Beating MiG-29 with F-4

[Civetta_ITA]

Hi everyone — I’ve been trying to settle a question that’s been bugging me in DCS: is it realistically possible to beat a MiG-29 in a dogfight flying an F-4 (in a head on merge)?

I’ve been using one of the preset F-4 vs MiG-29 missions included in the F-4 package and every time I get into a visual dogfight with a MiG-29 I end up getting out-turned or killed despite trying my best. 

I’m not trying to argue realism here — I know the Phantom is an older airframe — but I’d like to know if anyone has reliable tactics that make an F-4 competitive in a pure dogfight.

I try to keep my energy and avoid sustained turning fights but the MiG usually manages to force a turning engagement or get behind me quickly after the initial pass. 

Thanks in advance.

[Hiob]

"It's not the plane, it's the pilot!" (Rooster)

I'd rather sit in the Fulcrum though, if I had to choose....

[Smokin1469]

Unless the Fulcrum pilot makes a major mistake, your chances of beating a Fulcrum in a visual fight (while flying an F-4) are almost nil.  Fulcrum has significant advantages in turn rate and radius, thrust to weight, and weapons.  I know a pilot who's flown both the Fulcrum and Viper and he says the Fulcrum is very hard to beat in a visual fight, even against the F-16.  

[TheBiggerBass]

I guess the F-4 would just be prey for a MiG-29. The F-16 as a 4th gen aircraft too and F-4 successor will have an equal chance

Edited October 16 by TheBiggerBass

[Civetta_ITA]

Thanks for your replies...now I feel less incompetent eh eh

[Istari6]

It's a generational leap, and the Fulcrum wasn't just 4th generation, it was perhaps the best pure WVR dogfighter of the 4th generation.  The Phantom was 3rd generation, and it wasn't even particularly good at WVR dogfighting in the 3rd generation - see MiG-21 for a better 3rd gen dogfighter.  So it's not just 3rd gen vs 4th gen, it's "average" 3rd gen dogfighter versus the "best of the best" 4th gen dogfighter.  That's a big leap in technological quality, and unless the other pilot makes major mistakes, you're likely doomed.  

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

I managed to beat a MiG-29 once in a dogfight. The other times, I got my behind handed back to me

[Mud]

4 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I managed to beat a MiG-29 once in a dogfight. The other times, I got my behind handed back to me

Let me fly that MIG-29 and you'll win every time. I promise!

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

3 minutes ago, Mud said:

Let me fly that MIG-29 and you'll win every time. I promise!

It’s a date!

[Karon]

On 10/16/2025 at 2:53 PM, Civetta_ITA said:

Hi everyone — I’ve been trying to settle a question that’s been bugging me in DCS: is it realistically possible to beat a MiG-29 in a dogfight flying an F-4 (in a head on merge)?

I’ve been using one of the preset F-4 vs MiG-29 missions included in the F-4 package and every time I get into a visual dogfight with a MiG-29 I end up getting out-turned or killed despite trying my best. 

I’m not trying to argue realism here — I know the Phantom is an older airframe — but I’d like to know if anyone has reliable tactics that make an F-4 competitive in a pure dogfight.

I try to keep my energy and avoid sustained turning fights but the MiG usually manages to force a turning engagement or get behind me quickly after the initial pass. 

Thanks in advance.

You have a pretty good understanding of the issue: when the MiG-29 showed up, the F-4E was still capable of do well in A/A, but F-14/15/16/18 had better chances.

The Phantom II has some advantages: on paper better medium-range missile, four eyes, better avionics in some regards. Besides that, you have better endurance. Almost everything else is against you so, if I were you, I'd try to gain an advantage during the transition from BVR to WVR, assess the situation then, worst case, blow through and bugout. Depending on the fuel status and DI, you should be able to maintain separation enough to return to friendly lines.

This situation reminds me of the F3 vs other aircraft. There are a few interviews here and there on this topic (check Aircrew Interview), they are quite interesting.

[mondo]

It's entirely possible to beat the Mig 29 in the merge. As you merge keep on flying. The Mig 29 will run out of fuel catching you up. Manoeuver kill.

[Kalasnkova74]

On 10/16/2025 at 8:53 AM, Civetta_ITA said:

Hi everyone — I’ve been trying to settle a question that’s been bugging me in DCS: is it realistically possible to beat a MiG-29 in a dogfight flying an F-4 (in a head on merge)?

I’ve been using one of the preset F-4 vs MiG-29 missions included in the F-4 package and every time I get into a visual dogfight with a MiG-29 I end up getting out-turned or killed despite trying my best. 

I’m not trying to argue realism here — I know the Phantom is an older airframe — but I’d like to know if anyone has reliable tactics that make an F-4 competitive in a pure dogfight.

I try to keep my energy and avoid sustained turning fights but the MiG usually manages to force a turning engagement or get behind me quickly after the initial pass. 

Thanks in advance.

Good timing on your post. I recently switched my F-4E BFM training mission opponent from an aced MiG-15 to the MiG-29. 

After losing the first ten fights, I’ve killed the Fulcrum 4x. The last two were head on gun passes.

Im still paying my skill tax, but the core tactic is to pretend you’re in an F-104. Only turn in enough to force a head on pass. Fix the cannon sight and hose that MiG with 20mm at the merge. If he’s still alive, keep flying straight until you’ve got some knots back, then gently turn back. Feel free to cash in some energy to make the head on merge happen, because you’re not turning after his tail. 

In case I didn’t make this clear, don’t turn in after the Fulcrum- even if he makes an error and gives you his six. No amount of BFM skill will overcome a Fulcrum’s thrust and turn advantage at close range. You’ll saddle into the control zone long enough to see him shake you off like a bad Facebook post. Act like Maverick here and you’ll get shot down like him. Even if you’re good and force an in-close overshoot by the MiG , you won’t have the energy to do anything to the Fulcrum. 

Dont bother with Sparrows or older Sidewinders unless the MiG loses sight and leaves the fight. If he goes vertical , don’t follow him up unless you’re above Mach. 
Flying big ovals might not win any visual effects Oscars, but you’ll still bag a Fulcrum or two with a Phantom. 

 

 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 10/21/2025 at 1:45 AM, mondo said:

The Mig 29 will run out of fuel catching you up.

AI MiG-29s perhaps, but players are smarter than AI: if I do a dogfight in a MiG-29 against an AI F-15/16/18 (with both of us starting at identical amounts of fuel), the AI runs out of fuel first, and I still have enough to fly to the opposite side of the map to land.
Manoeuvre kill! 

[303_Kermit]

On 10/19/2025 at 7:57 PM, Karon said:

The Phantom II has some advantages: on paper better medium-range missile,

Which one of F-4 Missiles would be better than R-27R/T/ER/ET?

[Karon]

On 10/24/2025 at 5:58 AM, 303_Kermit said:

Which one of F-4 Missiles would be better than R-27R/T/ER/ET?

Besides the latest patch that I'm still checking, if we assume a 1983 encounter, you can take an AIM-7M (1982) vs an R-27R (1983). In such a scenario, our Phantom is already 10 years older than the MiG-29+R-27R combo. Besides, the Phantom at that point would have still carried AIM-7E and F, I suppose.
Also, the MiG-29 should go around with R-60s at this point, whereas, IIRC the Phantom should already have all-aspect AIM-9s. I need to check the dates though.
There are also some DCS oddities to consider, but that should be it.

The ER/ET were basically unseen abroad until mid-to-late 90s. That's 20+ years after our Phantom. It's like taking AIM-54s in the Korean War, time-wise. Disregarding all that, by the time the Extended variants were around, our mid-70s Phantom-E was either long gone, or would have been escorted by other, more capable A/A assets. Also, music helps a bit to mess with the range advantage, just enough to bravely bugout.

[Kev2go]

On 10/17/2025 at 2:32 AM, Civetta_ITA said:

Thanks for your replies...now I feel less incompetent eh eh

yeah don't feel incompetent for losing to Mig29's. It is a completely different generation of aircraft. better radar. better missiles, better raw performance and maneuverability. The only thing the phantom has going for it more loiter time and a larger payload in terms of ordinance quantity, but in general the odds are highly stacked against you.

 

IF your flying in 1980s era cold war  multiplayer servers that have lots Mig29's as Red air treat the F4E as a fighter past its prime that is instead relegated to bomb truck roles. however in Air to surface department it has limitations compared to aircraft of that time frame which i think will be addressed when a later variant of F4E refitted with DMAS is eventually added enhancing the phantoms air to surface capabilities.

Edited Tuesday at 02:32 AM by Kev2go

[303_Kermit]

On 10/25/2025 at 2:02 PM, Karon said:

Besides the latest patch that I'm still checking, if we assume a 1983 encounter, you can take an AIM-7M (1982) vs an R-27R (1983). In such a scenario, our Phantom is already 10 years older than the MiG-29+R-27R combo. Besides, the Phantom at that point would have still carried AIM-7E and F, I suppose.
Also, the MiG-29 should go around with R-60s at this point, whereas, IIRC the Phantom should already have all-aspect AIM-9s. I need to check the dates though.
There are also some DCS oddities to consider, but that should be it.

The ER/ET were basically unseen abroad until mid-to-late 90s. That's 20+ years after our Phantom. It's like taking AIM-54s in the Korean War, time-wise. Disregarding all that, by the time the Extended variants were around, our mid-70s Phantom-E was either long gone, or would have been escorted by other, more capable A/A assets. Also, music helps a bit to mess with the range advantage, just enough to bravely bugout.

I hate such discussions. I flew 2 years exclusively F-1CE / EE / BE. Back then F-4 wasn't much of a challenge. Short on fuel, slow. Now I fly F-4 Exclusively - I can't see the advantage of using AiM-7M. Sure- it probably mattered for F-4J/S and other Navy variants, since they could utilize Doppler filter, and were able to perform top down shooting. But "E" ? You need to be skilled , and be a part of very well coordinated team to kill MiG-29 in 2 vs 1 combat. In 1 on 1 your best chance is some friendly SAM site. Run wait for SAM lunch, recomit, don't be too greedy. Rather defensive as offensive. But maybe you're better than me?

[Karon]

10 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

I hate such discussions. I flew 2 years exclusively F-1CE / EE / BE. Back then F-4 wasn't much of a challenge. Short on fuel, slow. Now I fly F-4 Exclusively - I can't see the advantage of using AiM-7M. Sure- it probably mattered for F-4J/S and other Navy variants, since they could utilize Doppler filter, and were able to perform top down shooting. But "E" ? You need to be skilled , and be a part of very well coordinated team to kill MiG-29 in 2 vs 1 combat. In 1 on 1 your best chance is some friendly SAM site. Run wait for SAM lunch, recomit, don't be too greedy. Rather defensive as offensive. But maybe you're better than me?

Better than you? I don't know, does it matter? What does better even mean? Certainly, I do things differently than you, and keep trying until I find a solution, or the best alternative to that.

For instance, are you familiar with the new R-27 family (I made a video discussing it)? Have you checked its performance? If you had, you'd see that the 7M has an advantage, kinematics-wise, especially beyond 5-7nm, and it is more pronounced at low or high altitudes. Normally, it wouldn't mean much: "the shoot asap" idea works only vs AI and new players. But, this is one of the exceptions because you have 4 missiles against 2. If it's a 1v1, totally unrealistic scenario, bloody spam them. Worst case, you are lighter when you bugout.
The R-60M, correct me if I'm wrong, is another 1983 missile. IIRC it has all-aspect capability, but it is quite old and very light. The AIM-7L had already all-aspect capability half a decade prior. It is also worth checking if the 7M was already around in 1983. Don't dismiss FQ IR shots!

So, missiles-wise, you have a minor advantage both in quantity and capability. But, I have the feeling your biggest issue is the radar. I take for granted you have flying with a competent human WSO. Sure, lookdown is a problem, but it can be done depending on how the MLC intersects target and terrain (I have a video about that). If not, take a negative offset, radar on standby, pre-set the elevation, and switch to xmit at 35-45nm. If the MiG goes down to ground level, heck, I'd be tempted to stay up and start to bugout: the MiG does not have the legs to chase you at that point (I have a video about that too).
I'm not saying it is a fair match, not at all, but you have 2 strengths: try using them, if not, blow through, unload and bug out. Remember that a clean Phantom supercruises, the MiG doesn't.

Anecdote: shortly after the Tomcat was released, we played some 2v1 or even 3v1. If the 54s didn't connect, there was no way I was going against AIM-120C-5s with AIM-7 and in numerical inferiority. So, I told my pilot to go cold and unload. After a few minutes, I hopped on the radio and asked the Hornets if they were happy to continue as we were until they were dry, or to start a new engagement: I had fuel, they didn't, since they had to defend from AIM-54s and then chase me. Result: no one won in that case, and we started a new test.
I hope you see my point: if what you are doing does not work, try something different. If it doesn't work, unload and bugout: don't get killed only because manoeuvring or playing the fuel card is "not fun", it makes no sense.
Btw, opening a book about military aviation history shows that the majority of the engagements ended with zero kills: some shots fired, then weather/fuel came up or positional advantage never materialised, and people went home. This is a game, of course, and you can depart, make a loop and crash on the runway every time you want if this is your thing. However, I personally don't see where the fun is in getting splashed for free. What do you think?

[SuperKermit]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb 303_Kermit:

I flew 2 years exclusively F-1CE / EE / BE. Back then F-4 wasn't much of a challenge. Short on fuel, slow. Now I fly F-4 Exclusively

May I ask what made you switch to the F-4?