Radar expected target range

[IvanK]

Reading the various available MIG29 references I went searching for the "Expected Target range" radar setting as in FC3 MIG29. I couldn't find any references to it. Does it exist in the real Mig29 ? If so where is the switch that sets it ?

Or is it a function of the range that the TDC cursour is set to?

[AeriaGloria]

Yes, it is set by the wheel on the throttle 

[IvanK]

Ah ok thanks ... and do you get a value readout in the HUD like we do in the FC3 MIG29 ? In other words how do you know what Expected Target range you have set ?

And another question. Is it this setting of expected target range that sets the Antenna bar setting <20Km 16.5deg elev coverage and >20km 13.5deg elevation coverage ?

Edited Friday at 03:42 AM by IvanK

[AeriaGloria]

8 hours ago, IvanK said:

Ah ok thanks ... and do you get a value readout in the HUD like we do in the FC3 MIG29 ? In other words how do you know what Expected Target range you have set ?

And another question. Is it this setting of expected target range that sets the Antenna bar setting <20Km 16.5deg elev coverage and >20km 13.5deg elevation coverage ?

It is signified by a specific symbol on range bar, item 26 in this picture. Yes it does change that, but remember it changes much less and less drastically for manual radar control. Only GCI control really changes scan pattern vs range a lot. 
 

Fig 3.5 shows GCI intercept, left side is HUD right is IPV. It’s incorrect in showing heading tape while locked 

Edited Friday at 11:34 AM by AeriaGloria

[Ironhand]

27 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

It is signified by a specific symbol on range bar, item 26 in this picture. Yes it does change that, but remember it changes much less and less drastically for manual radar control. Only GCI control really changes scan pattern vs range a lot. 

Umm..isn’t it actually item 32 (manual range input) in the diagram? Isn’t the bar (#26) actually the range to target based on the radar return? 

[AeriaGloria]

3 hours ago, Ironhand said:

Umm..isn’t it actually item 32 (manual range input) in the diagram? Isn’t the bar (#26) actually the range to target based on the radar return? 

You would think but apparently the number (32) is just for navigation mode. 
 

Item 39 is STT range arrow, and item 43 is range from radar quasi scan. As you found item 26 is radar range that you set with the wheel or the GCI commanded range. This comes with some paragraphed that describe most of it 

“Range scale I with digitalization when working with SEI with the MO-ket

radar has the following range scales: 150, 100, 50, 25 and 10 (when

working with the OEPRIK only two scales 5 and 1 km).

The contour arrow 39 shows the current range and can move along the

range scale from 0 to the maximum value. At the ground guidance stage,

the arrow shows the current range transmitted via the control unit (Table

2.2). At the on-board guidance stage (ATTACK or homing mode), the arrow

shows the current range from the radar control system to the target.

The thin line segment 26, moving along the range scale, indicates the

current range measured by the radar in the Quazi scan mode in

conjunction with the OEPRNK. The crosshair with a gap in the middle 41 in

the center of the screens fixes the construction axis of the aircraft and

weapons.

Aircraft index 15 displays the aircraft position in space by roll. Two lines 19

(to the left and right of the aircraft index) mark the beginning (zero) of the

roll scale (Table 3.2).

To the right of the aircraft index, a movable pitch scale 25 is displayed with

three numbers located vertically,

along with artificial horizon line 22, intersecting the screen. The numbers of

positive pitch angle values are underlined by a segment of a solid line, and

negative ones by dashed lines. The pitch angle values are given by the

vertical and course information complex (Table 3.2).

Small ring 7 in deltaH coordinates and it shows the deviation of the current

trajectory from the specified flight trajectory of the aircraft. The pilot must

hold this ring in the center of the crosshair. The parameters deltaH and

delta course are calculated in the on-board computer according to the

specified values from the GCI command line(Table 2.2), and the current

values of height and course, measured on board using the IK-VK-80. The

large ring with point 14 at coordinates delta pitch and delta heading shows

the deviation of the current flight path from the specified one, calculated in

the on-board computer using data. During correct piloting, the pilot holds

the ring on the crosshairs (frames the crosshairs with the ring).Large ring without point 18 - mark of deviation of course and glide path

from the given trajectory of the aircraft. It is used at the landing stage of

the aircraft.

Rectangle 6, called the range strobe, is used to select a target and capture

it for automatic tracking by superimposing the rectangle on the selected

target. In the AVT. mode, the strobe is controlled by the on-board

computer. The strobe is controlled by angles and range in manual mode

from the KU-ZI key located on the RUS.

Dash marks 5 and 8 are marks of detected targets, which are displayed on

the screens in the REVIEW and SNP modes. A dash mark with a symbol

like PARACHUTE means "own" target, i.e. a target with an identification

mark. Rhombus 17 in coordinates 4 and 48 indicates the position of the

target in space, since it records the position of the equal-signal direction of

the antenna in the RNP mode (Table 3.3).

The thickened horizontal lines 40, 38 and 37 along the range scale show

the dimensions of the missile launch zone. Line 40 characterizes the

permitted maximum launch range for a non-maneuvering target (Dr 1), Line

38 characterizes the maximum permitted launch range (Dr 2) for a

maneuvering target, and line 37 marks the minimum permitted launch

range (Dmin).

The abbreviation 23 ОТВ is displayed on the screens when the ОТВОРОТ

command is issued, or when Dmin is larger then present range. In this case, ring 14 quickly

moves to the upper left or right corner of the indication field, indicating the

rational direction of the turn.

The abbreviation PR means LAUNCH ALLOWED, after this command the

pilot has the right to press the BC button. Arrow 36 at the beginning of the

range scale shows the direction of the target speed vector in the horizontal

plane. It lights up after the RLPK switches to the RNP mode. The direction

and module of the vector are determined by the RLPK data and calculated

in the BCEM. Section 34 of line in the lower part of the indicator shows the

position of the search zone in azimuth relative to the viewing zone.

Dashed lines 33 indicate the presence of weapons on all six suspensions.

Depending on the position of the EXTERNAL-INTERNAL toggle switchlocated near the throttle, either two internal (middle) or four external lines

are illuminated. The numbers 30 above the dashed lines are illuminated

after passing the built-in control in the RGS (numbers 1 and 2) or after

target acquisition by the TGS of missiles R-73 and R-60M (numbers 3, 4, 5

and 6). If the number is framed by a square 31, this means that there is an

emergency failure of the missile to leave the suspension. Letters 35 and 29

indicate the readiness of the course-gliding system to land.

The numbers 32 indicate the range to the landing point (landing airfield,

radio beacon) or the range of manual input of the control lever if the index

42 is displayed.

The upper part of the indicators displays flight and navigation information.

4 indicates the GCI received speed, and 3 indicates the current flight

speed of the fighter in kilometers per hour. Under the line of these

numbers, a movable benchmark 2 is displayed, which can occupy three

fixed positions under the middle of the line or to its edges. The middle

position indicates that the current flight speed does not change. With an

increase in speed (positive acceleration), the benchmark occupies the

extreme right position under the line, with a decrease in speed, the

extreme left position.

The movable scale 10 with three two-digit numbers and a fixed reference

point 9 indicates the current course based on information received from

the IK-VK-80. To determine the true course value, the numbers on the

scale must be multiplied by ten.

The number 12 indicates the set flight altitude, which comes via the GCI

command line, and the number 13 indicates the current flight altitude. The

current flight altitude can be measured by a barometric or radio altimeter.

When the altitude from the radio altimeter is indicated, the letter "P" is

displayed after the number.

To the left of the range scale, a set of one-time commands coming to the

SEI from the on-board digital computer and via the control switchgear line

is displayed. The abbreviation PPS or ZPS indicates the direction of attack

from the front or rear hemisphere of the target. The letters "PL" or "TП"

mean that the RLPK or OEPRNK is leading. The letter "B" (VERTICAL) is a

one-time command transmitted via the control GCI line, indicating the

need for an energetic maneuver in the vertical plane with a gain in altitude.The letters "A" and "r" (ATTACK and HILL, respectively) are issued from the

on-board digital computer after target acquisition for automatic tracking.

The display of the letter "A" indicates the completion of transition

processes in the RLPK and its readiness to begin an attack, or laser

emission. The letter “r” is displayed only when it is necessary to perform

an aircraft maneuver in the vertical plane (with a gain or loss of altitude).

The letter "C" (OWN) means that the “lock only negative IFF” switch is

removed (the OWN CAPTURE switch is in the OWN position) and the

"own" target has been captured. A one-time command "Φ" (FORSAH) is

sent via the GCI line to turn on the engine afterburner. The one-time

commands “!” and the letter "T" coming from the ground station via the

GCI line mean RETARGETING and END OF GUIDANCE, respectively. The

abbreviations AП and ПП signal the pilot about the presence of active and

(or) passive interference.

In the lower right corner of the HUD and IPV indicators, the alphanumeric

index 27 of the selected weapon type is displayed. In the same place, but

on the HUD, the number 42 framed by a square is displayed, which shows

the presence of NAR or gun ammunition in quarters from the full

ammunition (4,3,2,1,0). The number 28 on the IPV shows the number of

the line along which the antenna moves (1-4 or 1-6). In addition, only on

the IPV is line 16 displayed - the border of the screen field with a fixed

triangular horizon reference in the middle of the line; a vertical segment of

line 20, showing the position of the search zone relative to the viewing

zone in the vertical plane.

Of the entire volume of information indicated on the ILS and IPV screens,

only that information is displayed that is necessary for completing a

specific task being solved is displayed.

As an example, let us consider the features of operation at the stages of

ground guidance and homing (airborne-RLPK guidance) and the display of

information on the SEI-31 when selecting R-27RI missiles for combat use.

At the stage of ground guidance of the fighter to the GCI target (the so-

called instrument guidance), signals and one-time commands are

transmitted via radio line 3502, which are intended for controlling the

aircraft, the RLPK complex and weapons. Information intended for

controlling the aircraft at the ground guidance stage is shown on the ILS

and IPV indicators, shown in Fig. 3. Let us consider in more detail the set

of commands intended for controlling the RLPK. Note that the receptionand processing of transmitted signals and commands will be possible only

when the GUIDANCE toggle switch on the PSR-ZI console is turned on

and the IZL. EKV. OFF switch on the PUR-ZI is set to the EKV position.

After the fighter is brought into the zone from which it can make radar

contact with the target according to the GCI 3502-20 data, target

designation signals are transmitted to the antenna system of the radar

control system (B; Σ (Table 2.2)) and commands for remote activation of

the BRAS transmitter for emission and line-by-line movement of the

antenna. If the KRU operates in the LAZUR mode, then emission is

activated by a set of commands "100" ("60" or "36") and PPS when

intercepting a target from the forward hemisphere or commands "36" and

ZPS when intercepting a target from ZPS. In the first case, the VCHP

operating mode is automatically activated (if the switch on the PUR-ZI is in

the AVT position), and in the second case, the SCHP operating mode.

Thus, the radar control system begins to operate in the REVIEW mode,

the detected targets are displayed on the ILS and IPV screens (Fig. 3,5,6).

The range strobe is automatically set to the specified target if it does not

respond to the IFF system request. The pilot continues to fly the fighter

according to the commands of the vertical ring, aligning it with the

crosshair center.

After pressing the MRK ZAKVAT PZ button on the throttle, the RLPK

switches to the RNP mode. A large ring, missile launch zones appear on

the indicator screens (Fig. 3.5, c) and the R-27RI missile radar operability

check begins. Upon completion of the check, the numbers 1 and 2 are

displayed. The pilot, placing the ring on the crosshair, attacks the target

and continues approaching the target. When the current range is equal to

or less than Drmax! the PR (LAUNCH ALLOWED) command is displayed

and the pilot can press the BK button.

For other operating modes of the control system, the indication on the IDS

and IPV is similar to that discussed above”

 

It is from the MiG-29B technical manual. 

Edited Friday at 03:14 PM by AeriaGloria

[IvanK]

Thanks for the explanation AeriaGloria. 

This graphic from a poorly translated Russian MIG29 Weapon manual implies to me that the the determinant of the 16.5deg/13.5 deg elevation coverage is determined by the Cursour (TDC) position if <=20km or >20Km. .... again I presume this is due to numbers of bars being scanned.

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, IvanK said:

Thanks for the explanation AeriaGloria. 

This graphic from a poorly translated Russian MIG29 Weapon manual implies to me that the the determinant of the 16.5deg/13.5 deg elevation coverage is determined by the Cursour (TDC) position if <=20km or >20Km. .... again I presume this is due to numbers of bars being scanned.

Yeah just be aware this is for Lazur GCI guidance. For non GCI guidance the combat employment manual gives the single 11 degree elevation 50 degree wide scan number. 
 

You see different numbers all over the place, I suppose if I went through the list of software updates with a fine tooth comb I might find something about it. For example this is from a PowerPoint from a Ukrainian university, for instrument/GCI guidance and for non GCI guidance 

 

And here is what L-18 manual gives 

Edited yesterday at 07:51 AM by AeriaGloria

[Ironhand]

21 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

…The numbers 32 indicate the range to the landing point (landing airfield,

radio beacon) or the range of manual input of the control lever if the index

42 is displayed…

“42” looks to be a typo. It should read “43”. 32, in addition to being the navigation distance, is the manually entered range to the target. Why would a range/distance number be tied to cannon rounds remaining (42)? Also, if you look at the diagram, 43 is pointing at roughly 16 km on the range scale.

Edited yesterday at 12:26 PM by Ironhand

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, Ironhand said:

“42” looks to be a typo. It should read “43”. 32, in addition to being the navigation distance, is the manually entered range to the target. Why would a range/distance number be tied to cannon rounds remaining (42)? Also, if you look at the diagram, 43 is pointing at roughly 16 km on the range scale.

I think 32 is right, but yes that first instance of 42 seems to be a typo. The next instance correctly identifies it as either bad or cannon round indicator. Here is original 

We must remember though that whatever FC3 taught us about the HUD is wrong. It is really more like a watered down Su-27 HUD with MiG-29 symbols. 
 

In the L-18 manual and its description of the HUD, those central numbers are called only “distance to turning point of the route in navigation/landing mode”

Edited yesterday at 02:11 PM by AeriaGloria

[Ironhand]

3 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

I think 32 is right, but yes that first instance of 42 seems to be a typo. The next instance correctly identifies it as either bad or cannon round indicator. Here is original 

We must remember though that whatever FC3 taught us about the HUD is wrong. It is really more like a watered down Su-27 HUD with MiG-29 symbols. 
 

In the L-18 manual and its description of the HUD, those central numbers are called only “distance to turning point of the route in navigation/landing mode”

At this point I’m not sure if we’re agreeing on what #32 represents or not. From the both the diagram caption and text you’ve provided, it seems to be either distance to a navigation point or the manually entered target range depending on HUD mode. Do you agree?

I assume that both the FF HUD and HDD will have differences that we’ll have to unlearn. Won’t that be fun.

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Ironhand said:

At this point I’m not sure if we’re agreeing on what #32 represents or not. From the both the diagram caption and text you’ve provided, it seems to be either distance to a navigation point or the manually entered target range depending on HUD mode. Do you agree?

I assume that both the FF HUD and HDD will have differences that we’ll have to unlearn. Won’t that be fun.

It’s hard to say. It seems the long horizontal line on the range bar represents set range. I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up being just the horizontal line on the range bar, or if item 32 (waypoint range) also shows the range at the same time. 
 

But from images of the HUD I find illustrated in manuals or docs, and in videos, I do not see these numbers present during the search process. 
 

People are in for a big surprise. Like how the whole right border is only shown on HDD, namely the elevation/HUD elevation index and radar search elevation index. Or the HUD not showing target speed, alt, or even overlaying a symbol on target position (unless in gun mode and range, and only showing speed/alt with datalink). The freaking heading tape goes away when you lock someone! Guess they thought it was clutter to know where you’re pointed and it’s totally fine to look down while targeting someone! 
 

Also found an interesting image about landing mode the other day, it says the large circle only shows direction to airfield RSBN, only small circle shows actual flight path along PRMG beacon. 
 

IRST lock doesn’t show azimuth, we’ll have to figure it out from relation of missile max range and NEZ and movement of the IRST gimbal indicator. That is, once we get a valid range which may take as long as 8 seconds beyond laser range or never until we do kinematic range finding!

It never says radar mode, you just have to figure it out from the range scale on the HUD! It will only say PPS/ZPS with datalink, and that is more telling you target hemisphere. 
 

But hey! It’ll tell us bar being scanned atleast! On the HDD……

So much for overlaying a symbol on the target being a wide spread feature of all 4 th gen’s, even F-14 HUD shows you closure rate! 
 

I personally plan to take advantage of TWS mode to make up for not knowing target speed, that way it will automatically pick the target with highest speed/range, and I won’t accidentally lock someone who isn’t the greatest threat to me. 
 

I asked a MiG-29 pilot once about not having any symbol that overlays the target, and he just said “it takes great skill to make visual contact!” 
 

Also all symbology is only valid if level. For example, if you lock someone in FC3, and turn away from them with 90 degree bank, the gimbal indicator will be on bottom of HUD becuase that’s the true direction to target. But the real MiG-29, as you turn away, no matter the bank angle, the gimbal indicator will drift to the left of the HUD. Ironically, I think this will make cranking and reversing cranks easier in Fox 1 combat. But the same applies for missile circle. 

Edited yesterday at 06:09 PM by AeriaGloria

[Ironhand]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

…Also found an interesting image about landing mode the other day, it says the large circle only shows direction to airfield RSBN, only small circle shows actual flight path along PRMG beacon…

Yes, there will be a lot to unlearn and relearn. And knowing what is actually correct can be difficult to ascertain. On certain points, manuals can seem to contradict each other. There can even be contradictions within same manual. Most of them seem not to have been professionally written.

Anyway, I found the above about landing interesting because, if you take the info and diagrams provided in you post earlier yesterday along with the subsequent text you posted later that day, it would seem that the large circle and the small circle should work just as they do in the sim. It’ll be interesting to see what turns up.

 

[LetMePickThat]

27 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

On certain points, manuals can seem to contradict each other. There can even be contradictions within same manual. Most of them seem not to have been professionally written.

Diffusion of technical documentation in the Soviet Union and most Warsaw Pact nations was spotty, to say the least. A Czech pilot told me that when Czechoslovakia got its first MiG-23ML, the manuals that came with the planes were those of the earlier 23MF. Some systems were thus not documented properly, if at all, and it took month for the corrected manuals to be sent to the units. 

[IvanK]

I guess the engineers had a ball ... didn't consider the pilots trying to use this thing imo. For someone who grew up on the Cyrano II and APG65 this thing is a Frankenstein radar ...... Fascinating detail though. Be nice to see the Luftwaffe weapons manual GAF T.O. 1F-MIG29-34-1, written in good English if one is floating around 

Edited 21 hours ago by IvanK

[F-2]

3 hours ago, IvanK said:

I guess the engineers had a ball ... didn't consider the pilots trying to use this thing imo. For someone who grew up on the Cyrano II and APG65 this thing is a Frankenstein radar ...... Fascinating detail though. Be nice to see the Luftwaffe weapons manual GAF T.O. 1F-MIG29-34-1, written in good English if one is floating around 

That manual is on amazon

 N019 is a neat radar we are lucky to know so much about. SAPFIR documention is pretty hard to come by.

[IvanK]

The one on Amazon is the GAF T.O.  1F-MIG29-1 the basic aircraft manual not the -34-1 which is the weapon system manual.

Edited 14 hours ago by IvanK

[AeriaGloria]

Another thing I have no idea how will they model it, if selecting Fox 1 forces you’re radar on. Meaning switching SUV mode will only work with Fox 2 selected. 
 

Also who knows if they mode the SPO-15 only having 90 degree light up with 50 at close range, and at medium to long range a radar at 90 degrees only lights up 50 light. Or if PD fighters will be in Hawk category until close range 15-20 km. 
 

Also don’t know about altimeter, their pre order video shows altimeter as exact as FC3. But watch videos of the HUD and you will see baro alt only does 100s, and radar alt only does 10s. 
 

I was talking earlier about how the HUD basically shows symbology as if you are level, here is a video showing it. He locks a target and turns right with 90 degree bank. Does the gimbal indicator and missile circle move down where the target is? No, it drifts to the left of the HUD reflecting it hitting the 70 degree gimbal limit of the radar. I think Su-27 can do it like we have in FC3 where it shows true direction partly because its radar has 60 degree gimbal limits in every direction. 

There is also this description of the HUD in L-18 manual, but combines IPV/HDD and HUD. 
 

Shows IFF symbol though. But on an old software update. There was a late 80s software update, a software update I’m sure we will get as it has other features like KMOD and R-27ER support that have been promised. This software update changed the IFF “C” from the left to the top middle of the HUD. It also switched around the large and small circles for a few things which has lead to so many things disagreeing on what they are used for. 
 

I bet people on release will wonder why they can’t shoot at a target, and miss the IFF “C” in the middle!

Edited 4 hours ago by AeriaGloria