An F/A-18C Lot 20 Cockpit that Looks and Feels... Right (56° FoV)

[Bowie]

An F/A-18C Lot 20 Cockpit that Looks and Feels... Right (56° FoV)

 

The Mk.1 Eyeball - is a 1X instrument.

It sees in 52.5 MIL's, or 52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft./1° of angle.  (MIL -  1' @ 1,000', as in MIL rings on a gunsight.)

If one sees less, they are zoomed in with a reduced FoV(Field of View); more, and they are zoomed out with an increased FoV.

 

And this is not about realistic relativity, but scale and proportion.

Take a picture with a 1X lens, and that image will show a 52.5 MIL/° of angle view regardless of the image size, postage stamp to jumbo-tron, or viewing distance, 30" or 30'.

52.5 MIL's.

 

To simplify DCS, the FoV of the A/C have been increased to allow panoramic viewing, reducing the need to pan.

But it is no longer 52.5 MIL's, more like Twice that.

This bends the image and reduces the size of objects, near and far, to get then to fit in the single Arcade view.

 

Flat 52.5 MIL human sight requires that one point their nose in the direction of the new view - Pan.

 

The difficulty lies with determining what is a 52.5 MIL view, if desired, from a user perspective.

Subjective analysis - of how known things should look, in relation to other things, at understandable distances.

 

F/A-18C Lot 20: (56° FoV)

Save a 'RAlt+num0' cockpit view angle to get it implanted in the User 'SnapViews' file.

With Notepad++, open C:/user/"user name"/Saved Games/DCS.openbeta/Config/View/SnapViews.lua.

(make a copy first and rename it. e.g. "SnapViews - OEM.lua".

Find the new "FA-18C_hornet" section.

Change (copy/paste):

SnapViews["FA-18C_hornet"] = {
[1] = {-- player slot 1
    [1] = {--LWin + Num0 : Snap View 0
        viewAngle        = 56.000000,--FOV 60.000000, 56.000000, OEM 63.000000 "FA-18C_hornet"
        viewAngleVertical= 0.000000,--VFOV
        hAngle            = 0.000000,--    (Snap Center)/(Cockpit panel view in)(-30°)
        vAngle            = -30.000000,-- Cockpit View -30.000000, OEM -15.700000
        x_trans            = 0.015000,-- Cockpit View In_Trans 0.015000(60/56°), OEM 0.130000
        y_trans            = -0.017000,-- Cockpit View Up_Trans -0.017000, OEM -0.008300
        z_trans            = 0.000000,-- Cockpit View Rt_Trans 0.000000, OEM 0.000000
        rollAngle        = 0.000000,
        cockpit_version    = 0,
    },

...
    [13] = {--default view
        viewAngle        = 41.000000,--FOV 44.180000(60°), 41.000000(56°), OEM 63.000000 "FA-18C_hornet"
        viewAngleVertical= 0.000000,--VFOV
        hAngle            = 0.000000,--    (View Center)/(Cam View Dn-Slow)(-30°)
        vAngle            = 0.000000,-- Cockpit View  Angle   0.000000, OEM -15.700000
        x_trans            = 0.015000,-- Cockpit View In_Trans 0.015000(60/56°), OEM 0.130000
        y_trans            = -0.017000,-- Cockpit View Up_Trans -0.017000, OEM -0.008300
        z_trans            = 0.000000,-- Cockpit View Rt_Trans 0.000000, OEM 0.000000
        rollAngle        = 0.000000,
        cockpit_version    = 0,
    },

 

Set the Options/System/External field of view to 56° as well, for 52.5 MIL External viewing.

 

For the Logitec Extreme 3D Pro, with 4 stick head buttons and a hat:

UL (JOY_BTN5) = "camera view down slow"

UR (JOY_BTN6) = "View Center"

LL (JOY_BTN3) = "view left"

LR (JOY_BTN4) = "view right"

Hat (JOY_BTN_POV1_x) = default pan function

 

This provides:

(UL) Instrument Panel view (-30°), w/ additional down views.

(UR) Gunsight view (dedicated)

(LL) Fast Pan - left (over the shoulder from Gunsight view)

(LR) Fast Pan - right (over the shoulder from Gunsight view)

(Hat) Pan - from any view or location

 

Pilot Views - from the F/A-18C Lot 20 Cockpit: (56° FoV)

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

Edited 18 hours ago by Bowie

[Kdrum]

Does this apply to all size monitors?

[Bowie]

3 hours ago, Kdrum said:

Does this apply to all size monitors?

Of course.

Postage stamp to jumbo-tron, at any viewing distance.

52.5 MIL's.

 

Bowie

[db349]

Interesting stuff, thanks !

But how do you arrive at 56°FOV ? I have always aimed for 64°FOV in every module, which seems OK to me, but it's purely subjective.

I prefer a bit more zoomed out than zoomed in for a slightly better speed perception.

To compensate for the loss of "viewing estate" with the FOV reduction (compared to default) I move the default eye viewing point a bit to the back of the cockpit (whilst keeping the FOV), which helps a lot. 

[Bowie]

6 hours ago, db349 said:

Interesting stuff, thanks !

But how do you arrive at 56°FOV ? I have always aimed for 64°FOV in every module, which seems OK to me, but it's purely subjective.

I prefer a bit more zoomed out than zoomed in for a slightly better speed perception.

To compensate for the loss of "viewing estate" with the FOV reduction (compared to default) I move the default eye viewing point a bit to the back of the cockpit (whilst keeping the FOV), which helps a lot. 

Subjective analysis - of how known things should look, in relation to other things, at understandable distances.

And this is world view, so it should be the same in all modules, as well as the Options/System/External field of view.

52.5 MIL's.

 

Have tested a wide range, and done some research.

Industry std. appears to be ~ 55°, but DCS looks and runs better at 56°, and precisely matches the in-cockpit '41.000000' viewAngle.

 

For jets - it's the cockpit and ground view at low level.

Does it feel right, and does the ground move flat and smooth, especially when panning.

 

For Prop Fighters, again, cockpit, but then, how enemy planes look and interact.

Are they visible at accepted visual ranges, or do they look zoomed in and pan slow.

Is the gunsight MIL ring usable and effective, or do bullets apparently slow down because the visual distance is reduced.

And, again, Panning.

Smooth, flat, and fast, like the Mk.1 eyeball.

 

Bowie

Edited Wednesday at 04:37 PM by Bowie

[BJ55]

Don't bring MoA, MRAD and MIL to monitor FoV settings, they belong only to precision optical instruments.

"Take a picture with a 1X lens, and that image will show a 52.5 MIL view"
It depends on the camera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_view_(photography) .
52.5 MIL=3°, a common 10x military grade riflescope has a 20° FoV, human eye 180°... Drunk and under high G 30°.

Monitor FoV calculation is simple: you know the display width, you know the distance from the eye to the display, do some math, or use the millions of calculators you find in the web, then adjust to your like.

[Bowie]

29 minutes ago, BJ55 said:

Don't bring MoA, MRAD and MIL to monitor FoV settings, they belong only to precision optical instruments.

"Take a picture with a 1X lens, and that image will show a 52.5 MIL view"
It depends on the camera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_view_(photography) .
52.5 MIL=3°, a common 10x military grade riflescope has a 20° FoV, human eye 180°... Drunk and under high G 30°.

Monitor FoV calculation is simple: you know the display width, you know the distance from the eye to the display, do some math, or use the millions of calculators you find in the web, then adjust to your like.

And this is not about realistic relativity, but scale and proportion.

Take a picture with a 1X lens, and that image will show a 52.5 MIL view regardless of the image size, postage stamp to jumbo-tron, or viewing distance, 30" or 30'.

52.5 MIL's, or 52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft./1° of angle.

 

Bowie

Edited Wednesday at 04:57 PM by Bowie

[BJ55]

That's because your camera is broken, don't buy cheapo from Ali! A simple camera can have a AoV of 40-45° (circa 700 MIL, but such high angle cannot be measured with that unit because of the excessive error, since MIL is a linear dimension: 10cm height @ 100m distance, not a fraction of an angle).

Edited yesterday at 06:04 AM by BJ55
zero missing

[Bowie]

2 hours ago, BJ55 said:

That's because your camera is broken, don't buy cheapo from Ali! A simple camera can have a AoV of 40-45° (circa 700 MIL, but such high angle cannot be measured with that unit because of the excessive error, since MIL is a linear dimension: 1cm height @ 100m distance, not a fraction of an angle).

You obfuscate the point.

A MIL - is also 1' @ 1,000', as in MIL rings on a gunsight.

Flat human sight is 52.5 MIL, or 52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft./1° of angle.

1X view.

If the images you see on your monitor are not that, they are modified and distorted.

Regardless of the image size, postage stamp to jumbo-tron, or viewing distance, 30" or 30'.

52.5 MIL's

 

Bowie

Edited Wednesday at 07:53 PM by Bowie

[BJ55]

My monitor is at 70cm / 27.5in distance, 52.5 Mil at that distance = 3.675cm /  1.43in... So you suggest I must watch DCS in a dumbphone display? Where does the "Flat human sight" come from?

You're confusing linear dimensions (in, cm, Mil) with angular dimensions (degree, MoA, MRAD).

Edited yesterday at 07:28 AM by BJ55

[Bowie]

9 hours ago, BJ55 said:

My monitor is at 70cm / 27.5in distance, 52.5 Mil at that distance = 3.675cm /  1.43in... So you suggest I must watch DCS in a dumbphone display? Where does the "Flat human sight" come from?

You're confusing linear dimensions (in, cm, Mil) with angular dimensions (degree, MoA, MRAD).

Again...

... a MIL - is also 1' @ 1,000', as in MIL rings on a gunsight.

Flat human sight is 52.5 MIL, or 52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft./1° of angle.

1X view.

 

Take a picture with a 1X lens, and that image will show a 52.5 MIL/° of angle view regardless of the image size, postage stamp to jumbo-tron, or viewing distance, 30" or 30'.

52.5 MIL's.

To simplify DCS, the FoV of the A/C have been increased to allow panoramic viewing, reducing the need to pan.

 

Sure, the Chameleon Sight with Superman Vision arcade view makes the game easy and fun.

But unless one is a Chameleon, with Superman vision?

Kind of defeats the purpose of a Simulator.

 

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

Mk.1 eyeball.

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Bowie

[SlipHavoc]

There is no single zoom level that will give an FOV that's the same as real life on every size and distance of monitor.  This is obvious with a few simple examples, and as another person pointed out, there are already a bunch of online calculators to help you set up your FOV so what you see on your particular monitor is the same as what you would see in real life.  So I think you must be talking about something else, but it's impossible to say what because your communication is unclear.

[Bowie]

13 minutes ago, SlipHavoc said:

There is no single zoom level that will give an FOV that's the same as real life on every size and distance of monitor.  This is obvious with a few simple examples, and as another person pointed out, there are already a bunch of online calculators to help you set up your FOV so what you see on your particular monitor is the same as what you would see in real life.  So I think you must be talking about something else, but it's impossible to say what because your communication is unclear.

Does a 1X picture care what size it is, or what distance it is viewed at?

 

Look at the OP images.

Then look at them from across the room.

Then look at them on your phone.

 

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

Mk.1 eyeball view, at any size or distance.

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Bowie

[SlipHavoc]

Just now, Bowie said:

Does a picture care what size it is, or what distance it is viewed at?

Yes, obviously it does, if you want to see what your eyes would actually see if you were sitting in the cockpit of a real plane.  This is why I say you must be talking about something else, but you are either unable to communicate exactly what you are talking about, or I'm unable to understand it.

[Bowie]

16 minutes ago, SlipHavoc said:

Yes, obviously it does, if you want to see what your eyes would actually see if you were sitting in the cockpit of a real plane.  This is why I say you must be talking about something else, but you are either unable to communicate exactly what you are talking about, or I'm unable to understand it.

You are confusing scale and proportion with realistic relativity.

Build an environment that produces realistic relative size, and enjoy your dome simulator.

For a flat panel monitor on the desk, scale and proportion.

 

Look at the OP images.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

Mk.1 eyeball view, at any size or distance.

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Bowie

[SlipHavoc]

30 minutes ago, Bowie said:

You are confusing scale and proportion with realistic relativity.

I have no idea what you mean by "realistic relativity".  Monitors exist on a scale all the way from a tiny phone screen to a huge cockpit dome simulator, and there is no single FOV that will give a realistic view on all of them.  I'm not sure why you think 56 degrees, or 52.5 mils, or 41 degrees, is the magic number that will.  If you want to see the same thing on your monitor as your eyes would see through the same size viewport in real life, the FOV you need depends on the size of your monitor and how far it is away from you, and there are already online calculators that will tell you what FOV you need.

Edited 18 hours ago by SlipHavoc

[Lace]

1 hour ago, Bowie said:

Again...

... a MIL - is also 1' @ 1,000', as in MIL rings on a gunsight.

Flat human sight is 52.5 MIL, or 52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft./1° of angle.

 

MIL/° isn't a thing.  mils are an angular approximation (actually just a 1:1000 ratio, and only accurate at very small angles), degrees are an angle.  MIL/° doesn't make any sense.

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Lace

[Bowie]

4 minutes ago, SlipHavoc said:

I have no idea what you mean by "realistic relativity".  Monitors exist on a scale all the way from a tiny phone screen to a huge cockpit dome simulator, and there is no single FOV that will give a realistic view on all of them.  I'm not sure why you think 56 degrees, or 52.5 mils, or 41 degrees, is the magic number that will.  If you want to see the same thing on your monitor as your eyes would see through the same size viewport in real life, the FOV you need depends on the size of your monitor and how far it is away from you, and there are already online calculators that will tell you what FOV you need.

Again...

Look at the OP images.

Then look at them from across the room.

Then look at them on your phone.

 

The image does not change in scale and proportion.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

Mk.1 eyeball view, at any size or distance.

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

[razo+r]

1 minute ago, Bowie said:

Again...

Look at the OP images.

Then look at them from across the room.

Then look at them on your phone.

 

The image does not change in scale and proportion.

 

It does. Across the room, the picture is barely a thumb wide and if I press my face against the screen, it covers much more of my view. The proportion stays the same, but the scale is way different.

[Bowie]

10 minutes ago, Lace said:

MIL/° isn't a thing.  mils are an angular approximation (actually just a 1:1000 ratio, and only accurate at very small angles), degrees are an angle.  MIL/° doesn't make any sense.

Also, your calculation above is wrong, 52.5 mil is 4.375 ft @1000 ft, not 52.5 ft.

MIL... per 1° Angle.

And a MIL - is also 1' @ 1,000', as in MIL rings on a gunsight.

Human vision - is 52.5 ft./1,000 ft., per 1° of Angle.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

Edited 17 hours ago by Bowie

[SlipHavoc]

1 minute ago, Bowie said:

Again...

Look at the OP images.

Then look at them from across the room.

Then look at them on your phone.

Yes.  When I look at them from across the room, or from 2 inches away, they take up different amounts of room in my visual field.  However, they only take up the same amount of room in my visual field as they would in real life at one specific distance, and that depends on how big my monitor is.  I'm glad you've found an FOV that works for you, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone else.

[Bowie]

Just now, razo+r said:

It does. Across the room, the picture is barely a thumb wide and if I press my face against the screen, it covers much more of my view. The proportion stays the same, but the scale is way different.

Has the image changed?

 

Bowie

[razo+r]

Just now, Bowie said:

Has the image changed?

 

Bowie

The scale has changed, but the cockpit is still there.

[SlipHavoc]

I thought I had a feeling of deja vu, and indeed you've posted about this phenomena before and in much the same style.  If you still don't understand after all these posts why the FOV isn't going to be the same for everyone's setup regardless of monitor size and difference, then I probably won't be able to explain it to you either.  But I'm pretty sure you're the one who is confused here.

[Lace]

6 minutes ago, Bowie said:

MIL... per 1° Angle.

And a MIL - is also 1' @ 1,000', as in MIL rings on a gunsight.

Human vision - is 52.5 ft./1,000 ft., per 1° of Angle.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

You can repeat it as many times as you like, but it still doesn't make sense.  I understand what a mil is (not MIL BTW), and I understand what a degree is.  I have no idea what a 'MIL per degree' is supposed to mean.