lifeliberty Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Frost1e found the correct explanation for what was happening. I understand what your saying and I tested your case but I found no bug, the first 2 ER's tracked the 1st bandit fine so I unlocked and locked the 2nd bandit, then fired 2 ER's and they both tracked the 2nd bandit and killed him. What I think is happening with you is that your lock is getting dropped due to the size of the F-5, this is hard to notice as you will still have an EOS lock so it appears your locking with radar when your actually locking with EOS, check the symbols down the left side of the hud. If theres only 2 then your radar has lost lock and switched to EOS. UPDATED WITH NEW STEPS To reproduce - fly su27 against TWO F5E's - launch 3 R27ER's against target #1 - cancel the radar lock - now check these 3 missiles (F6), they are at 1G , they've gone ballistic. at this point there are now 3 unguided R27's in the air - now acquire target #2 - *** BUG 1 *** the R27's already in flight will refuse to guide to target #2 - *** BUG 2 ***, now fire 2 more R27's at target #2. follow the missiles for a while, watch them go ballistic A LONG WAY FROM THE TARGET, like 5 kilometers, even though you've maintained the radar lock all this time. BUG 2 is the game breaker for me. It seems whenever there are more than 3 or 4 R27's in flight, the R27 becomes completely ineffective, regardless of your distance or radar lock situation. I suspect this is the cause of some complaints regarding the effectiveness of this missile. I have tried different ways to "reset" the SARH state, like shutting off the radar, changing avionics modes, using the override switch, etc., to no use. When there are already R27's in flight, they cause newly fired missiles to go ballistic. I have loved flying the SU27. But this bug truly hurts the capabilities of this awesome aircraft and my enjoyment of this awesome game. I'm putting the game back on the shelf for now. :( P.S. this was tested using Flaming Cliffs 1.12b Edited August 4, 2009 by lifeliberty corrected instructions on how to reproduce the bug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeliberty Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 for Kuky: now let those 2 R27's miss, fire 2 more and watch what happens. this models the situation when you've missed a couple of R27 shots, the missiles are still in the air flying unguided, now if you shoot more R27's it is completely ineffective. I've experienced this on campaign missions and verified it with simple tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 alright, will try it tonight when I get home... No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Interesting ... Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Its not interesting at all since it is a feature R-27, like all SARH missiles, should go balistic after he "canceled" lock. To reproduce - fly su27 against a F5E - launch 3 R27ER's - cancel the radar lock - now check these 3 missiles (F6), they are at 1G , they've gone ballistic. at this point there are now 3 unguided R27's in the air - now reacquire the target - *** BUG 1 *** the R27's already in flight will stay ballistic - *** BUG 2 ***, now fire 2 more R27's. follow the missiles for a while, watch them go ballistic A LONG WAY FROM THE TARGET, like 5 kilometers, even though you've maintained the radar lock all this time. Pay attention before rushing to any conclusions. ;) I am not so sure real SARH missiles have reaquisition capability either, however I would guess it could only work if the missile didnt stray off course too much. Edited July 30, 2009 by Pilotasso [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 alright... just tested and can say this: Fired 1 ER from RMAX, then second about 3 seconds later... target was at 5000m 50km away... I broke lock and reacquired lock onto same target about 5 seconds later... fired 2 more ER's and went for a dive to make sure radar lock stays solid and doesn't break.... switched to externals to watch missiles I fired and guess what... all 4x ER's I fired were tracking to target... in fact the first ER hit it and other 3 were still tracking... so, as it seems your missiles were not tracking most likely due to aspect of the target which very possibly was in dive or beam and deploying counter measures. 1 No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfire Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Is this a case of missle slider not being at 100% ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boberro Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 alright... just tested and can say this: I broke lock and reacquired lock onto same target about 5 seconds later [...]all 4x ER's I fired were tracking to target... in fact the first ER hit it and other 3 were still tracking[...] oOoOoOo When I did test yesterday I fired ER, broke lock for few seconds (less than 5) and relocked. 1st ER flew away, second too. Only third hit (this I kept on lock all time). Another time when I relocked it flew to target. But it is more often accident than normal situation. Weird.:music_whistling: Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniffer Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 oOoOoOo Another time when I relocked it flew to target. But it is more often accident than normal situation. I think it depends on target/enemy behaviour... Using countermeasures or goin' defensive or... good luck ;) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Wasn´t that a stone age known thing? Try this (cant remember surely if that was working but...) .. Shoot 2 of them with "good" seperation to estimated intercept-point of human bandit break lock right after the first is launched ....and re-aquire LOCK late..... and make sure you hold it from there Ask him afterwards..what he was aware of....and what not ...hehe (delay in warnings!) Same works if you break LOCK of an 120 1-2seconds before it goes pitbull. What happens is, it will still bang the bandit with super-LO seakerhead assistance, but once the search algorythm in the seaker is "restarted" (by doing so) it will give the bandit also delayed inbound RWR warning....few seconds only, but enough to reduce his reaction parameters dramatically. Hope this reflections of given facts will not be taken as exploit-hints ! It´s how it is, made unintentionally...made purposly after analytic tests or training studies ...whatsoever... Edited July 30, 2009 by A.S [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 @ bumfire... missile slider on my PC is set to 50% and so was on this occasion. @ boberro... missile can reacquire if it's tracking path after you've relocked is not deviated much from it's initial path (while missile was in free flight) and I think it also depends on target aspect. Possibly if missile stops tracking only because radar broke lock and not because of chaff, then it can reacquire, but I assume if it went for chaff it won't be able to... but again I'm not so certain, just my guess. No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumfire Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 @ bumfire... missile slider on my PC is set to 50% and so was on this occasion. @ boberro... missile can reacquire if it's tracking path after you've relocked is not deviated much from it's initial path (while missile was in free flight) and I think it also depends on target aspect. Possibly if missile stops tracking only because radar broke lock and not because of chaff, then it can reacquire, but I assume if it went for chaff it won't be able to... but again I'm not so certain, just my guess. I just mentioned missile slider due to the well known fact that it would cause problems if it wasnt set to 100% in previous versions of LO, i.e missiles not being as effective as they should of been but, your tests would seem to absolve the slider as the culprit since the slider was set at 50% and the missile hit and the others continued to track, so god knows what the problem is with the OP's version ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeliberty Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) I apologize for the confusion. My tests were done against THREE F5E's. I had thought the number was not relevant but that turns out not to be the case. Please try the attached mission. See if you can reproduce my observations. case A: - fire ONE R27ER at fighter 1, cancel lock - fire second missile at fighter 2, keep lock - notice the first missile fails to guide in the terminal phase, second one succeeds case B: - fire TWO R27ER at fighter 1, cancel lock - fire ANY NUMBER of additional missiles at fighter 2. - all missiles fail to guide. my theory is this. each missile "remembers" which target they were initially fired at, at which time it occupied one of two "guidance slots". as long as the first two missiles are in flight, these slots remain occupied, and subsequent R27ER's fired against OTHER TARGETS will all fail.r27bug.zip Edited July 31, 2009 by lifeliberty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 ermm... of course in case A your first missile will fail to guide as you are not guiding it any more once you break lock... remember R-27's are not active radar guided missiles but SARH and need your radar lock to guide them... so if you break lock they should not track any more. The only way they can track themselves is if you fire them in HOJ mode (homing on jammer). Anyway, I think your missile do not guide because those F-5's are very tiny and in LockOn they are very easy to evade missiles... Mirage 2000 is about the same. No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeliberty Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 ^ they will guide if I quickly reacquire the original target, but they won't guide to a different target, even when they are practically on top of each other. the real problem I'm having is that I am no longer able to attack target B, if the two missiles are still in flight, and they were originally fired against target A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilotasso Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Your saying you want to re-use SARH missiles onto a different target? o.O Thats new, basicaly you cant and you shouldnt be able to do it. [sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic] My PC specs below:Case: Corsair 400C PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T) RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4 GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Dumb question (to lazy to look it up myself): ...how many missiles (SARH) were supposed being launched simulataniously in the intend of the coding itself? In other words, how many targets can the russians Jets tracks same time? (Maybe from that perspective it helps) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 You can launch more then 1 but only 1 target can be tracked at the time... SARH implies the missile has to be guided by the aircraft radar in STT lock meaning only target can be tracked and hence targeted. Back to this "bug", it really isn't a bug as you see it, more like game bug where SARH missiles are easily spoofed by chaff etc even at shorter range... and again some aircraft more some less... the F-5 in game is one of those that are harder to hit probably because of their very small radar signature (it is a very small aircraft) No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 You know there is an even funnier bug. You can lock stt on one target but have the missile track another ;). (while still keeping lock on the first guy. YES you can Aim7 on two guys at once that are not jamming! - Bad bug!) At this point I have only found it with Aim7, but I rarely fly the ru birds so I would probably not see it for simple probability There are some more funny bugs, like if yoiu fly a flanker, and you fight another flanker, there is a bug which lets you lock him with radar BVR without giving him a warning. S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.S Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 bugs everywhere ... :P [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) What are you on about Yoda... fighting in Flanker against another Flanker not giving warning... never had something like that happen in 2-3 years of my flying LockOn... maybe your game is bugged and regular game info dropped due to all the extra coding you do? Edited August 1, 2009 by Kuky No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostie Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I apologize for the confusion. My tests were done against THREE F5E's. I had thought the number was not relevant but that turns out not to be the case. Please try the attached mission. See if you can reproduce my observations. case A: - fire ONE R27ER at fighter 1, cancel lock - fire second missile at fighter 2, keep lock - notice the first missile fails to guide in the terminal phase, second one succeeds case B: - fire TWO R27ER at fighter 1, cancel lock - fire ANY NUMBER of additional missiles at fighter 2. - all missiles fail to guide. my theory is this. each missile "remembers" which target they were initially fired at, at which time it occupied one of two "guidance slots". as long as the first two missiles are in flight, these slots remain occupied, and subsequent R27ER's fired against OTHER TARGETS will all fail. I understand what your saying and I tested your case but I found no bug, the first 2 ER's tracked the 1st bandit fine so I unlocked and locked the 2nd bandit, then fired 2 ER's and they both tracked the 2nd bandit and killed him. What I think is happening with you is that your lock is getting dropped due to the size of the F-5, this is hard to notice as you will still have an EOS lock so it appears your locking with radar when your actually locking with EOS, check the symbols down the left side of the hud. If theres only 2 then your radar has lost lock and switched to EOS. "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 51st PVO "BISONS" Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedTiger Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 ermm... of course in case A your first missile will fail to guide as you are not guiding it any more once you break lock... remember R-27's are not active radar guided missiles but SARH and need your radar lock to guide them... so if you break lock they should not track any more. The only way they can track themselves is if you fire them in HOJ mode (homing on jammer). Anyway, I think your missile do not guide because those F-5's are very tiny and in LockOn they are very easy to evade missiles... Mirage 2000 is about the same. The R-27 in LOMAC is capable of reacquiring a target if you lose lock IF you re-lock fairly quickly. And by "fairly" I mean it can be a couple of seconds. It sounds like lifeliberty knows this and is thinking that if that is possible, it is feasible that you should be able to lock, launch, re-lock a different target and still have your first missile track. This is a pretty logical conclusion and, IMO, not unreasonable. It makes sense. It sounds like he discovered something in the way the missiles are coded that causes them to have limited room for "remembering" different targets. I'm not sure if the real radar and missile are capable of the reacquiring ability (any experts here know this?), but I would bet that the things lifeliberty is doing were probably not intended or designed for by ED. I've always thought of the reacquiring thing with R-27s as a nice feature that allows you some leeway if you get a little too excited with your crank to gimbals and accidentally lose lock, not a way to pincushion one bandit with 3 Rs or REs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boberro Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 It sounds like lifeliberty knows this and is thinking that if that is possible, it is feasible that you should be able to lock, launch, re-lock a different target and still have your first missile track. So I have to sum it up. I fire ER, break lock, lock another target and 1st missile is tracking when I am engaging second hostile? Honestly I don't know where and how are you finding these bugs. Most of this is new for me, though I am rather old player. Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuky Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 losing lock on first missile and re-locking onto different bandit making your first missile start tracking the second bandit should work IF the two bandits are near by. I am pretty sure re-lock and re-tracking can only happen if the inbound missile's trajectory is not too much off of where it should be to continue tracking. No longer active in DCS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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