Rudel_chw Posted July 12 Posted July 12 Regarding the recent fatal crash of an Air India B-787, here is a super interesting analysis of this report ... and I'm left with the impression that this accident was caused by human error For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600 - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia RTX2080 - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar Mobile: iPad Pro 12.9" of 256 GB
Aapje Posted July 12 Posted July 12 10 hours ago, Rudel_chw said: and I'm left with the impression that this accident was caused by human error This is almost always the case, whether it is human error by the pilots, maintenance or designers.
Dragon1-1 Posted July 12 Posted July 12 It would seem like the engine switches were inadventarily operated by one of the aircrew. Now to figure out why would anyone mess with those mid-flight.
Rudel_chw Posted July 12 Author Posted July 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said: Now to figure out why would anyone mess with those mid-flight. mid flight it would have been easily recoverable, on this case the switches were actuated right after lift off. Edited July 12 by Rudel_chw 1 For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600 - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia RTX2080 - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar Mobile: iPad Pro 12.9" of 256 GB
Dragon1-1 Posted July 12 Posted July 12 (edited) In any case, this is not something you should touch while in the air. As one expert put it, there's nothing here that is likely. No matter which Boeing the pilot in question was trained on, there's zero reason to even have your hand anywhere near this area once the plane is off the ground. Edited July 12 by Dragon1-1
TheBiggerBass Posted July 12 Posted July 12 Following the latest news it seems the pilot (or copilot) switched off fuel supply for all engines. I wonder how that's possible without the other pilot recognizing that immedeately. Afaik these switches are safety guarded switches which need to lifted first before they can be switched plus audio warnings in cockpit. System: HP Z2 Tower, Win11 24H2, i9-14900K, 64GB RAM, 8TB SSD (M2) + 18TB HDD (Sata), GeForce RTX4070 TI Super 16GB VRAM, Samsung Odyssey 57" curved monitor (main screen) + BenQ 32" UW3270 (secondary screen), VKB Gunfighter Ultimate MK4 + S-TECS Throttle DCS: All terrains, allmost all modules, most user flyable mods - CA, WWII Assets
Rudel_chw Posted July 13 Author Posted July 13 40 minutes ago, TheBiggerBass said: Following the latest news it seems the pilot (or copilot) switched off fuel supply for all engines. I wonder how that's possible without the other pilot recognizing that immedeately. He did recognize it and the switches were turned ON again 10 seconds after being switched Off. But the engines need more time to fully spool up, the aircraft crashed 10 seconds after the switches were moved to ON again. 40 minutes ago, TheBiggerBass said: Afaik these switches are safety guarded switches which need to lifted first before they can be switched plus audio warnings in cockpit. No, they don't have guards on the B-787 (watch the video) ... and anyway a guard would be no deterrent if you actually want to operate the switches, it takes just a second longer. For work: iMac mid-2010 of 27" - Core i7 870 - 6 GB DDR3 1333 MHz - ATI HD5670 - SSD 256 GB - HDD 2 TB - macOS High Sierra For Gaming: 34" Monitor - Ryzen 3600 - 32 GB DDR4 2400 - nVidia RTX2080 - SSD 1.25 TB - HDD 10 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Cougar Mobile: iPad Pro 12.9" of 256 GB
TheBiggerBass Posted July 13 Posted July 13 (edited) I guess if a pilot really wants to crash a plane he'll find a way, even with copilot and navigator in the cockpit. There's just to many critical issues which could possibly fail. May be better psychological screening of flight crews can help to prevent this. Edited July 13 by TheBiggerBass 1 System: HP Z2 Tower, Win11 24H2, i9-14900K, 64GB RAM, 8TB SSD (M2) + 18TB HDD (Sata), GeForce RTX4070 TI Super 16GB VRAM, Samsung Odyssey 57" curved monitor (main screen) + BenQ 32" UW3270 (secondary screen), VKB Gunfighter Ultimate MK4 + S-TECS Throttle DCS: All terrains, allmost all modules, most user flyable mods - CA, WWII Assets
Dragon1-1 Posted July 13 Posted July 13 12 hours ago, Rudel_chw said: No, they don't have guards on the B-787 (watch the video) ... and anyway a guard would be no deterrent if you actually want to operate the switches, it takes just a second longer. They didn't have guards, but they were protected against being bumped accidently by protrusions on the sides, and they're also supposed to be toggle-locking type, though supposedly this wasn't always the case. Either way, they require a pretty deliberate action to flip. 12 hours ago, TheBiggerBass said: I guess if a pilot really wants to crash a plane he'll find a way, even with copilot and navigator in the cockpit. Right now this is probably the only explanation that doesn't assume a truly improbable level of stupidity. There's no reason for the pilot to have his hands anywhere near that area at that phase of flight unless he's actually trying to crash the plane. Sadly, murder-suicides by a pilot are not completely unknown. It'll be interesting to see what else the investigation turns up. 1
MAXsenna Posted July 13 Posted July 13 6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said: Sadly, murder-suicides by a pilot are not completely unknown. It'll be interesting to see what else the investigation turns up. Yeah, I know this is reddit, while if the video is anything to go by. This seems deliberate. https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/s/F9uNho3LDt
Dragon1-1 Posted July 13 Posted July 13 A real aviation switch of this size would be pretty stiff, to the point where it'd be odd if they were both actuated at exactly the same time, unless toggle lock was disabled. Of course, the condition of the aircraft would also play part, but I highly doubt they could be jostled or bumped by accident. I doubt any Dreamliner had been flying long enough to actually wear those switches out.
MAXsenna Posted July 13 Posted July 13 3 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said: A real aviation switch of this size would be pretty stiff, to the point where it'd be odd if they were both actuated at exactly the same time, unless toggle lock was disabled. Of course, the condition of the aircraft would also play part, but I highly doubt they could be jostled or bumped by accident. I doubt any Dreamliner had been flying long enough to actually wear those switches out. The video is specifically made to show that it cannot happen. They really have to pull the switches out to flip them down. What's odd, is that it seems I cannot be done in a second,unless you practice.
Dragon1-1 Posted July 13 Posted July 13 3 minutes ago, MAXsenna said: They really have to pull the switches out to flip them down. If you read the report, this wasn't necessarily the case. Several Dreamliners were found to be flying with the toggle locking feature disabled. Boeing issued an advisory directive to fix it, but Air India didn't implement it, since compliance with it isn't mandatory. Also, as those switches are toggled before every flight, and exist in every Boeing airliner, any pilot who flew one for any length of time had, indeed, practiced. I flip the toggle locking switch on my Winwing PTO with barely more effort than a regular toggle, it's smaller and lighter than those, but someone with strong hands could probably have pulled them both out at once. It would be awkward, but if you're flipping them several times a day, you might get into habit of doing it like this. 1
IvanK Posted July 13 Posted July 13 The Lift to lock toggles not being fitted was in fact in relation to B737 and was raised in 2018. Given thats 7 years ago I am sure if a 787 was delivered without them someone would have snagged it. Without the lift to lock collar the feel of the switches operation would be entirely different. Muscle memory would have instantly picked this up ... and a subsequent tech log entry would have ensued. 1
MAXsenna Posted July 13 Posted July 13 47 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said: Boeing issued an advisory directive to fix it, but Air India didn't implement it, since compliance with it isn't mandatory. That's true. Forgot about that.
Dragon1-1 Posted July 14 Posted July 14 (edited) 23 hours ago, IvanK said: The Lift to lock toggles not being fitted was in fact in relation to B737 and was raised in 2018. Given thats 7 years ago I am sure if a 787 was delivered without them someone would have snagged it. Without the lift to lock collar the feel of the switches operation would be entirely different. Muscle memory would have instantly picked this up ... and a subsequent tech log entry would have ensued. My mistake, it was found on 737s. The directive recommended checking all Boeings, though, including 787s. However, since it was optional, Air India has explicitly been said to have not complied with it. Meaning that, assuming the pilots didn't treat the lack of toggle locks as normal from the start, complains about it wouldn't necessarily have gone anywhere. And yes, such a minor thing not getting fixed for 7 years is perfectly plausible. Either way, since that part was pulled from the wreckage, they will undoubtedly check this. This is being investigated right now, but we need to remember that even without the locking toggle, those switches are pretty hefty. It'd be hard for them to get flipped down all by themselves. Nobody wants to bring up accusations of pilot suicide, but switches don't simply flip themselves. Even with a worn out switch missing a locking toggle, it'd take a very powerful jolt to actually flip. Edited July 14 by Dragon1-1 1
Aapje Posted July 15 Posted July 15 It doesn't feel like a suicide to me. In the famous case the pilot locked the other one out of the cockpit and downed the plane. But here it would require the nerve to do it with the other pilot present, and then doing it at the right moment, so there is no time to restart the engines, but also no time to abort. You would think that it would be hard to hold things together and execute a plan like that with the stress of having someone present and having to get the timing right.
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