An F/A-18C Lot 20 Cockpit that Looks and Feels... Right (56° FoV)

[Bowie]

1 hour ago, Lace said:

You can repeat it as many times as you like, but it still doesn't make sense.  I understand what a mil is (not MIL BTW), and I understand what a degree is.  I have no idea what a 'MIL per degree' is supposed to mean.

A MIL - is an angle that subtends 1 ft. @ 1,000 ft.

Human vision - sees at an angle of 52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft., for every degree of view.

A 56° field of view - would subtend 2940 ft. @ 1,000 ft.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

 

Edited yesterday at 05:43 PM by Bowie

[Bowie]

24 minutes ago, SlipHavoc said:

I thought I had a feeling of deja vu, and indeed you've posted about this phenomena before and in much the same style.  If you still don't understand after all these posts why the FOV isn't going to be the same for everyone's setup regardless of monitor size and difference, then I probably won't be able to explain it to you either.  But I'm pretty sure you're the one who is confused here.

Can only explain it to you, can't understand it for you.

Again...

Look at the OP images.

Then look at them from across the room.

Then look at them on your phone.

 

Does the image change?

Or, does your perspective.

 

The image represents a human view from the location of the 'eyeball' in the cockpit.

What you do with it after that is up to you.

 

Human vision -  52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft., per 1° of Angle.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

Edited yesterday at 04:52 PM by Bowie

[SlipHavoc]

1 minute ago, Bowie said:

Can only explain it to you, can't understand it for you.

Again...

Look at the OP images.

Then look at them from across the room.

Then look at them on your phone.

 

Does the image change?

Or, does your perspective.

 

The image represents a human view from the location of the 'eyeball' in the cockpit.

What you do with it after that is up to you.

 

Human vision -  52.5 ft./1,000 ft., per 1° of Angle.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

Sorry, but you're the one who is confused, and you just keep repeating the same wrong things over and over.  If you haven't gotten that by now, I don't think you're going to, so I'm done here.

[Bowie]

1 minute ago, SlipHavoc said:

Sorry, but you're the one who is confused, and you just keep repeating the same wrong things over and over.  If you haven't gotten that by now, I don't think you're going to, so I'm done here.

Thank you.

One should understand their limitations.

 

Human vision -  52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft., per 1° of Angle.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

 

The image represents a human view from the location of the 'eyeball' in the cockpit.

What you do with it after that is up to you.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

[BJ55]

20 minutes ago, Lace said:

I have no idea what a 'MIL per degree' is supposed to mean.

Don't worry, your're not the only one, all the fellas at the shooting range are asking the same...

[Phantom711]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Bowie:

Human vision -  52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft., per 1° of Angle.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

What is the source of that baseline assumption? What is it based upon? Are we talking about focused vision? Because I can surely see more than 52.5mils.

[Bowie]

46 minutes ago, BJ55 said:

Don't worry, your're not the only one, all the fellas at the shooting range are asking the same...

Human vision -  52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft., per 1° of Angle.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

That image - represents a human view from the location of the 'eyeball' in the cockpit.

What you do with it after that is up to you.

Big or small, near or far, the image does not change, only your perspective of it.

 

Mk.1 eyeball view.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

Edited yesterday at 05:44 PM by Bowie

[Ornithopter]

This thread makes no sense to me.  The FOV of a person is probably about 120° or more

Here is what 41° fov gives me in DCS with the Hornet, and that's as far back as my head will go:

By contrast.  I use a 65" monitor about 3 feet from my face and up to a 120° field of view normally. The above image, at 41° FOV doesn't even seem useable, and certainly not realistic.  Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying.  How does one fly and fight with such a sliver of a view?

Edited yesterday at 05:20 PM by Ornithopter

[Bowie]

12 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

What is the source of that baseline assumption? What is it based upon? Are we talking about focused vision? Because I can surely see more than 52.5mils.

Per degree of view.

A 56° field of view - would subtend 2940 ft. @ 1,000 ft.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

[Bowie]

2 minutes ago, Ornithopter said:

This thread makes no sense to me.  The FOV of a person is probably about 120° or more

Here is what 41° fov gives me in DCS with the Hornet, and that's as far back as my head will go:

By contrast.  I use a 65" monitor about 2 feet from my face and up to a 120° field of view normally. The above image, at 41° FOV doesn't even seem useable, and certainly not realistic.  Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying.  How does one fly and fight with such a sliver of a view?

Again, the issue is view per degree of angle - the 1x human vision 'zoom'.

Look at the OP images.

Are they what one would see in that frame, from the pilot's 'eyeball' perspective?

Or is there more (zoomed out), or less (zoomed in)?

Are the images flat, concave, or convex?

This is very evident in panning, as a non-flat image will distort, as it gets further from the center.

 

Mk.1 eyeball view.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

[Ornithopter]

 

5 minutes ago, Bowie said:

Mk.1 eyeball view.

 

In DCS, that's ~ 56° external/41.0 internal view.

Give it a try.

 

Bowie

 

I DID GIVE IT A TRY.   Thats the 3rd or 4th time you've said that!  As you may have just seen, I just provided a screenshot of what it looked like.  Like I said, it strikes me as completely unusable and unrealistic, but if you like it that way, that's fine.

Edited yesterday at 05:27 PM by Ornithopter

[GregP]

It seems to me that, moving away from the numbers and looking at this more qualitatively, what OP is describing is likely the point at which DCS's 'fish eye lens' effect is mitigated as you zoom in from the default.

While it may be that his numbers correctly identify this point, it's probably also somewhat subjective for each person, with each of us also naturally trying to strike a balance between 1) mitigating the effect, 2) having enough of the cockpit visible on screen so that things 'look right' to us (and here obviously the size of the screen and distance from it play big roles) and 3) how comfortable we are with panning the view around accordingly if not all of the cockpit is visible on screen at one time.

Another factor is that, while I would agree that the proportions and scale in the images looks good to me, it also looks as if the eye viewpoint has been pulled rearward, as now the HUD text does not seem to fit within the frame the way it does at the default eye point. I too have tried pulling the viewpoint rearward in order to get a better feeling cockpit view, but unfortunately it's very easy to run into this HUD issue, where in order to see all the text you have to constantly lean forward and move left or right--which is obviously not ideal and not how the real aircraft are designed.

Lastly, it should also be noted that the numbers provided above probably only make sense for 16:9 aspect ratio monitors. I, for example, use a 32:9 monitor and am pretty sure the FOV values in the LUA files are very different.

Edited yesterday at 05:34 PM by GregP

[Bowie]

13 minutes ago, Ornithopter said:

 

 

I DID GIVE IT A TRY.  Thats the 3rd or 4th time you've said that!  Like I said, it strikes me as completely unusable and unrealistic, but if you like it that way, that's fine.

Didn't say it was easy, only that it was what the pilot would see.

The mk.1 eyeball view.

Fly and fight both prop fighters and jets, successfully.

Human sight requires that one point their nose at the new view - Pan.

It is a skill required, and the OP describes the setup that works for me.

 

Bowie

Edited yesterday at 05:38 PM by Bowie

[SlipHavoc]

9 minutes ago, Ornithopter said:

I DID GIVE IT A TRY.   Thats the 3rd or 4th time you've said that!

Actually 12 times so far by my count.  I guess when the only tool you have is a ctrl-c, everything you encounter resembles a ctrl-v. 

Edited yesterday at 05:34 PM by SlipHavoc

[Bowie]

3 minutes ago, SlipHavoc said:

Actually 12 times so far by my count, including twice in one post.  I guess when the only tool you have is a ctrl-c, everything you encounter resembles a ctrl-v. 

Can only explain it to you, can't understand it for you.

At least counting isn't an issue. 

 

Bowie

Edited yesterday at 05:36 PM by Bowie

[tekwoj]

This post reminds me of the time my friend showed me a schizophrenic's Facebook page.

[Scotch75]

So using fovcalc.app,

I plugged in my screen of 24", sitting approximately 60cm from the screen, and I chose the specific DCS FA-18C preset. It gave me settings of:

Physical FOV - Horizontal FOV 47.8°
Vertical FOV 28°.

Do these get plugged straight into the default view values (snapviews.lua)? The first value is called "Viewing Angle", then there are hfov, vfov and the eye position offsets.
Cheers!



Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

[Ornithopter]

I'm not sure this guy even passes the Turing Test.

[Bowie]

6 minutes ago, Ornithopter said:

I'm not sure this guy even passes the Turing Test.

Sure, the Chameleon Sight with Superman Vision arcade view makes the game easy and fun.

But unless one is a Chameleon, with Superman vision?

Kind of defeats the purpose of a Simulator.

Mk.1 eyeball.

 

Bowie

[Ornithopter]

Kilroy was here, Mister Roboto.

[Bowie]

15 minutes ago, Ornithopter said:

Kilroy was here, Mister Roboto.

And it's not just the cockpit view that gets distorted when the internal view is not calibrated to present 52.5 MIL/° Angle human vision.

It's the outside world view as well.

Missiles and aircraft will be distorted from their scale size at distance.

As will the boat, in Carrier Ops.

1-1/4 nm abeam, won't be visually, nor will 3/4 nm at the call.

Mk.1 eyeball determines that correctly.

 

Just point your nose at what you want to look at.

Like driving a car.

 

Bowie

 

[Phantom711]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Bowie:

52.5 MIL/° Angle human vision

I‘m still not getting, where this is allegedly coming from.

A full circle us 360deg or 6400mils (in NATO). This equals about 17 mils/deg. How would you come up with your number?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milliradian

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Bowie:

Just point your nose at what you want to look at.

This just not how human vision works. We do have peripheral vision AND we can also just move our eyes instead of the whole head. So at best you are sacrificing one real life human eye sight feature to gain another.

 

[Bowie]

4 hours ago, Phantom711 said:

I‘m still not getting, where this is allegedly coming from.

A full circle us 360deg or 6400mils (in NATO). This equals about 17 mils/deg. How would you come up with your number?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milliradian

This just not how human vision works. We do have peripheral vision AND we can also just move our eyes instead of the whole head. So at best you are sacrificing one real life human eye sight feature to gain another.

 

A MIL - is an angle that subtends 1 ft. @ 1,000 ft.

The 100 MIL F4U gunsight ring subtends 100' @ 1,000'.

Human vision - sees at an angle of 52.5 ft. @ 1,000 ft., for every degree of view.

A 56° field of view - would subtend 2940 ft. @ 1,000 ft.

52.5 MIL/° of Angle.

 

The human eye sees flat, 1X images.

That is what is distorted in the DCS Arcade view, by Increasing FoV with 'Internal View' (Zoom), and then moving the 'eyeball' to improve the effect in the cockpit.

It is still a distorted view, and nothing in it will be flat, or of accurate scale for the range, near or far.

 

Peripheral vision is a minor, detection sight, which is fine for a dome simulator, but a flat monitor runs out of real-estate.

And the eyes do move, all over the given, flat, 52.5 MIL/° of Angle view.

But a new view requires that one Look somewhere else - by pointing their nose.

 

Drive a car, and look down the road.

Can you read the instrument panel, or use the rear view or side mirrors?

Look at the instrument panel.

Can you see down the road?

We glance at these views, and then glance back - snap view/Panning.

And they are flat, 52.5 MIL/° of Angle views.

 

Bowie

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Bowie

[Bowie]

20 hours ago, Ornithopter said:

Here is what 41° fov gives me in DCS with the Hornet, and that's as far back as my head will go:

Set:

SnapViews["FA-18C_hornet"] = {
[1] = {-- player slot 1

...

[13] = {--default view
        viewAngle        = 41.000000,--FOV 44.180000(60°), 41.000000(56°), OEM 63.000000 "FA-18C_hornet"
        viewAngleVertical= 0.000000,--VFOV
        hAngle            = 0.000000,--    (View Center)/(Cam View Dn-Slow)(-30°)
        vAngle            = -30.000000,-- Cockpit View  Angle   0.000000, OEM -15.700000  (Note: reset from '0.000000,' for this exercise.
        x_trans            = 0.015000,-- Cockpit View In_Trans 0.015000(60/56°), OEM 0.130000
        y_trans            = -0.017000,-- Cockpit View Up_Trans -0.017000, OEM -0.008300
        z_trans            = 0.000000,-- Cockpit View Rt_Trans 0.000000, OEM 0.000000
        rollAngle        = 0.000000,
        cockpit_version    = 0,

This will convert the default 'center view' - to a 30° down angle view from the proper eyeball location.

Adjust 'viewAngle', (higher numbers = increased FoV) until you match this:

Then reset 'vAngle  = -30.000000,' back to 'vAngle  = 0.000000,'.

Give it a try

 

Bowie

 

[Ithronwise]

20 hours ago, Bowie said:

It is a skill required, and the OP describes the setup that works for me.

You are the OP, you simply agree with yourself and ignore everyone else's counterarguments. I'm sure this is a good way to avoid any threat to your own convictions, but it's not the right approach for a forum.