From 14900K to AMD 9950X3D Is Lack Luster

[The_Cokester]

I want to start this off by saying the 9950X3D has been a performance uplift in other games and general productivity but I was very disappointed to find out that DCS just cant take advantage of the new tech.

Before the upgrade I would be pinned at 90FPS with high settings using quad views. MSAA X4.

Now, with the same settings i cant get more that 40FPS. I have to use DLSS and knock the resolution in Pimax Play way down along with aggressive settings in quad views.

When gaming in DCS I use process lasso to put DCS on the CCD 0 for the V-Cache and that works well but one of the things I notice is none of the cores go above 4Ghz. I just feel like the 9950X3D is not being pushed at all and I am leaving alot of performance on the table.

Anyone got any ideas?

 

Computer Specs:

9950X3D

ASUS ROG Strix x870E Gaming Wifi

64GB of Corsair RAM 6000Mhz CL30

RTX 5090 FE

2TB SSD

OG Pimax Crystal

dcs.log

[Raisuli]

Well, cool.  You just saved me a bunch of coin because I've been noodling that exact migration, which would be somewhere around $1500 by the time I got the new MB.  

Can't complain about frame rate in DCS, apart from the normal 143 FPS to 9 FPS.  The Macro stutters are...irritating.

In the other SimsThatShallNotBeNamed I'm CPU limited and only getting 50-60 FPS.  My 5090 did basically nothing for those because I was also CPU limited on my old 2080Ti.

[Tomcat388th]

I have no idea if this will help or even applies to you. I remember a Youtube  vid byJay2cents he does computer reviews and such.  With the newer AMD X3D cpu's you needed to have windows 11 power plan set to Balanced.  If you have high performance it holds back the cpu..  Easy enough to try

J

 

[niru27]

1 hour ago, The_Cokester said:

Now, with the same settings i cant get more that 40FPS. I have to use DLSS and knock the resolution in Pimax Play way down along with aggressive settings in quad views.

dcs.log 96.06 kB · 1 download

If you had a stable 90fps, then why upgrade at all? Did you expect to magically get 900fps??

The 14900k being pretty powerful, you may not see an improvement with VR's framerate cap of 90. But no way in hell will there be a drop in fps.

There is some issue with your PC, plain and simple. DCS with my 9950x3D is silky smooth, except of course when the server itself lags, or Chinooks are near me. In fact I can use the non x3D core to do software encoding for recording in OBS (non VR), with no ill effects at all.

Let's start with some basic questions:

1. Did you perform a fresh installation of Windows on your new PC, or simple insert the old SSD and boot from it directly
2. Did you update the BIOS and chipset drivers?
3. Did you run any benchmarks after building the PC to check of defective components?
4. What is your DCS benchmarking methodology?
5. What power plan have you applied for DCS in Process Lasso, along with affinity?

[The_Cokester]

I upgraded because it was my third 14900K with the intel CPU’s killing themselves. I was just tired of worrying about it. Also not to mention the weird windows update failures, blue screens, and other instabilities. I had just had it with intel.

I did all the recommendations. 
 

fresh windows install

updated bios and latest chipset drivers

other games got increases in fps for sure

because my gaming ssd is separate it has the old settings from when I ran the 14900K

Balanced power plan and tried cores 0-15 and 1-15.

 

the only thing that’s weird to me is how hot this cpu runs. I thought the 14900K was a hot CPU topping out at like 82C

my 9959X3D is getting all the way to 91. I even put a contact plate and re applied thermal grizzly.

i feel like my CPU isn’t boosting at all. Maybe getting to 3.2ghz on a core while playing DCS. I know something isn’t right but I am so confused as to what it is.

[speed-of-heat]

Well, if you did a fresh windows install, you also need to undo some things:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-to-optimize-gaming-performance-in-windows-11-a255f612-2949-4373-a566-ff6f3f474613

 

[niru27]

3 hours ago, The_Cokester said:

the only thing that’s weird to me is how hot this cpu runs. I thought the 14900K was a hot CPU topping out at like 82C

my 9959X3D is getting all the way to 91. I even put a contact plate and re applied thermal grizzly.

i feel like my CPU isn’t boosting at all. Maybe getting to 3.2ghz on a core while playing DCS. I know something isn’t right but I am so confused as to what it is.

There's your answer. In VR the max I've observed is 72-74, 60-65 in non VR. With an air cooler.

Clean and re-apply thermal paste and run Cinebench. 

[Hiob]

4 hours ago, The_Cokester said:

my 9959X3D is getting all the way to 91. I even put a contact plate and re applied thermal grizzly.

What do you mean with “contact plate”?

[speed-of-heat]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

What do you mean with “contact plate”?

I suspect one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermalright-Contact-Anti-Bending-Buckle-Black/dp/B0BKZM72Z8/ref=asc_df_B0BKZM72Z8?tag=bingshoppinga-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80745572594929&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=t&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=41814&hvtargid=pla-4584345041787298&th=1

[Hiob]

3 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

I suspect one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermalright-Contact-Anti-Bending-Buckle-Black/dp/B0BKZM72Z8/ref=asc_df_B0BKZM72Z8?tag=bingshoppinga-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80745572594929&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=t&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=41814&hvtargid=pla-4584345041787298&th=1

Ah, ok. Thank you. I wasn't aware of those.
I had the faint suspicion, OP would use thermal pads AND paste together. Which oif course would have explained bad temps.

Nevermind.

[The_Cokester]

7 hours ago, niru27 said:

There's your answer. In VR the max I've observed is 72-74, 60-65 in non VR. With an air cooler.

Clean and re-apply thermal paste and run Cinebench. 

Okay. Jesus this will be the third time. 

11 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

Well, if you did a fresh windows install, you also need to undo some things:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-to-optimize-gaming-performance-in-windows-11-a255f612-2949-4373-a566-ff6f3f474613

 

I will try this. Although I think the problem is my CPU isn’t boosting. It’s getting to hot and throttling.

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

Ah, ok. Thank you. I wasn't aware of those.
I had the faint suspicion, OP would use thermal pads AND paste together. Which oif course would have explained bad temps.

Nevermind.

It had a dramatic effect on temps with the 14900K. Like 8-10C drop. So I was hoping it would help with AMD. Will reapply thermal paste and see if that helps.

[The_Cokester]

19 hours ago, Tomcat388th said:

I have no idea if this will help or even applies to you. I remember a Youtube  vid byJay2cents he does computer reviews and such.  With the newer AMD X3D cpu's you needed to have windows 11 power plan set to Balanced.  If you have high performance it holds back the cpu..  Easy enough to try

J

 

I have followed all those tips for sure. Which is why I am at a loss for figuring out what is going on.

[Hiob]

17 minutes ago, The_Cokester said:

I have followed all those tips for sure. Which is why I am at a loss for figuring out what is going on.

If you want to be sure that windows isn't interfering with cpu power states, disable the power service completely. With the added benefit of improved latency. (potentially less stutter).

Have you made sure that XMP (or whatever AMD calls it - performance profiles for your RAM) is enabled and working properly? Bios up to date?

[mkel2010]

I just built a very similar system using the same CPU and motherboard (I'm using the Ryujin 360 Water Cooler, 96GB of RAM and a RTX 5070 Ti OC.) I had a hell of a time getting the motherboard working correctly at first. The first board had to be returned because a of a memory slot issue. The second board initially gave me CPU errors which I later determined was caused by an older BIOS  that came with the board. I had to flash the BIOS three or four times to finally get everything working correctly. I have not changed any settings to memory or CPU overclocking and my CPU at idle is running about 43 degrees Centigrade. When I load a mission or start DCS it might briefly spike up to the mid 70s and then drop back down for the rest of the session.

I would suggest re-flashing the BIOS with the system shut down and see if that changes anything. 

[The_Cokester]

22 minutes ago, mkel2010 said:

I just built a very similar system using the same CPU and motherboard (I'm using the Ryujin 360 Water Cooler, 96GB of RAM and a RTX 5070 Ti OC.) I had a hell of a time getting the motherboard working correctly at first. The first board had to be returned because a of a memory slot issue. The second board initially gave me CPU errors which I later determined was caused by an older BIOS  that came with the board. I had to flash the BIOS three or four times to finally get everything working correctly. I have not changed any settings to memory or CPU overclocking and my CPU at idle is running about 43 degrees Centigrade. When I load a mission or start DCS it might briefly spike up to the mid 70s and then drop back down for the rest of the session.

I would suggest re-flashing the BIOS with the system shut down and see if that changes anything. 

Latest bios was installed before I even installed windows. I’m really leaning towards a thermal throttle issue.

[niru27]

1 hour ago, The_Cokester said:

Okay. Jesus this will be the third time.

It won't matter of you do it 100 times if your technique is wrong. Too much/too little paste will both cause increase in temperature.

Hence my question #3 above.

Watch some videos, try to replicate, run benchmark, and as long as you're within a couple of percents of the expected score for that CPU, you're good

[The_Cokester]

Brother i have been building PC’s for over ten years. I appreciate the concern but I am not what you would call a novice at this stuff. 

33 minutes ago, niru27 said:

It won't matter of you do it 100 times if your technique is wrong. Too much/too little paste will both cause increase in temperature.

Hence my question #3 above.

Watch some videos, try to replicate, run benchmark, and as long as you're within a couple of percents of the expected score for that CPU, you're good

 

[Hiob]

13 hours ago, The_Cokester said:

i feel like my CPU isn’t boosting at all. Maybe getting to 3.2ghz on a core while playing DCS. I know something isn’t right but I am so confused as to what it is.

If that is the case, I would strongly suspect bios shannanigans (or windows chipset driver issues to a lesser extend). 
Even if the thermal connection would be sub par, it would still boost temporarily. I f it really doesn't boost at all, don't bother opening the case and examine the bios.
Nowadays (imho) BIOSs got pretty convoluted and it is pretty easy to mess up. And on top MoBo companies screw up themselves to often.

[mkel2010]

2 minutes ago, Hiob said:

If that is the case, I would strongly suspect bios shannanigans (or windows chipset driver issues to a lesser extend). 
Even if the thermal connection would be sub par, it would still boost temporarily. I f it really doesn't boost at all, don't bother opening the case and examine the bios.
Nowadays (imho) BIOSs got pretty convoluted and it is pretty easy to mess up. And on top MoBo companies screw up themselves to often.

My exact experience with this MB/CPU combo. 

[The_Cokester]

10 minutes ago, Hiob said:

If that is the case, I would strongly suspect bios shannanigans (or windows chipset driver issues to a lesser extend). 
Even if the thermal connection would be sub par, it would still boost temporarily. I f it really doesn't boost at all, don't bother opening the case and examine the bios.
Nowadays (imho) BIOSs got pretty convoluted and it is pretty easy to mess up. And on top MoBo companies screw up themselves to often.

This makes sense. The only option from default I changed was turning on EXPO for the RAM.

i thought about PBO and the curve optimizer for lowering the voltage but that’s about it.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

4 hours ago, Hiob said:

Ah, ok. Thank you. I wasn't aware of those.

Contact frames exist for AMD too but for different reasons compared to those for Intel: while on Intel they are needed to ensure proper contact between IHS and cooler/pump, for AMD they are mainly used to prevent thermal paste making too much of a mess, as the IHS on AM5 doesn’t cover the entire die. I have one from Thermal Grizzly for that very reason; it keeps things a lot more clean.

[Hiob]

14 minutes ago, The_Cokester said:

This makes sense. The only option from default I changed was turning on EXPO for the RAM.

i thought about PBO and the curve optimizer for lowering the voltage but that’s about it.

For my trusty Aorus Master X570 that is exactly right. Just leave everything on default, turn on XMP/EXPO and you have a ruuning machine that performs within 97% of its optimum.

However, things have become more difficult since then (thanks, DDR5 ) - at least that's the bottom line from what I've taken in from the tech and pc-builder-scene.

I haven't personally built a DDR5 system yet. Mine's not due yet. So my experience is limited to second sources and hearsay.

Just now, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

Contact frames exist for AMD too but for different reasons compared to those for Intel: while on Intel they are needed to ensure proper contact between IHS and cooler/pump, for AMD they are mainly used to prevent thermal paste making too much of a mess, as the IHS on AM5 doesn’t cover the entire die. I have one from Thermal Grizzly for that very reason; it keeps things a lot more clean.

I see. Thanks for the headsup. Will eventually come in handy.

[niru27]

15 hours ago, The_Cokester said:

my 9959X3D is getting all the way to 91. I even put a contact plate and re applied thermal grizzly.

i feel like my CPU isn’t boosting at all. Maybe getting to 3.2ghz on a core while playing DCS. I know something isn’t right but I am so confused as to what it is.

1 hour ago, The_Cokester said:

Brother i have been building PC’s for over ten years. I appreciate the concern but I am not what you would call a novice at this stuff. 

Testing thermals and system stability should be the first thing you do after installing OS + drivers. If you failed to do that, you are still a novice. And you've been a novice for 10 years sadly.

Your ignorant conclusion (thread title) is misinforming other community members:

23 hours ago, Raisuli said:

Well, cool.  You just saved me a bunch of coin because I've been noodling that exact migration...

 

x3D CPUs have been known to punch way above their weights in simulation games. Do you really think the CPU with the highest L3 cache is somehow worse than a known to be defective/unstable CPU?

Please stop taking this personally, use this opportunity to up your PC building skill. I'm not saying this is all your fault, it could still be a defective component. But you need to do your due diligence first.

Once you have a stable system, you can use Curve Optimizer to undervolt the CPU for even better thermals and idle draw.

FYI, my thermals I posted above are on a dual tower air cooler, with no contact frame, and 3 year old thermal paste.

[The_Cokester]

12 minutes ago, niru27 said:

Testing thermals and system stability should be the first thing you do after installing OS + drivers. If you failed to do that, you are still a novice. And you've been a novice for 10 years sadly.

Your ignorant conclusion (thread title) is misinforming other community members:

 

x3D CPUs have been known to punch way above their weights in simulation games. Do you really think the CPU with the highest L3 cache is somehow worse than a known to be defective/unstable CPU?

Please stop taking this personally, use this opportunity to up your PC building skill. I'm not saying this is all your fault, it could still be a defective component. But you need to do your due diligence first.

Once you have a stable system, you can use Curve Optimizer to undervolt the CPU for even better thermals and idle draw.

FYI, my thermals I posted above are on a dual tower air cooler, with no contact frame, and 3 year old thermal paste.

Whoa on the hostility brother. We’re just trying to solve a problem here. All I meant with that comment is I am versed in building PC’s, updating bios and drivers, and generally pretty good at troubleshooting. I know this CPU should be doing a lot better than it is. The 9950X3D is an objectively better CPU than the 14900K. The title represents exactly how I felt and in my first post I even said the uplift in other games was good.

also on the thermals, if you do a quick search it says 95C at full load is normal. So I wasn’t quick to follow through with that. My highest is like 90C. Being my first X3D cpu I don’t know what to expect.

the other comment you replied too wasn’t me btw.

[niru27]

12 minutes ago, The_Cokester said:

also on the thermals, if you do a quick search it says 95C at full load is normal. So I wasn’t quick to follow through with that. My highest is like 90C. Being my first X3D cpu I don’t know what to expect.

That's precisely the point I'm trying to make: games are not "full load". Rendering videos, running multicore benchmarks...those load all your cores, and generate max heat. Games shouldn't be generating that much heat at all (hence why I went with an air cooler). So if your CPU is throttling when playing games (DCS does need more CPU than other games), then obviously it's an issue with your thermals, whether it's a defect in your CPU/cooler or improper install is what needs to be diagnosed.

12 minutes ago, The_Cokester said:

the other comment you replied too wasn’t me btw.

I know, what I meant to say was your thread gave Raisuli the (false) impression that 14900k to 9950x3D is a downgrade