F4E A2A Refueling difficulty

[airfede78]

Hi everyone! I'm practically going crazy trying to complete an A2A refueling with the F4E.

I should start by saying that in real life I was a military pilot and flew the F16, and I can assure you that refueling with the Boom wasn't that difficult!

What I particularly notice is the lack of depth of field, and also field of view, but I don't know if any of you are the same. The biggest problem is that in VR the forward/backward signs are very difficult to see. Is it just me who's getting older, or have any of you had the same impression? If so, do you have any advice?

Thank you so much to anyone who's willing to respond.

Best regards to all Ladies and Gentlemen.

[MAXsenna]

Hi everyone! I'm practically going crazy trying to complete an A2A refueling with the F4E.
I should start by saying that in real life I was a military pilot and flew the F16, and I can assure you that refueling with the Boom wasn't that difficult!
What I particularly notice is the lack of depth of field, and also field of view, but I don't know if any of you are the same. The biggest problem is that in VR the forward/backward signs are very difficult to see. Is it just me who's getting older, or have any of you had the same impression? If so, do you have any advice?
Thank you so much to anyone who's willing to respond.
Best regards to all Ladies and Gentlemen.

I don't know. I've never tried IRL. While all pilots that come here says it's way harder in the sim. So I can't imagine doing it for real, and then trying it in the sim. Why do you think auto AAR wishes constantly pops up in the wishlist section?
On tbe other hand, I did the F-4 on my first try. I followed Jesters instructions until I got the sight picture, lined up with the yellow stripe and saw the boom in the mirror. Easy!
Heck, I even did the Harrier on my first try. Now go try that!
But to be honest. I spent a lot of time, switching between the Hornet and the Viper for hours every day, until it clicked. Now I actually use it for relaxation therapy! I find it extremely soothing!

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Volator]

In the sim F-4 it is even harder than with other modules, but I found out that listening to Jester helps a lot with staying in position. Also, tiniest throttle movements are important, and careful trimming. Once I am in position I also tend to look at a part of the tanker more than at the position lights and try to keep that part steady in relation to my canopy bow. Seat fully up helps with that.

The first attempts are hard, but at some point it will click with you and them it's routine. Hang in there, it's worth not giving up.

 

[Arecibo]

I feel stupid giving a real fighter pilot any advice, but I found using both throttles to get in position, then splitting them and just using one for the small power adjustments. I had the same issue with refuelling, but it feels amazing when it clicks.

Edited 13 hours ago by Arecibo

[TomcatFly]

I totally agree with airfede78: in VR I personally think it's too much difficult to remain in position once connected to the tanker, so being able to refuel without disconnecting many times, simply because depth of field in VR appears so compressed that it is almost impossible to see enough clearly Fwd/Aft green lamp on the bottom right side of tanker nose while Up/Down lamp is maybe little bit easier to see.

Just my 2 cents...but maybe if the tanker green alignent lights intensity was little higher it would very likely help us VR users making our life easier on refueling and so making the experience more realistic and even closer to reality

Yes, using single throttle while connected as well as correct seat height helps a little, bit - in VRc- still too unreal and difficult remaining in position once connected.

Also, once connected, even forgetting the alignment lights and taking a reference of the tanker compared to hud or canopy frame edge can help, but again - in VR and due to a too much compress depth of field - I personally feel it is still too difficult and unreal compared to what it is doing it for real..or in 2D that it's so much easier.

 

Edited 9 hours ago by TomcatFly

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Listening to Jester really helps. I mean, to the point I felt it was easier than the F-16, even. Also, altitude and speed helps.

I set up tankers for Phantoms at FL300 @ 315IAS/M0.83 and it made a huge difference. Basically, the same as an F-16 according to my documentation.

I also found it helped 'dampen' your inputs if you have things hanging off the wings, so throw on some tanks or ordnance.

 

[TomcatFly]

Input are dumped, no probs in flying the F-4 and keeping it stable...but again, I refer to VR only, in 2D it is extremely easy to refuel and remaining connected till the end.

Also, Jester is of great help and nicely made, but some times in VR I had clearly noticed his hints not "in phase" with what it is really happening in terms of up/down position and also fwd/aft, so listening only to it could be misleading sometimes, other times it looks perfect instead..so I still think that 2 lights should be much more visible in VR (intensity) and this - joined to Jester hints - will certainly make the VR refueling much more possible and realistic.

Again, as told, in 2D no problems at all in refueling...but I prefer flying VR

Anyway, I will try again for sure.

Edited 8 hours ago by TomcatFly

[Zabuzard]

Input are dumped, no probs in flying the F-4 and keeping it stable...but again, I refer to VR only, in 2D it is extremely easy to refuel and remaining connected till the end.
Also, Jester is of great help and nicely made, but some times in VR I had clearly noticed his hints not "in phase" with what it is really happening in terms of up/down position and also fwd/aft, so listening only to it could be misleading sometimes, other times it looks perfect instead..so I still think that 2 lights should be much more visible in VR (intensity) and this - joined to Jester hints - will certainly make the VR refueling much more possible and realistic.
Again, as told, in 2D no problems at all in refueling...but I prefer flying VR
Anyway, I will try again for sure.

(his comments are referring to the ideal position to be at, not the boom state itself. So if you are for example generally too much to the right but still within the box, you will get correct calls to move to the left etc, regardless of the steerable boom looking good still. once that is understood, his comments are spot on and come out instantly)

I totally agree with airfede78: in VR I personally think it's too much difficult to remain in position once connected to the tanker, so being able to refuel without disconnecting many times, simply because depth of field in VR appears so compressed that it is almost impossible to see enough clearly Fwd/Aft green lamp on the bottom right side of tanker nose while Up/Down lamp is maybe little bit easier to see.
Just my 2 cents...but maybe if the tanker green alignent lights intensity was little higher it would very likely help us VR users making our life easier on refueling and so making the experience more realistic and even closer to reality
Yes, using single throttle while connected as well as correct seat height helps a little, bit - in VRc- still too unreal and difficult remaining in position once connected.
Also, once connected, even forgetting the alignment lights and taking a reference of the tanker compared to hud or canopy frame edge can help, but again - in VR and due to a too much compress depth of field - I personally feel it is still too difficult and unreal compared to what it is doing it for real..or in 2D that it's so much easier.
 

I can only share the feedback from our SMEs who flew (or even still fly) the F4E IRL.

They said it feels pretty much spot on (minor some stuff with the tanker like the lights or the general feeling of being more attached to the boom IRL as its physically connected). And they nail the AAR pretty much every single time without issues.

Worth noting that flying the F4E is very different to some more modern aircraft (also IRL). So that might contribute as well if you have IRL experience in other aircraft. But it might also just be due to setup, for example using stick extensions and whatnot, dunno.
I cant really comment on it, just share the SME experience :)

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, TomcatFly said:

that it is almost impossible to see enough clearly Fwd/Aft green lamp

Can't comment on VR. Stop using the lights, find them pretty useless in the F-4E. But if you insist, YoYo has made a mod that makes them a little "brighter". Rather let Jester get you in position the first times. Get the sight picture and "stay there". Watch the mirror when you're plugged, and keep the boom aligned with the yellow stripe. Once you get the hang of it and remember the sight picture, it is super easy to get in position without Jester, and to stay in position. 

Cheers! 

[baco30]

17 hours ago, airfede78 said:

Hi everyone! I'm practically going crazy trying to complete an A2A refueling with the F4E.

I should start by saying that in real life I was a military pilot and flew the F16, and I can assure you that refueling with the Boom wasn't that difficult!

What I particularly notice is the lack of depth of field, and also field of view, but I don't know if any of you are the same. The biggest problem is that in VR the forward/backward signs are very difficult to see. Is it just me who's getting older, or have any of you had the same impression? If so, do you have any advice?

Thank you so much to anyone who's willing to respond.

Best regards to all Ladies and Gentlemen.

I agree that the green lights in VR are barely visible.

I can tell you what I do:

1) There is a way to add a second input bind for the pitch trim but with the response only 1/4 of the stock one. (I found it in another thread)

in the file:  "X:\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\F-4E\Input\F-4E-Pilot\keyboard\default.lua" add these 2 lines

{ name = _('Trim - Nose Up (Hat Aft) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = 0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
{ name = _('Trim - Nose Down (Hat Forward) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = -0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },

2) just before AAR I open the "Axis tune" page and lower the pitch and roll response to 25%.

Then I can make fine adjustments enough to stay connected to the boom.

Regards.

[TomcatFly]

56 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Can't comment on VR. Stop using the lights, find them pretty useless in the F-4E. But if you insist, YoYo has made a mod that makes them a little "brighter". Rather let Jester get you in position the first times. Get the sight picture and "stay there". Watch the mirror when you're plugged, and keep the boom aligned with the yellow stripe. Once you get the hang of it and remember the sight picture, it is super easy to get in position without Jester, and to stay in position. 

Cheers! 

My point is 100% on VR. In 2D it's simple.

And, believe it or not, I had situations where I was spot on, stable, but Jester was delayed so that appeared reverse to what green lights where indicating. Forget the boom.

Edited 5 hours ago by TomcatFly

[TomcatFly]

48 minutes ago, baco30 said:

I agree that the green lights in VR are barely visible.

I can tell you what I do:

1) There is a way to add a second input bind for the pitch trim but with the response only 1/4 of the stock one. (I found it in another thread)

in the file:  "X:\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\F-4E\Input\F-4E-Pilot\keyboard\default.lua" add these 2 lines

{ name = _('Trim - Nose Up (Hat Aft) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = 0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
{ name = _('Trim - Nose Down (Hat Forward) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = -0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },

2) just before AAR I open the "Axis tune" page and lower the pitch and roll response to 25%.

Then I can make fine adjustments enough to stay connected to the boom.

Regards.

This is definitely interesting!! Thank you!

[MAXsenna]

My point is 100% on VR. In 2D it's simple.
And, believe it or not, I had situations where I was spot on, stable, but Jester was delayed so that appeared reverse to what green lights where indicating. Forget the boom.

Aha! Get it!
ED should add "IFLOLS" for the boom tankers. That would probably help a lot of users without adding too much "unrealism".

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

ED should add "IFLOLS" for the boom tankers

As long as I can turn it off, sure

IRL the lights are barely visible as well according to the various SMEs here on the forum.

[TomcatFly]

14 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Aha! Get it!
ED should add "IFLOLS" for the boom tankers. That would probably help a lot of users without adding too much "unrealism".

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Yep!

ED and/or HB, if you're listening, please consider to add some kind of "IFLOS" (supercarrier style) to help us VR users on this specific kind of AAR.

It's not unrealism, but a way to make VR experience much better.

As already told, no probs at all doing AAR in 2D.

Edited 4 hours ago by TomcatFly

[Zabuzard]

I agree that the green lights in VR are barely visible.
I can tell you what I do:
1) There is a way to add a second input bind for the pitch trim but with the response only 1/4 of the stock one. (I found it in another thread)
in the file:  "X:\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\F-4E\Input\F-4E-Pilot\keyboard\default.lua" add these 2 lines
{ name = _('Trim - Nose Up (Hat Aft) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = 0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
{ name = _('Trim - Nose Down (Hat Forward) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = -0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
2) just before AAR I open the "Axis tune" page and lower the pitch and roll response to 25%.
Then I can make fine adjustments enough to stay connected to the boom.
Regards.

(JFYI regarding point 1. This is not the intended way and it will stop working at some point. Instead, use the Special Setting "Stick Pitch Smoothing Period".)

[MAXsenna]

As long as I can turn it off, sure
IRL the lights are barely visible as well according to the various SMEs here on the forum.

For sure. I don't need it myself, but it could help in new modules/new users to get the sight picture more confidently, then turn it off.
I'll wager if they implemented something like this for both boomers and shutes, we'd get rid of the endless requests for simple/auto AAR.
It easy for me now to say it's "easy", while there was a time I thought I'd never get it. But I had the time and took the effort, and decided to get it. I wouldn't mind if another user got it a little easier.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[TomcatFly]

32 minutes ago, Zabuzard said:

2 hours ago, baco30 said:

I agree that the green lights in VR are barely visible.
I can tell you what I do:
1) There is a way to add a second input bind for the pitch trim but with the response only 1/4 of the stock one. (I found it in another thread)
in the file:  "X:\DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\F-4E\Input\F-4E-Pilot\keyboard\default.lua" add these 2 lines
{ name = _('Trim - Nose Up (Hat Aft) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = 0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
{ name = _('Trim - Nose Down (Hat Forward) * Slow'), up = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, pressed = iCommandPlaneTrimPitch, value_up = 0, value_pressed = -0.25, category = { categories.flight_controls, categories.stick } },
2) just before AAR I open the "Axis tune" page and lower the pitch and roll response to 25%.
Then I can make fine adjustments enough to stay connected to the boom.
Regards.

(JFYI regarding point 1. This is not the intended way and it will stop working at some point. Instead, use the Special Setting "Stick Pitch Smoothing Period".)

Yes, I already use a little delay in that pitch smoothing period, but it does not have any influence on the pitch trim sensitivity that, in my opinion, remains extremely sensitive. 

 

And anyway, in VR the problem it's not at all the pitch/roll sensitivities, nor trim sensitivity.  But what's been explained at the beginning of this post.

Edited 3 hours ago by TomcatFly

[Zabuzard]

Yes, I already use a little delay in that pitch smoothing period, but it does not have any influence on the pitch trim sensitivity that, in my opinion, remains extremely sensitive. 
 
And anyway, in VR the problem it's not at all the pitch/roll sensitivities, nor trim sensitivity.  But what's been explained at the beginning of this post.

(It was super sensitive IRL, so that is correct behavior. Im not judging though and also dont mind giving "easy options". Just wanted to mention that the approach with the 0.25 bind will eventually not work anymore)