the Apache because I could not open the livery template files..

Unpopular take, but I could care less about 'a bad move' since no one mad about it has anything to do with my enjoyment of DCS. I think if anything it could be a move that encourages others to take part, I left my PSDs and Zip file unencrypted for anyone to use.

Cheers,
 

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

1 minute ago, Awacs_bandog said:

Then you guys shouldn't be doing a competition at all until this is resolved. Simple as that. 

Exactly!

[Doughguy]

6 minutes ago, theRealTrickFlare said:

Thank you for clarifying, and my guy, I use Gimp and had to convert everything to PSD because I am the most amateur of amateurs hahaha I don't even know what a vector is..
I just have a hobby/passion that I like to share. 
To be honest I have not been able to participate in past competitions like the Apache because I could not open the livery template files..

Unpopular take, but I could care less about 'a bad move' since no one mad about it has anything to do with my enjoyment of DCS. I think if anything it could be a move that encourages others to take part, I left my PSDs and Zip file unencrypted for anyone to use.

Cheers,
 

Look, basically thats how like any of the livery artists think.

We enjoy making liveries.

Some of the very good artists were even hired and their stuff incorporated into modules.

The very same guys now say "uhm... bad idea"...

Well.... what do you think will happen ? 

Most likely they will cease to do liveries and publish them.

Edited April 4 by Doughguy

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, thepod said:

i was going to comment, but I dont see the point. there is no right of freedom of expression in a privately owned forum, but removing posts, restricting discussion and gaslighting appears to be a common occurrence.

 

Yet you posted and it is still here, I only removed posts from the submission thread as that thread is only for submissions. It's been the same for every contest. So I get it, you are frustrated, but please don't make things up.

1 hour ago, Awacs_bandog said:

Then you guys shouldn't be doing a competition at all until this is resolved. Simple as that. 


Right now, it looks like ED Wants us to do the leg work, then we should be at least given a modicum of support on our end to actually be able to do it. 

We are not asking anyone to do anything they do not want to do. The competition is optional. We are working on a solution, it will take some time, and that's it. 

[Kraken3-2]

Ive made a few pretty decent liveries without using model viewer, it's harder, takes more time, it's frustrating. However if we don't have a choice, we don't have a choice. We were lucky we got model viewer in the first place, not only this, ED is a company that needs to protect it's assets. If it means we can't use modelviewer because it poses a risk, so be it. There would be nothing worse right now then for legal troubles to plague the DCS community even more. Its already been stated model viewer is something they would like to see returned, but holding ED "hostage" by dividing the community like this isn't going to just hurt them, it will hurt all of us too. 2025 is supposed to be a great year and only time will tell, I for one am very excited for it. If you want to participate, do it, if you don't, don't. The Razbam situation has already caused too much drama we don't need this too guys. We all have a common goal, to see DCS be the best it can be.

[thepod]

Not at all making up anything so do not call me a liar in public thank you, so please show some respect. I do not insult you or any other individiual. You (ED) DO remove posts, lock threads and close down discussions, always when it gets challenging and ED are in a corner,  or caught out being disingenuos. Its understandable, its human nature to be defensive, but it does not engender trust or cooperation and all of the most successful companies are ones that do.

 

[thepod]

3 minutes ago, Kraken3-2 said:

Ive made a few pretty decent liveries without using model viewer, it's harder, takes more time, it's frustrating. However if we don't have a choice, we don't have a choice. We were lucky we got model viewer in the first place, not only this, ED is a company that needs to protect it's assets. If it means we can't use modelviewer because it poses a risk, so be it. There would be nothing worse right now then for legal troubles to plague the DCS community even more. Its already been stated model viewer is something they would like to see returned, but holding ED "hostage" by dividing the community like this isn't going to just hurt them, it will hurt all of us too. 2025 is supposed to be a great year and only time will tell, I for one am very excited for it. If you want to participate, do it, if you don't, don't. The Razbam situation has already caused too much drama we don't need this too guys. We all have a common goal, to see DCS be the best it can be.

it has nothing to do with asset protection. ED doesnt sell its 3d models and even stolen 3d models can only be used in very limited ways, adn none of those take revenue away away from DCS. Players who want to play DCS MUST have a module, so have to pay. If they want the 3d asset, they can get that online cheaply. If they want the model then they wont bother buying a game module. The end product is that ED spends time making a 3D model, puts it into the game and its stolen. but that is not stolen revenue, because the model was never a saleable item. the game module that is the saleable item continues to be sold. if there are 50,000 people who buy the F18, how many times do you think it is stolen, by people that would have ONLY bought the F18 module to access t he 3d model? its basically zero. ED may try to claim that the time spent building a model and losing it is a waste and it is, but the investment in the model was used to add comemrcia lvalue to the module....so there is no loss. you can dress it up as a loss to try and justify financial decisions but thats just not true.  

 

On a side topic, if the claims by RB that ED dont pay them were false, ED would have sued them imemdiatley. They didnt. so a company that is so keen to protect its assests and reputation is happy to be defamed ? No. so its highly likley that ED did not pay razbam at all. the point or agument is the reason ED is attmeping to use to justify it is that RB broke the terms of the contract, adn RB say they didnt. thats actually really easy to sort out.

But this whole encryption farce is nothing to do with finances, thats for sure