Ekran and Rotor Anti-Ice

[Sm0k3y]

After many hours practising to control this twitchy beast I decided to take on a mission.

 

"Altitude" I believe it was called.

 

All was going well, started to get a bit of altitude etc, and just as I remembered a developer hint that was in the briefing regarding anti-icing the Ekran popped up and said Rotor Anti-Ice On. So I switch it on and the message disappears. All is well

 

But then the message appeared again.. Im thinking Ekran either wants me to turn it off and on again for the hell of it or its not on properly. (Top panel says it was on)

 

Why would I receive Enable Rotor Anti-Ice message twice?

 

Thanks in advanced

[104th_Crunch]

Rather than the messages stating that you need to turn on anti-ice and you have it off, the message means that anti-ice should be in use. It doesn't care if you have it on or off. That's the way I understand it.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Crunch

[Feuerfalke]

+1 what Crunch said.

 

 

The warning is because circumstances are detected, that need the Anti-Ice to be activated. It doesn't check whether you have AntiIce already on or not.

 

If the message is repeated, it's most likely because you left the icing-altitude/circumstances and then re-entered it again.

[Sm0k3y]

Yea thats what I figured, that it doesnt care whether its on or not the fact still remains it needs to be on and its being a helpful lil Ekran by reminding me.

 

Im still trying to complete that Altitude mission :noexpression:

Just now I made it to the LZ, although Left Engine failed afterwards for some reason, I flew very gently to LZ, managed to restart it ok (after thinking it was stuffed and tried to make it back on 1 engine). But then wingie states SAM 11 o'clock! (After just exiting the valley) Holy left engine over-torque batman! I gotta get outta here! He engages but gets blown to smitherines, meanwhile im trying to hit the dirt but get hit twice by SAMs which you can imagine did not go down to well for the wellbeing of the heli.

 

Why did the SAMs not go for the transports? as they were ahead of me due to me lagging behind for half the trip on only 1 engine.

[Sm0k3y]

WHAT THE HELL!!!

 

3rd attempt on Altitude mission

 

1km out from LZ "Watch Ekran"

 

Ekran says ELEC ON ACCUM (or something along those lines)

 

And I plummit like a brick

 

Sudden and random electrical failure??

 

Any ideas?

 

My EEG Power limiter never kicked in once during flight

I tried to maintain 900 degrees EGT, but for some reason I loose electrical power and plummit to a firey death AAARRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

[EtherealN]

You didn't save a track file, by any chance? That would make it a lot easier to figure out what happened. :)

[Sm0k3y]

Yea if you wouldnt mind reviewing it for me?!

 

Crash happens very close to LZ so a bit of time accel is in order here.

Shortly after the transports radio in "flaring"

 

That would be great if you could tell me what happened.

 

Basiclly once the transports disappear over the horizon at LZ, reduce time accel.

 

I thought it might have been accidental button press but after reviewing track I cant see anything important switched off.

 

Nor any visible damage so I dont think it was enemy ground units.

Altitude WTF HAPPENED!.trk

[EtherealN]

I'll have a look. :)

[Frederf]

Smokey, Elec on Accum means the engine wasn't putting out enough AC electrical power. This is because the RPM dropped below the red line. There are two likely reasons it did this. Either:

 

1. You commanded a lot of blade angle with the cyclic and the engine wasn't powerful enough to keep the rotor RPM up.

 

It's important to remember that hovering at high altitude is impossible but you can get along OK at 130 kmph instead. Best climb speed gives the most lift for how much the engine has to work so the engine is able to keep the RPM up. If the RPM starts to drop and the zebra light comes on then you have to ask less of the engine to speed up the rotor by diving, lowering collective, etc.

 

Also make sure to set your throttles to Auto (2 steps up from minimum). Stranger things have been forgotten.

 

Or

 

2. The engine failed due to icing.

 

When EKRAN tells you you're in an icing hazard condition, put on the rotor anti-ice and the engine inlet ice protection. I used to fail the Altitude mission predictably because I would turn on only the rotor anti-ice since that's all EKRAN advised but you need the engine inlet ice protection too (dust/ice switch to the full down position).

[Sm0k3y]

Smokey, Elec on Accum means the engine wasn't putting out enough AC electrical power. This is because the RPM dropped below the red line. There are two likely reasons it did this. Either:

 

1. You commanded a lot of blade angle with the cyclic and the engine wasn't powerful enough to keep the rotor RPM up.

 

It's important to remember that hovering at high altitude is impossible but you can get along OK at 130 kmph instead. Best climb speed gives the most lift for how much the engine has to work so the engine is able to keep the RPM up. If the RPM starts to drop and the zebra light comes on then you have to ask less of the engine to speed up the rotor by diving, lowering collective, etc.

 

Also make sure to set your throttles to Auto (2 steps up from minimum). Stranger things have been forgotten.

 

Or

 

2. The engine failed due to icing.

 

When EKRAN tells you you're in an icing hazard condition, put on the rotor anti-ice and the engine inlet ice protection. I used to fail the Altitude mission predictably because I would turn on only the rotor anti-ice since that's all EKRAN advised but you need the engine inlet ice protection too (dust/ice switch to the full down position).

 

 

I think your spot on with both those points. I didnt think about engine inlet ice protection. And I guess im being a bit too demanding on the poor engines. Basicly at those high altitudes I should consider 130kph a "speed limit" so to speak? I normally wait for Max IAS warning before considering any loss of RPM as a possibility.

 

Thanks for the input Frederf

 

And thanks EthrealN for checking that track. Come to think of it I think you might come to the same conclusion. Over worked engine - loss of RPM - loss of AC current?

Wait a minute.. I thought high RPMs were needed to drive the generator?

Why couldnt the batteries just kick in?

 

Just happened again... This time as soon as I gave the tiniest bit more collective, mustve been just on the lowest RPM before I gave more collective.

[159th_Viper]

Also remember to toggle your Pitot Heat Switches 'On'.

[EtherealN]

Batteries-only isn't enough to power all systems, you need the generators to have everything going properly, and therefore you need to have the rotors turning fast enough.

 

On speed limits, 130km/h is the speed at which you have the most lift - which means you not only climb fastest but also can achieve the highest altitude. If at extreme altitude deviation in either direction - faster or slower - will cause you to lose altitude. The reasons for this is a combination of increasing lift with forward airspeed (L=½ClPV²A explains that, if you are a math geek) and the fact that you haven't hit the drag wall yet. Increased airspeed affects lift by a square as you can see on the V² in the equation (V=velocity), but air resistance also increases very fast with airspeed. The "best balance" is at 130km/h.

 

So while it's easier to think that helicopters should have the best lift at hover, this isn't the case.

 

But yes, it is quite important to monitor your RPM gauge (forward left panel) when operating at high altitudes.

 

Haven't had a chance to view the track file yet, but I'll try to get it done sometime during the day.

 

EDIT: Btw, Viper, did you see how I managed to ask for a track file before you did? You're losing your edge, man...

[159th_Viper]

EDIT: Btw, Viper, did you see how I managed to ask for a track file before you did? You're losing your edge, man...

 

Sniped!

 

:D

[slug88]

Haven't watched the track either, but just to make sure, you did remember to turn on your AC generators, correct?

[Sm0k3y]

Also remember to toggle your Pitot Heat Switches 'On'.

 

Pitot Heat Switches ae? Hmmm back to the manual lol, have no idea what they are for.

[Sm0k3y]

Haven't watched the track either, but just to make sure, you did remember to turn on your AC generators, correct?

 

Didnt need to as heli was already started at beginning of mission.

[Sm0k3y]

Im quite sure it was simply low RPM as this time I kept a close eye on it and made it safely home.

 

However mission was only %50.0 complete ??

And so did not count in log book :mad:

 

I can only guess it was because my wingman didnt land, just kept flying around FARP aimlessly

 

EDIT: Thanks for all your help guys. Would still be trying and failing miserably if you werent for your help

Edited November 7, 2009 by Sm0k3y

[ARM505]

I'm still at a bit of a loss here - does BS want all the anti-ice on based purely on temperature or does the real world condition of 'visible moisture' AND temperature also apply? (er, and of course the helo must actually be IN that visible moisture)

[Sm0k3y]

I'm still at a bit of a loss here - does BS want all the anti-ice on based purely on temperature or does the real world condition of 'visible moisture' AND temperature also apply? (er, and of course the helo must actually be IN that visible moisture)

 

I would've thought it was just a temperature thing. I cant see moisture doing any damage to rotor/engines. But I dunno, Im no avionics expert and have barely scratched the surface of the manual. (Which Im sure an explanation would be in there)

[Feuerfalke]

I would've thought it was just a temperature thing. I cant see moisture doing any damage to rotor/engines. But I dunno, Im no avionics expert and have barely scratched the surface of the manual. (Which Im sure an explanation would be in there)

 

They don't do a "visible damage". Especially where large differences in airpressures occur, the moisture in the air lays down on material.

 

For your Ka-50 flying in winter or crossing a mountain, that is mostly the rotor, the engine and the forward parts of your aircraft. In real life you can see the ice building up, but even before that, they cause a danger.

 

The most critical part is, that they change the airflow over the rotors, thus cause them to work less efficiently the more ice they collect up to the point where they can no longer carry the helo. Heating or mechanical means prevent this from happening. That's rotor-anti-icing.

 

The second critical effect is on the engines. Ice is building at the engine intakes and in some parts of the engine itself. As a result the engine is literally choked and will eventually run slower or even fail.

If you don't have a constant eye on engine RPM, the first thing you notice is a blackout of your electronic systems, as the RPM of the engine is too low to power the generator.

You have to use engine-de-ice to prevent this from happening.

Also note, that these switches have two positions. One protects the engine from dust (e.g. from flying low and sucking in the dust you kicked up from the ground) and the other position is deicing. On the overhead-control-panel you can see either deice or dust-protection lit.

 

The thirst impact ice has is on the fuselage itself, especially the forward parts. As the pitot and airflow-sensors are position here, you have to switch on pitot-heat or risk the ice on the pitot to falsify your airspeed-readings. In real life, this little thing has caused many tragedies in civilian and military aviation.

[Jrod]

Batteries-only isn't enough to power all systems, you need the generators to have everything going properly, and therefore you need to have the rotors turning fast enough.

 

 

As a side-note, the batteries only provide DC power while the generators provide AC. And, as stated above, one OR the other is not enough to run the acft.

[enigma6584]

After reading through this thread and suffering the same problems as Sm0k3y, I have just got to say...Damn but I love this sim!:pilotfly:

[Frederf]

Sm0key, considering you started with a "prepped bird" I'm going to assume it wasn't a weird switch issue from start up.

 

It sounds like you were flying around all happy and the engine failed all at once right? which really suggests the engine inlet ice protection thing. You didn't just dip the rotor RPM too low due to maneuvering and had a loss of lift, the engine failed which means of course the RPM dropped.

 

I think you would have continued to fly just fine if the engine hadn't failed due to icing. It's good to remember about the importance of keeping the RPM up and 130kmph for best lift performance but at the end of the day nothing went wrong except the engine died.

[drhow]

When EKRAN tells you you're in an icing hazard condition, put on the rotor anti-ice and the engine inlet ice protection. I used to fail the Altitude mission predictably because I would turn on only the rotor anti-ice since that's all EKRAN advised but you need the engine inlet ice protection too (dust/ice switch to the full down position).

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the de-icing setting has this switch in the up position, down is only dust protection.

[Sm0k3y]

Sm0key, considering you started with a "prepped bird" I'm going to assume it wasn't a weird switch issue from start up.

 

It sounds like you were flying around all happy and the engine failed all at once right? which really suggests the engine inlet ice protection thing. You didn't just dip the rotor RPM too low due to maneuvering and had a loss of lift, the engine failed which means of course the RPM dropped.

 

I think you would have continued to fly just fine if the engine hadn't failed due to icing. It's good to remember about the importance of keeping the RPM up and 130kmph for best lift performance but at the end of the day nothing went wrong except the engine died.

 

Yea it must have been engine ice buildup as I didnt fly it like I stole it.